1. #1
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    Default Quick Attack Mini Pumper Specs

    Looking for some good (proven) recommendations for specs, for a Mini Pumper for hard to reach residents, and extrication response. Any help would be appreciated.

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    Since it's your first post, let me throw out a couple of recommendations.

    First, post this in either the Apparatus forum (where guys talk about apparatus more often and will see it more readily) or in the Grants/Funding forum (where several guys who have gotten grants for these and recently specced these trucks hang out) and you'll get more replies.

    Also, a bit more information on what you're wanting to do with this rig. Is it something you're going to use to get into remote areas and fight structure fires? Something you'll use more for rescue and brush fires, maybe the occassional structure if you absolutely can't get to it any other way? What all you want to put on it equipment-wise, etc. Just something that gives a guy a direction of what you're looking at, as quick-attacks and mini-pumpers covers quite the realm of options.

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    Thanks for the suggestions, new at this posting thing.

    Would like to use the mini-pumper for vehicle accident responses, extrication equipment on board with suppression capabilities. Hard to reach residential homes a lot in my area of operation. Truck with CAFS and largest pump volume talked to a few factory reps but, I wanted to throw this idea out to the experts, (The guys and gals that use them everyday) for true workable ideas.

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    Grim this is the specs we have for our mini. Its been a very nice truck.

    http://www.spencermfginc.com/trucks....re%20Marquette
    Pere Marquette Fire Department
    "First in Last Out Crew"
    Engine 2911

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    Take a look at our rig, it's on this page, third post down, #103. The post five down from that one, same page has more detail on our specs on it.

    You've also got the design like 2947 posted, that is more like a pumper.

    One place you could start is going to different mfg's websites and see what they've got that looks in line with what you're after. Not only do you have the big guys, you've got places like Unruh, Fouts Bros., Southern, Wolverine, and others that concentrate more on these smaller rigs and have gotten damn good and building them and putting out-of-the-box options into their designs.

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    Sorry had a trip, (EMS) both of those are great looking trucks, I've been talking with a few differant manufactures, Pierce, KME, Rosenbaugh and a couple of others, all have offered to write the specs for me. What do you guys think. I'm afraid that if they take to much control of the spec writing they may create an apparatus that only fits what they offer. And not what's going to genuinely work for my response area (rural farmland, long driveways hilly terrain, etc. ,state park, small town USA) Leaning toward a Ford 550 with rear mount pump panel. You know the deal.

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    Take a look at the HME RAT. It is a short wheel based pumper that will out turn a F550. It also can be equipped with a pump up to 1500 gpm and CAFs. It can also be built with pump and roll up to I believe 1250 gpm.

    It can be built on a commercial or Custom Chassis.

    Nope I don't sell them. I used to, but I got out of the fire apparatus business.

    If you are not comfortable writing a spec write up a detailed wish list and submit that to those offering to write a spec. That way they and you know that at least to start you are on the same page. Those that can't or won't build what you want need to be eliminated right off the bat. Keep in mind if everyone but one company says they can't do something that should be a HUGE WAKE UP that what you want isn't practical or even possible.

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    Thanks, for all the info guys I truly appreciate it, being a newbie (computer challenged) I was'nt sure what to expect when posting, the help and info has been great!

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    grim,

    Check out this website:

    http://www.classicfirellc.com/frfu.asp

    Has specs, photos and literature for the type of vehicle that we purchased. Built on an F550.

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    That's close nice truck here are some specifics let me know if I need to add some stuff or maybe remove some stuff. What do you guys think?

    1. Crew Cab - 3 to 4 air pack seats with, complete communication for all firefighters, front mount nozzle witn interior controls.
    2. A CAFS system with rear control panel for scene visibility, at least 300 plus gallon tank (What are the current numbers with CAFS 300 = ??)
    need a good size pump to maintain ISO requirements etc.
    3. Minimum of two 1 3/4 preconnet attack lines 2 1/2 preconnect supply, suction.
    4. Compartments designed for extrication equipment, Hose bed for relay pumping, 5" supply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grimfire View Post
    That's close nice truck here are some specifics let me know if I need to add some stuff or maybe remove some stuff. What do you guys think?

    1. Crew Cab - 3 to 4 air pack seats with, complete communication for all firefighters, front mount nozzle witn interior controls.
    2. A CAFS system with rear control panel for scene visibility, at least 300 plus gallon tank (What are the current numbers with CAFS 300 = ??)
    need a good size pump to maintain ISO requirements etc.
    3. Minimum of two 1 3/4 preconnet attack lines 2 1/2 preconnect supply, suction.
    4. Compartments designed for extrication equipment, Hose bed for relay pumping, 5" supply.

    A RAT on a custom Chasis could give you seating for 5 or 6. AND a RATED fire pump.

    For your pre-connects and your front mount nozzle spec a flow and acceptable friction loss, not pipe size. An example would be 1 3/4 inch pre-connects will flow a mximum of 250 gpm with an internal piping friction loss of no greater than 20 psi. The numbers are just an example, insert your own.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 01-19-2009 at 07:37 PM.

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    As somebody who has been down this road ....

    Be specific as to what you want your truck to do. it's very easy to overfill a mini-pumper and soon you either have a truck that is overweight and handles like crap with a whole range of weight-related maintainence issues, or a truck that is no longer "mini" and is having a hard time getting down those roads where the hard to reach residents live. This is especially important if snow or soft/muddy roads to get back to those hard to reach areas are an issue.

    4 doors would ne nice, but do you need a crew space? What is your response like? Do you still need bodies to roll tankers or engines? Do you have a pickup or other vehicle that can roll with the mini to MVAs and fill out the crew.

    How much firefighting vs. extrication capability are you looking for?

    Not trying to rain on your parade but just hoping to make you think about realistically what you want this truck to do.

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    My thoughts would be trying to carry a load of 5" hose on top of everything else will turn the mini into the need for a full size engine. Look at what Blanchat mfg. has to offer in the Minuteman series. I have talked to them on a brush truck and they were willing to work to build the truck we wanted. Like some others have said be careful with a mini, it can quickly become overlaoaded.

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    We bought a 2003 E-One Mini pump with 750 GPM and 240 tank. It is mounted on a F-550 w wheel drive chassis with 2 doors. It has a manual transmission. We carry a holmatro combi tool and spreaders. We also have a battery & Elec sawzalls. It carries a 5000 watt honda gen with 2 telescopic lights and 2 portable tripod lights 1000 watts each.
    We carry 500ft of 3 inch supply hose with 200ft of 2 1/2 as a preconnect. it also has 2 1 3/4 crosslays, with a 100ft trashline in the extended front bumper. It also has 2 SCBA's and 2 spare bottles.


    If I find the specs I will email them to you.

    So far it has been a great truck.

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    My response area is 3/4 farmland with some state forest area, We will be replacing a larger engine, my initial thought is a truck that can provide good suppression capabilities for structure fires providing a rapid response for quick knockdown. And respond with our Medic to accident scenes. The posting on limited manpower fits my department like it does most. Snow covered and/or muddy describe most of the long driveways. In some situations even now all the seats are not filled. Kinda depends on the call. Structure Fires I'll have four maybe five, (not enouph for 2 in 2 out) But 2 or 3 for Extrication, 2 on a medic. 2nd Alarm is a good 20 minutes out. Our initial response (With all Call ins) Is 1 3,000gal tanker, 1 1250gpm Kenworth (Pierce) Engine and a Rescue/Air Unit. Problem is some driveways are a challenge for our Engine so relay operations are set up on the pavement and our wild fire unit is utilized for relay 300gal skid unit 20class A foam tank and a 500gpm diesel pump on a pick up, set up for wildland fires. Like to have a little more versatility without going overboard of course.

    Again this site is great, this is a Fire Service "Think Tank". Thanks to All of you,

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    We recently signed a contract for a quick attack truck on a GMC 5500 4x4 chassis. Will carry 300 gallons of water 20 gallons of class A foam for a 60 cfm CAFS system. We opted out of the front bumper and crew cab due to overall length and decided go with a 12ft body and get more compartment space. If you send me your email address i can send you a copy of our specs.

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    So you already have a brush truck that can access the fire and on your narrow roads and start operations with 300 gallons of water.

    It has a 500 gpm pump on the brush truck which is adequate for 2-3 1.75" lines, especially if supplied under pressure.Do you have anything bigger than booster line on it? Is there a place you could put 1 or 2 1.75" lines?

    You already have a structural engine for "hardtop" structural fires.

    My take would be what you need is a 4WD vehicle that can lay line, and act as a "tool cabinet" for those backroad structure fires as well as act as a tool cabinet for extrication ops.

    5" line, ladders, SCBA structural tools and maybe a few hundred feet of 1.75" line to support structural ops. Extrication tools and equipment to perform extrication ops.
    Basically a service truck water water supply capabilities (w/ the 5" hose).

    Use your existing engine for fire suppression at MVAs. 2 man cab, as that will still give you a short wheel based truck which can get in to those tight places and you won't overload the chassis. It sounds like a 4-door cab would be wasted if you don't fill it, and if you do, other peices may not have staffing to roll.

    The department next to us when I was in VT had a lot of narrow driveways leading into summer camps on the lakefront. They set up a vehicle with 4' , 800' of 1.75" and 400' of 2.50 line and a manifold as well as full compliment of structural tools and SCBA. They would lay the line, and the engine at the road would pump to the manifold. They would connect what hose they needed and they were good to go.

    You could add rescue tools to that.

    It's an option to think about.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-19-2009 at 09:29 PM.

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    My neighboring department has a mini pumper(?) built on an F550 with a 4 door cab and if I remember right A 1000gpm pump. It is loaded to the gills with 5 inch hose, a 28 foot 3 piece extension ladder, extrication tools, scba, preconnects, a top mount deluge, and a slew of other firefighting tools. It is overloaded. They have had to have it resprung AND added helpers to get it to sit level.

    My point? The biggest mistake people make is decide they need a small, agile, get into tight places engine and then try and load it up with the same anmount of equipment they would put on a full sized rig.

    Seriously look at what this rig will be doing. Does it need 5 inch hose? How long will the lays be? Maybe 3 or 4 inch hose is enough? It would be lighter for the same amount of hose. Will it primarily be used for fighting fire or extrication?

    Take a serious look at this and don't make a mistake that will haunt your FD for 20 or 30 years.

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    You guys are right, but you know how it is, you sit down with the truck commitee, with a lot of different views. You start with a mini pumper and end up with a quint.

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    I'm going to throw some things out that we learned when we did ours, on top (and probably repeating) some of what the other guys said. Keep in mind, this is our experience, and I'm not trying to bash or discount anyone.

    First of all, get a "committee" of guys who have a solid understanding of how your department operates and sit down together. Figure out exactly what you need this rig to do, and then what you want it to do on top of that.

    Get a copy of NFPA 1901 and read the applicable portions of it. That includes the area where it helps with the speccing process and even gives estimated weights on various items.

    Figure out what you need this thing to carry, then what you might want it to carry on top of that. If it's on another truck that's going to show up at the same incidents, why put it on this one, unless there's a good reason for doing so.

    By the time you're done with all this evaluating, you'll have a pretty good mental image of your truck drawn out. You'd probably even be able to sketch it out, including compartments and where everything's going to be in those compartments.

    However, resist the urge to put something on there because it might be nice to have. I.e., if you need a PTO/drivetrain powered pump, go for it. If you don't, why spend the extra money that could go toward something you'll use more. If you need a generator, figure out which is going to work best, not which one is the "coolest" and has the most features (hard urge to fight, it's like putting a fried twinkie in front of a guy that's been on a diet of nothing but grilled chicken and veggies for a month ).

    Just to share a bit of our experience, we found out that what we really needed was a truck that would fight grassland fires and occassionally a fire on a dirt/logging road, not one that went into the brush. We definitely needed something with 4x4 and 300 or so gallons of water. We didn't necessarily need a full-sized pump, so we found a large self-powered pump and plumbed it into the fuel tank on the chassis. We couldn't come up with a good reason to need a diesel engine, so we went with a gas burner and saved about $8K. We also wanted this thing to serve as our ISO "Service Truck" and a small rescue, so we figured in storage for 6 SCBA and spare bottles, a hydraulic generator, traffic control supplies, HRT's with hose reels, etc. We also decided that with our purposes, a four-door chassis was overkill and would elongate the truck enough we were concerned. Besides, we would rarely actual fill the truck with how many guys typically show up at the station and taking into consideration the seating on our other apparatus.

    Be careful about someone speccing it for you. Some places like to add things to the specs that are only offered by them, and therefore eliminates other manufacturers. Not that they all do, just keep an eye on them.

    Also, don't rule out the smaller guys. What I'm about to tell you was reiterated by sales reps from two of the big players in apparatus manufacturing during our process. The big boys are specialized at building big trucks (aerials, pumpers, tankers). When they get something like this, they have to adjust their line. It's not that they can't do it and can't do a good job of it, it's just not what they do all the time. These two reps actually recommended that I look at a smaller mfg. that specializes in that type of apparatus, telling me I'd pay less (ended up considerably less, like $15K less) and get just as good, if not better product, because that's what they do all the time. We also got ours delivered in a fraction of the time the big boys quoted us (3 months vs. 14).

    Like some of the guys are saying, watch out that you don't spec too small of an apparatus. We didn't go with the Ford or Sterling chassis for a number of reasons, the biggest being the size factor (GVW, ground clearance, body vs. chassis height). We were tempted to go with something like an International/Freightliner, but it was going to cost us a fortune to get the 4x4, which had to be added by an outfitter. We ended up with the GMC 5500, which fit our needs perfectly. It may not fit everyone's needs, though, as this rig's designed for our department and our operations.

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    Cost is a huge consideration, ballpark hoping to get a workable mini for $130 to $160,000

    A little concerned on firefighter safety, the two in two out perspective with a single cab config, but I see the point.

    Thanks for taking the time to answer this post.
    I plan to use all the information I get to, approach our township officials with our specs. And try to get approval for the right truck, (toolbox)
    Kind of reminds me of asking my parents for money and the keys to the car when I was a kid.

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