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  1. #1
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    Default Interior Fire Attack Sequence

    Scenario:
    You enter the fire room, conditions are, limited visibility, moderate to high heat, you cannot determine seat of the fire, what nozzle and nozzle pattern works best for you.

    I've found in moderate to high heat conditions the circular pattern with a couple of sweeps across the floor helps to control the displacement of the thermal layer, first the circled pattern cools the room to prevent flashover, then the sweeps across the floor help to push the thermal imbalance back toward the ceiling, making the floor cooler. I prefer a straight stream with a fog nozzle.

    I've heard many differant opinions from full fog pattern, to straight bore nozzles being used, Z patterns and many other Ideas.

    Does your departments have SOP's, for initial attack or does the nozzleman make the determination.

    Please excuse my spelling and take it easy on me, I'm new to posting and am just looking for some thoughts and suggestions.

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    Why are you opening the nozzle prior to finding the seat of the fire? A burst or two to prevent flashover, but I would not open her up without knowing the fire's location. I say push on and locate the seat of the fire.

    We run all fog nozzles set to a "power cone" on all preconnects.

    Hopefully others will pitch in.
    FF/Paramedic

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    How big is the "Room?" Bedroom? Livingroom? Office space? Stock room? What? I think there simply isn't enough info to answer your question with any type of serious answer.

    Answer that and I will chime in with my answer. I will tell you this though. I would NEVER, let me repeat that, NEVER, use a fog pattern in that circumstance. Other than perhaps to apply a few second or less narrow fog bursts into the atmosphere for cooling to try and prevent a flashover. I absolutely am opposed to the use of fog for interior fire attack ops. Steam production, dropping of the thermal layer to the floor, and frankly the phoney "It offers protection" make it a wrong choice for me. Someone explain to me how applying a stream in an interior situation the way you would in a gas fed fire will offer protection. As you create more steam you bring more heat down on yourself.

    Straight stream pattern on a combo nozzle or smooth bore nozzle, that is my choice.

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    Talking

    Bare with me, I understand your point, believe me, a few years ago during a "basic" fire class, I was assisting an Instructor and a few other guest instuctors on a training fire held after dark, truly limited vis. and the actual fire was extending into a larger room, good smoke, and the seat of the fire was indeed deeper into the structure, in a nook. Heat was building and the thermal layer was starting to drop. One instructor jerked the nozzle out of the hands of this young fire fighter and screamed at him, completely embarassing him, and said just the opposite, and demanded a wide fog pattern, and to roll the nozzle (???) which I personally did'nt completely agree with. Something I have against being a lobster. That's story kinda stuck with me and I researched various, concepts both with straight bore and fog nozzles, patterns in every letter of the alphabet. And a lot of theories on thermal layering and FF safety.

    My department is currently re-vamping our SOP's with several new firefighters and I am curious what some of you would suggest.

    Like I said before I'm new to posting, .

    We use both the fog nozzle and the Saberjet for attack, but may change that line-up do to the obvious


    I have a another post on min-pumpers and all the information I've found so far is excellant, on every subject I could think of. Most of the people on this forum from Firehouse really, have a lot of great info. (Smart People) This is like a think tank for the fire service.

    I appreciate your reply! And invite any comments and recommendations, even some critism. I'm lifelong student, been in the fire/ems service for years and learn new stuff everyday. Or maybe just starting to forget stuff. I can't remember. Thanks again!

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    Just like TNFF319 said, you don't want to open up and spray from the time you enter until the time you reach the fire. For one that makes no sense and another it's creating worthless water damage. But a good way to check for flashover is spray a straight stream for a couple seconds at the ceiling above you, if it all comes back down your good, but if nothing comes back down, or a lot less than what you sprayed, the temp. at the top of the room is vaporizing the water, not good. Reading smoke conditions when you pull up and knowing the building construction and the chances for higher Btu's, will also help to tip off the chances of a flashover when your making your attack. And just like FryedUp posted, fog paterns create a lot of steam. And that will make conditions hotter, especially if there is no form of vertical ventilation or at least horizontal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNFF319 View Post
    Why are you opening the nozzle prior to finding the seat of the fire? A burst or two to prevent flashover, but I would not open her up without knowing the fire's location. I say push on and locate the seat of the fire.
    First thing I thought of as well. Burst here and there into the ceiling to cool enough to prevent flash, and VENTILATE. The circular motion the OP described WOULD seem to upset thermal balance to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    http://www.fireengineering.com/videos/index.html

    Go to that link, then click on training minutes, season 1 then scroll down to fire wrapping and sweeping. What I think you are talking about is towards the end. This is good when you found the fire and fighting it, but not just advancing through the house.
    Knowledge is the difference between KNOWING and GUESSING

    "You guys are good, but you'll never invent anything-it's all been done before."

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    Yes that is closer to what I was getting at, sorry I was'nt able to articulate that clearly enouph. Getting the right words through this key pad is a little tougher than I thought.

    Fire Attack is situational to a great degree, but as we all know, when it really hits the fan all we have is our training and experience. And experience equals options,

    Recommend a nozzle, the Saberjet Fog/Straightbore is a little to much for a controlled interior attack,

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    Quote Originally Posted by grimfire View Post
    Recommend a nozzle, the Saberjet Fog/Straightbore is a little to much for a controlled interior attack,
    I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this statement. The only line that's "too much" in my book is the one that cannot be advanced or operated safely by the number of firefighters you have on it. That being said, I'm not a real fan of the Saberjets. If you want to use smoothbores, than get them. If you want fog, use a fixed gallonage fog. If you want an automatic, check your brain for damage.

    TNFF319: "We run all fog nozzles set to a "power cone" on all preconnects."

    What's the "power cone" setting? Our motto is RIGHT is RIGHT, Left for Lobster. All nozzles are set at straight stream and used that way until hydraulic ventilation is used (if at all).

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    The Saber is a great nozzle for certain applications, but with the their being two choices (fog/straight bore) one which does not cancle out the other, newer FF,s in and excited state of mind may have a little difficulty. I've noticed that to get the fog and straight bore action to work well pump pressure has to be a little on the high side. Not to mention if your aid companies are not familiar with the operation of nozzle it can be a challenge. My attempt is to keep it as simple as possible. As you said straight stream with the fog for ventilation or protection is the preferred choice. I Considered putting saber's on a secondary line for car fires, and other such instances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grimfire View Post
    My attempt is to keep it as simple as possible. As you said straight stream with the fog for ventilation or protection is the preferred choice.
    I like simple. My only issue with fog is the part where some argue the "protection" value of the fog pattern. I think a smoothbore stream from further away provides more protection than pulling in tons of CFM on a fog pattern to "cool" the are around the nozzleman. The "protective" fog pattern often pulls heat and fire from above up and over the pattern and down onto the firefighter. Not to mention that with adequate ventilation you likely wouldn't need the protective fog, and lacking this, there is no place for all the air your introducing to go but back onto you.

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    I found that sometimes you have to fight your way to the seat of the fire, unless only one room is involved, and depending on the intensity, fire moving through a couple of rooms the start point (Cig in the Couch) may be a bit of a fight to get to, flameover, (not flashover) into adjacent rooms (obvious) riding in the smoke and gases at the ceiling level. Your right venting is the key, but sometimes fire control and ventilation occur simultaneously, unless you trip over the PPV fan and knock over the extension ladder to the roof, right?

    Does it bother you when exterior teams hit you on the inside with their nozzle stream.
    Maybe its just me.

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    A "power cone" is a narrow fog pattern. I usually just twist the nozzle and run a straight stream. I can't convince the powers that be that we should have a smoothbore preconnect. I also want a 2 1/2 preconnect for all the defensive ops we do but thats a no go too.


    You should whoop someones ***** if the spray a line inside while crews are inside. Thats a lack of discipline. People can't stand to not look cool. They have to have the nozzle to be a fireman.
    FF/Paramedic

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    Default fog we don't need no stinkin...

    We've always been trained not to use fog for interior attack due to concerns over steam burns. Our primary residential attack knobs are TFTs but we rarely use anything but straight streams inside. That said I agree a quick hit on the cileing and floor cool it off but then FIND the fire before you commit the line. Just 2 cents from a truckie.

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    Thumbs down Not Tolerated

    Quote Originally Posted by grimfire View Post
    Does it bother you when exterior teams hit you on the inside with their nozzle stream.
    Maybe its just me.
    It would only bother me once. The sh*t is not tolerated here. In fact it plain just doesn't happen on our fires, and we stop it from happening at M/A fires when we're invited to "play".

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    It would only bother me once. The sh*t is not tolerated here. In fact it plain just doesn't happen on our fires, and we stop it from happening at M/A fires when we're invited to "play".
    Ditto. I don't understand why some people do this!
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    It has happened to me, and I was a little upset. Needless to say, how did you Know it was m/a type situation?

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    You talk about this like you read it in a book.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    Is it in a book? I'm lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grimfire View Post
    It has happened to me, and I was a little upset. Needless to say, how did you Know it was m/a type situation?
    Cause it only happens at someone else's fires!

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    Those guys are the one's that only wear half their gear and no air pack right?
    Last edited by grimfire; 01-20-2009 at 10:03 PM.

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    WTF are you talking about? MA is mutual aid, as in you went to help another department with a fire. You would know it was mutual aid becuase you gave someone aid...

    Are you drunk?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    I think we was making a joke...I hope so at least.

    We use fog nozzles on our pre-connects and they stay on straight stream. I like to blast the ceiling a few times as we advance to the seat. once there I start at the ceiling and z pattern it downward to the floor then sweeping water and debris away from me. Then use your senses, listen, feel, look (if you can see at all). This has always worked for me. If anyone has more suggestions I am always willing to listen and learn.

    Also, we never shoot a stream from the outside if an interior attack is occuring. That hose is usually the back-up line.

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    You sweep the floor so you do not burn your knees not for thermal balance. A lot of company's use FT-2 nozzles cause it works for them. When you have preconnected lines you can use them as you usually dont have more than 4-6 lengths of line. A straight tip nozzle is useful when you have a full bed of hose and need to worry about pumping pressures as an FT-2 tip requires more pressure.

    Do not spray water till you find the fire, if you do you will disrupt your visibility and it turns that dry heat to wet heat lol!

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    Seriously. The guy's researching for a story or something. He's not a firefighter--he's full of crap. That, or he's got serious communication skills problems. He talks like a really bad screenwriter would have a firefighter talk: spits empty information and jargon, like a kid pretending to be a soldier after hearing a war movie.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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