Thread: Smart Move

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    Default Smart Move

    New Orleans Crews Mark Houses Deemed Unsafe

    Some New Orleans residents wonder whether a new campaign designed to protect firefighters will protect their property in the long run.

    Firefighters want other fire crews to get the message that more than 10,000 abandoned properties are not safe, WDSU NewsChannel 6's Rachel Wulff reported.

    New Orleans Fire Department spokesman Jonathan Pajeaud said the department is looking for dangerous, dilapidated properties that have problems, including termite damage.

    Crews mark the properties with signs that have an "X" on them. It's part of the program called Assessing, Identifying and Mitigating Properties Unsafe to Firefighters (AIM).

    "It's strictly for internal fire department (use) to let us know, in the middle of the night, when we pull up, when we see the tape, the light shines off of it to let us know that the property is hazardous," Pajeaud said.

    A federal grant funds the year-long program, which has a goal to mark 1,000 properties for good measure.

    "We've had some close calls with abandoned properties, floors, walls, guys going in with no floors in these buildings. We're worried someone might break a leg," Pajeaud said.

    Crews have since marked a string of properties along Washington Avenue, one of which is a double. George Galloway lives on one side of the house while renovating the other, which was the side that was tagged.

    "I boarded it up so nobody can get in it. When it gets cold, I worry about people seeking shelter," said Pajeaud.

    Galloway is more worried about squatters breaking into the house next door. On Sunday night, the owner of a home on Clio Street said squatters were to blame for a two-alarm fire. If the same thing happened on Washington Avenue, fire crews wouldn't enter the home because of the warning on the sign.

    "I'd worry about that, because flames would probably jump over to our house. I thought they were supposed to keep the public safe, too?" Galloway said.

    The AIM program runs from last April to April of this year. It is not connected to the city's blighted housing initiative. The fire department is trying to find more grant money from another source to keep the program running.


    Smart move.

    A program that puts the life and safety of firefighters first!

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    Many East Coast cities have been doing this for a long time. Nice to see the progressive movement move south and west.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Many East Coast cities have been doing this for a long time. Nice to see the progressive movement move south and west.
    OUCH!! Wonder where this one is going to go?!?!?!
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    Smart move.

    A program that puts the life and safety of firefighters first!


    Apparently, Bossier Parrish will soon have this AIM marking on every single structure larger than a doghouse.

    That ought to keep the boys safe, eh?
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    The marking of abandoned/vacant buildings is in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts Fire Prevention regulations 527 CMR 10.13, sections 7 A and B.

    Info can be found here...
    http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/dfs/o...red/527010.pdf
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    It had to be approved by the county Sheriff first though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Smart move.

    A program that puts the life and safety of firefighters first!
    So, if a vacant building is deemed "safe" it doesn't get a mark.

    Okay, sounds like a plan.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    It had to be approved by the county Sheriff first though.

    First of all, that's parish not county.

    Second of all this is in New Orleans, where they are a city so the LE is the police department, not the Sheriff.

    And third of all, I'm sure the police department did have some input on this program.

    It must be nice to live in a place Dickey where you don't have to work with other agencies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    It had to be approved by the county Sheriff first though.
    C'mon Dickey, you should know better....The Sheriff just tells them when someone is home or not home or if a vacant is empty.....THEY are the ones who puzzy out and not go in!
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    "I'd worry about that, because flames would probably jump over to our house. I thought they were supposed to keep the public safe, too?" Galloway said.
    How awesome is this. I, the arsonist, want to burn down a house. All I have to do now is put some tape on it first.

    Specially since it was so publicly advertised.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    How awesome is this. I, the arsonist, want to burn down a house. All I have to do now is put some tape on it first.

    Specially since it was so publicly advertised.
    great place to light it up if you are a torch, pretty hard to get a conviction when all the evidence is in ashes. hopeully that doesn't become a corpse dumping tactic there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    It had to be approved by the county Sheriff first though.


    It must be nice to live in a place Dickey where you don't have to work with other agencies.
    It sure is better than living in a place where the Sheriff is the authority on fire department matters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    How awesome is this. I, the arsonist, want to burn down a house. All I have to do now is put some tape on it first.

    Specially since it was so publicly advertised.
    Bones: The building marking system that Massachusetts has was developed after the Worcester Cold Storage Fire.. we all know what happened there.

    The only complaints we have had in my community is neighbors commenting on how when we "mark a building" decreases their property value.

    My answer is take it up with the owners who allowed the property being marked to turn into an eyesore. The lives of our personnel supercedes the value of the properties adjacent to the marked building.

    Some of these properties are owned by some very large banks as a result of foreclosure. We have legislation pending review by the City Solicitor and approval of the City Council that would require the banks who foreclose on a property to properly winterize (the vast majority of our "water coming out of the house" calls are a result of pipes freezing) and secure the property. Failure to do so would result in fines on a daily basis.

    Marking a building isn't done willy-nilly. The FD goes to inspect the property with Code enforcement and we then determine whether the building needs to be marked at all, marked for "limited interior ops" or marked with "no interior operations" signage.

    We have 10 marked buildings in town. Considering the fact that there are 13,000+ structures in town, that isn't much at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    It sure is better than living in a place where the Sheriff is the authority on fire department matters.
    Unless he's busy chasing the bandit.

    Then what?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Many East Coast cities have been doing this for a long time. Nice to see the progressive movement move south and west.
    Glad to also see such a progressvie move East of Texas. With the earthquakes and such, the West side has been doing this since the late 70s.
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 02-04-2009 at 12:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    Glad to also see such a progressvie move East of Texas. With the earthquakes and such, the West side has been doing this since the late 70s.
    Take a wild guess where your guys got the idea from!

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Take a wild guess where your guys got the idea from!

    FTM-PTB

    From what I know, deparmtents in California have been doing it as long as we had earthquakes. In the late 60s, FireSCOPE was developed and slowly incorporated by the USAR Teams.(Didnt those originate on the West Coast?) Since then, they have been updated it, here is the lastest version, 2004. Start at page 57.

    The NIMS was based on Firescope, so we did kinda write the book, sorry. But thanks for calling me out.

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    It sure is better than living in a place where the Sheriff is the authority on fire department matters.

    So exactly what kind of fire department matters is that??

    If they have the legal right to burn a structure?

    In most communities, the law enforcement agency is actually the one that has the deepest understanding of the law. Maybe that's not the case in yours, so I can see why you might be confused.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    From what I know, deparmtents in California have been doing it as long as we had earthquakes. In the late 60s, FireSCOPE was developed and slowly incorporated by the USAR Teams.(Didnt those originate on the West Coast?) Since then, they have been updated it, here is the lastest version, 2004. Start at page 57.

    The NIMS was based on Firescope, so we did kinda write the book, sorry. But thanks for calling me out.
    And where did all these chiefs with little to no experience and a decidedly obvious inability to maintain disipline among all their respective departments get many of their ideas of organization and coordination on the fireground that went into Firescope?

    It is something you wouldn't want to admit but many chiefs from your depts out there have been comming to my little burb up here for decades before either of us got on our respective jobs. I'm not going to hijack this anymore that what has already been accomplished...but the reality is much of what you think originated out there...in fact started with actual procedures and policies that came about based on actual needs found in the field and on the fireground....not in the minds of some inexperienced fire chiefs who didn't even bother to properly prepare their men for battle. (lets say against toluene)

    If you are going to take a shot at everyone east of Texas at least have your facts correct.

    FTM-PTB

    PS-Traditionally we mark our vacants and dangerous occupanices with an "X". Have been doing so for decades...so I guess it isn't so progressive is it?
    Last edited by FFFRED; 02-04-2009 at 02:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    Glad to also see such a progressvie move East of Texas. With the earthquakes and such, the West side has been doing this since the late 70s.
    So, basically... all someone has to do is type the word, "progressive" and you'll reply and make it an issue in any thread.

    The whole "who is more progressive" debate is pretty immature and extremely subjective.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    And where did all these chiefs with little to no experience and a decidedly obvious inability to maintain disipline among all their respective departments get many of their ideas of organization and coordination on the fireground that went into Firescope?

    It is something you wouldn't want to admit but many chiefs from your depts out there have been comming to my little burb up here for decades before either of us got on our respective jobs. I'm not going to hijack this anymore that what has already been accomplished...but the reality is much of what you think originated out there...in fact started with actual procedures and policies that came about based on actual needs found in the field and on the fireground....not in the minds of some inexperienced fire chiefs who didn't even bother to properly prepare their men for battle. (lets say against toluene)

    If you are going to take a shot at everyone east of Texas at least have your facts correct.

    FTM-PTB

    PS-Traditionally we mark our vacants and dangerous occupanices with an "X". Have been doing so for decades...so I guess it isn't so progressive is it?
    Hey pal, just answering to post #2. More over did I back it up with more that just words.

    And to answer your question- Firescope was never based on our Chiefs coming to your burb. It started in the early 1960s after the Bel Air Fire in LA County. Most of FireSCOPE was based on the military, (groups, divisions, etc) not your neck of the woods. Those are the facts.

    As for taking shots, I didnt take the first, but am pretty confident my information is valid.
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 02-04-2009 at 02:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    So, basically... all someone has to do is type the word, "progressive" and you'll reply and make it an issue in any thread.

    The whole "who is more progressive" debate is pretty immature and extremely subjective.
    Ummm....no. Dr. Phil now says- "Lets get real". I just responded to what was said in post #2. Thats why we have these forums.
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 02-04-2009 at 02:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    Hey pal, your buddy called me out and I responded. More over did I back it up with more that just words.

    And to answer your question- Firescope was never based on our Chiefs coming to your burb. It started in the early 1960s after the Bel Air Fire in LA County. Most of FireSCOPE was based on the military, not your neck of the woods. Those are the facts.

    As for taking shots, I didnt take the first, but am pretty confident my information is valid.

    Believe what you want...pal. We've been through this before...I see them and speak to them as they often spend some time observing with my Battalion when in town. They are from all over your neck of the woods and there is plenty of research that can be found in old fire engineerings and WNYF's. They've been comming here for quite some time. You'd be very surprised at the genesis of many procedures and accepted practices out there. We've even had long standing relationships with the military and much of our procedures came from men with Military backgrounds.

    There is very little original thought out there...most are modifications or outright duplications of concepts that are most often driven by expereinces and necessity. Your USAR X is a modification off other ideas....I won't say where....

    I imagine there are some industrial engineers somewhere who were buffs who did a paper or two on this subject...any one out there?

    And we do the same...it isn't something to be embarased about...we sent firemen to London during the Blitz to learn what we could from them while the Krauts were laying waste to GB.

    FTM-PTB

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    Bro- I believe you when you say you get a lot of visitors from here asking about how to do this and that.

    But USAR and building markings started here, from what I know. And NIMS is based on FireSCOPE and FS was based on the military.

    Tell your yarns, but not everything fire service is based on XXNY. Some people have developed other tactics, strategies and ways from other sources.

    Side note- Dont you NY guys ever think that not everyone worships you? I mean damn, we had some FDNY guys come into my firehouse once to visit right after 9/11 and....lets just say I would not act that way when a guest in someone's house.

    If you could just site some of your sources, I would love to see them.

    Bou
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 02-04-2009 at 02:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    How awesome is this. I, the arsonist, want to burn down a house. All I have to do now is put some tape on it first.

    Specially since it was so publicly advertised.
    25 years of personal experience allows me to state emphatically that an arsonist doesn't need to rely on any marking to know an easy mark. My bet is that none of the buildings in Coatesville had such a marking.

    Point two; marking the building and then taking no steps to secure it is a fire fighter safety program, not an arson prevention program.

    http://www.interfire.org/features/Ab...ectToolBox.asp

    Take a look at the IAAI/USFA Abandoned Building Project.
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