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  1. #1
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    Default Selling a replaced engine

    My department was fortunate to receive our AFG engine award this year and are now in the process of dumping our old engine to make way for the new one. Now I know that it can't be sold to any other department per AFG guidelines but can it be sold to an apparatus dealer or broker dealing in refurbishments


  2. #2
    Forum Member islandfire03's Avatar
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    the contract you signed with the govt states that the retired piece will be taken out of the fire service duty. and not used as fire apparatus.
    Selling it for parts & pieces as salvage is fine . selling it to a dealer or broker to flog off on another dept is not.
    If it was so bad and unsafe for you to need a free replacement it should not be used in the fire service.

    You will need documentation to put in your file that shows how it was disposed of when the inspectors come to visit from AFG.

  3. #3
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    Actually they can be sold to dealers because there are laws in place that say they have to repair the truck to a sellable point before another department can buy it.

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    Forum Member MTKROUSH's Avatar
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    I don't think there's anything in the program guidance that says you can not sell the engine to a dealer or manufacturer unless you did the basis for replacement being unsafe. That being the case the apparatus as it sits can't be used as fire apparatus. That does not mean that a manufacturer can not refurb the unit and sell it. We are applying to replace a tanker / pumper that has an canopy style cab. An area refurb shop just wants the body and will scrap the cab. By the letter of the rule the apparatus is not being reused. Just a component part that is not the unsafe / obselete part
    To err is human, To forgive divine and at times I am as much of both as you will ever find

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    You can sell it no matter what, marked as unsafe or otherwise. Since they have to refurb it into 1912 condition before selling it it doesn't matter what its like now.

  6. #6
    Forum Member islandfire03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTKROUSH View Post
    That being the case the apparatus as it sits can't be used as fire apparatus. That does not mean that a manufacturer can not refurb the unit and sell it. We are applying to replace a tanker / pumper that has an canopy style cab. An area refurb shop just wants the body and will scrap the cab. By the letter of the rule the apparatus is not being reused. Just a component part that is not the unsafe / obselete part
    You have explained the points I was trying to make above. To sell it to a dealer to be used for components , ie pump or fire body, engine or transmission is fine. If you based your grant application on the truck being unsafe to operate it should not go on the resale market. To say that all used fire truck dealers will bring an old non compliant truck into compliance is crazy. There might be some that will go to the expense , but if it's so easy to bring into safe ,compliant service why did the taxpayers buy a new one.
    When I asked this question about disposal to the regional AFG rep, He said they expect documentation to show that the replaced vehicle has been removed from the fire service. That was the original intent of the program to replace unsafe vehicles to improve our safety.

    Brian : would not 1912 require it to be brought up to current standards to be compliant. If that's the case it would not be cost effective to remanufacture the unit for resale

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    The problem is that alot of this equipment would work very good for a small rural department with no budget. I am sure some of this equipment is not serviceable and should be scrapped. I am also sure that not everyone was truthful when they said their truck was the biggest POC that there was and it was a death trap to drive. Trucks with the rear facing jump seats are an easy fix. Yank the seats off and that truck is still serviceable. I am sure that not all of these trucks have been removed from service. Just because you sell it to Joe Smith doesn't mean that Joe Smith doesn't sell it to another department. It may not be right but if your annual budget is $10,000 a year your not going to buy much of a new NFPA Compliant truck. And now that the AFG is based on Cost Benefit and number of runs (I am not saying that it shouldn't be) most small depts don't have a chance in getting a grant.

  8. #8
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    It may change for this year but as of right now once a dealer has it we're not responsible for what is done with it and it is still in compliance with DHS regs on disposal. If the vehicle is unsafe to use from a DOT standpoint then before they can sell that truck they must have it inspected and then fixed if needed. If it will cost more money to do that then they'll either scrap it or not buy the truck in the first place. Either way, not our issue and as long as it's legal might as well get some money to help put towards the matching or other bills. As NCK said, money is tough in the small areas. Have to do whatever can be done as long as it's still allowed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NCKSFIRE View Post
    The problem is that alot of this equipment would work very good for a small rural department with no budget. I am sure some of this equipment is not serviceable and should be scrapped.
    If the AFG replaced the truck for the right reasons, then it SHOULD be junked or parked in an orchard somewhere. Why should they pay for it to be replaced, then the FD with the new truck sells it to another department, who THEN writes an AFG grant application for replacement? How many times woiuld you like to see the Feds "replace" the same apparatus? I don't completely agree with your statement about B/C and run numbers. If the B/C and runs don't justify the cost, then they liklely don't justify the cost of maintaining a small, independant fire department. Consider consolidation into a more regional approach for fire protection as a solution.
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCKSFIRE View Post
    I am also sure that not everyone was truthful when they said their truck was the biggest POC that there was and it was a death trap to drive. .
    And that my friend would constitute "fraud" in a Federal grant program and open that person up to a visit from the men with shiny bracelets!
    Kurt Bradley
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  11. #11
    Forum Member MTKROUSH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    You have explained the points I was trying to make above. To sell it to a dealer to be used for components , ie pump or fire body, engine or transmission is fine. If you based your grant application on the truck being unsafe to operate it should not go on the resale market. To say that all used fire truck dealers will bring an old non compliant truck into compliance is crazy. There might be some that will go to the expense , but if it's so easy to bring into safe ,compliant service why did the taxpayers buy a new one.
    It is crazy to expect all used apparatus dealers to remanufacturer uncompliant apparatus. Like I mentioned we have contact with a shop that wants only our fire body. They dont want the cab. They may want the engine but not the transmission. They are drooling over the fire body. They are willing to give us top dollar for this body. If your department does its homework about the one they are selling to then you should be in good shape. That is speaking both legally and ethically.
    To err is human, To forgive divine and at times I am as much of both as you will ever find

  12. #12
    Forum Member islandfire03's Avatar
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    Talking

    Thank you Kurt ! I was trying to be nice and not bring out the point that some folks might not be telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth when describing their old apparatus. The example that comes to mind is a dept that bought an open back early 70"S vintage pumper to add to their fleet. It was older than the rest of their fleet. This gave them a fleet avg that brought them into the money three years later when they applied for a new engine. Yes they got three years of use fro it but were they playing the game or working the game to their advantage????? These are the things that make me go HUNH!!!

  13. #13
    Forum Member islandfire03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTKROUSH View Post
    It is crazy to expect all used apparatus dealers to remanufacturer uncompliant apparatus. Like I mentioned we have contact with a shop that wants only our fire body. They dont want the cab. They may want the engine but not the transmission. They are drooling over the fire body. They are willing to give us top dollar for this body. If your department does its homework about the one they are selling to then you should be in good shape. That is speaking both legally and ethically.

    Thats exactly the point I was making to sell it for salvage to take components such as your fire body and junk the rest is the intent of the program. Not to sell it to a dealer that turns around and sells it to another dept to put in service.

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    It may be fraud but my guess is that there have been alot of trucks replaced that weren't bad trucks. I have been to grant writing seminars where departments were complaining about how bad their trucks were, but none of what they had in the barn was even close to the age of our trucks. If it isn't new to some it is a piece of junk. Those less fortunate out there would be glad to have some of these trucks. As far as the C/B ratios. We already cover 360 square miles. I think we are about as regional as we can get.

  15. #15
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    Of course it only needs to be taken out of service if it is marked as a dangerous vehicle. Converted trucks of course, but older standard trucks that are just that don't have to be marked as 'need to come out of service'. Left that off several that got awards this year so they can either keep the truck or sell it to another department. We tell them in the app if it's junk, and if so can't keep it for any reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NCKSFIRE View Post
    As far as the C/B ratios. We already cover 360 square miles. I think we are about as regional as we can get.
    Sorry, Bro! I guess my comments about considering something more "regional" show my small town, Upstate NY orientation!

    Best of luck with your application!
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."

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  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber chief41's Avatar
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    Default over the border?

    Does DHS allow you to sell the apparatus outside the country? We have had a couple of local companies recently sell apparatus to fire dept's. from other countries (in South America). None of these were replaced thru AFG, but it may be another legal option, for selling a used piece.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief41 View Post
    Does DHS allow you to sell the apparatus outside the country? We have had a couple of local companies recently sell apparatus to fire dept's. from other countries (in South America). None of these were replaced thru AFG, but it may be another legal option, for selling a used piece.
    Yes, the Caribbean Islands. Mexico, South America and Australia buy them all the time off eBay.
    Kurt Bradley
    Public Safety Grants Consultant

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