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    Default Armored Car Extricaion Ideas?

    A Firehouse Magazine reader writes;

    "In teaching an extrication course last weekend, a student inquired regarding armored vehicle extrication. I hate to admit it but I had never given it much thought. I was wondering if you had any references or resources regarding such matters. When one thinks about the number of armored vehicles just for the banking industry it is a wonder that we don’t face more of these at incident scenes."


    Any help would be great.
    Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
    www.universityofextrication.com

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    cutting torches? Oh man this is a really hard question... if you can I think chuck norris could do it.. but other than that....

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    We had a neighboring department that ran on an armored car that went off the interstate and rolled after a steering tire blew out. While I wasn't on it, they conveyed some information to us about the incident. They were fortunate in the fact that the driver was able to regain consciousness when the beat on the windshield of the vehicle and was able to open the door to allow them to get to him. The were also able to get the keys to gain access to the rear of the vehicle, where the other subject was still unconscious.

    The biggest issue they ran into was the guy in the rear had been knocked silly. When they opened the door, he went for his weapon, not knowing what was going on. The had to give him time to come around enough to figure out they were there to help, with the aid of a highway patrolman. However, even though he had obvious head injuries and still wasn't coherent enough they felt comfortable refusing him, he refused to leave the vehicle to be transported. He even refused to leave it with the highway patrolman to watch until someone was able to make contact with his boss, who told him to go to the hospital and leave the vehicle under the patrolman's watch.

    As far as extrication, they were able to speak with a representative from the company that showed up while they were still on scene. He stated the "easiest" way to get into the vehicle was through it's weakest side, the bottom. He didn't feel like our conventional means (HRT's, sawz-alls, etc.) would do the job, even from the bottom side. The only other means would be through the hinges or through a window/windshield, as they are weaker than the doors themselves (but not by any means "weak"). We happen to carry an exothermic torch on our rescue, which I would imagine would be one of the first tools off the truck and taken to the hinges, as I don't think a standard Oxy-Acetylene torch would touch it.

    I would think it'd be prudent to have someone from the company responding to the scene early in the incident, hopefully with a set of keys that'll get someone in. Especially if both subjects are unconscious and can't be aroused.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmoore View Post
    A Firehouse Magazine reader writes;

    "In teaching an extrication course last weekend, a student inquired regarding armored vehicle extrication. I hate to admit it but I had never given it much thought. I was wondering if you had any references or resources regarding such matters. When one thinks about the number of armored vehicles just for the banking industry it is a wonder that we don’t face more of these at incident scenes."


    Any help would be great.

    Shaped charge?

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    Being on the IFSTA Principles of Vehicle Extrication committee, this was one area that we implemented to put into the new manual. What we suggested to use were plasma cutters, or rotary saw blades designed to cut thick steel (k-12). Hack saws and saw-zalls wont even make a scratch. Going through the floor is fine, however what if the vehicle is on its wheels not to mention the amount of armor plating there is to tackle? Windows are quite thick and will take time to penetrate. The rotary saw will cut through the glass.

    Being a firefighter in the military, we have the task of extricating personnel from up-armored vehicles such as hum-vees. We were fortunate to find a rotary saw blade that will cut the doors somewhat easily after practicing the technique. The trick is to go for the hinges. However the process may differ with armored currency vehicles; hinges located differently. I would recommend getting in touch with the manufacturer for guidance, but be prepared for push back due to the security issue.

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    In Iraq there have been problems with hummers that have rolled over, with the amount of armour they have been packing on a vehicle that was supposed to replace the Jeep, is hasn't been without problems. The doors are so heavy that crew from inside usually can't open it if the vehicle is on it's side.

    For a vehicles where the doors are jammed shut, some have been fitted with hooks on the doors, attach a steel cable to another vehicle and take off, hopefully ripping the door either open or off. Perhaps not the ideal thing with neck injuries, but medevac from hotspots probably isn't.

    NOTE! The information above is a summary of posts on the military.com forum. I do not guarantee it's authenticity.

    I was with the military for some time but I have no own experience if this.

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    I would not recommend the technique of attaching a cable to the door and ripping it off the vehicle. Various departments in Iraq and Afghan. have what are called strike teams. These teams consist of 4 to 6 rescuers depending on the severity of the accident who hop a ride on a helo with a stokes basket of equipment. In that basket are trauma bags, backboard, and extrication equipment (i.e. hydraulic tools and saws). The k-12 saws have a diamond tip rotary saw blade affixed which as I mentioned in my previous post will cut the hinges off the door of an up armored vehicle. Obviously there is a time factor involved in this type of rapid extrication (nothing rapid about cutting 1 - 2 inch thick steel with a saw). As the rescuers are doing their thing, there is a second helo full of security forces personnel who are armed to the teeth to protect all those involved.

    NOTE the doors on an up armored Humvee weigh up-wards of 400 pounds so picking them up will be one of the last choices you want. I would use the cable technique only after the hinges are cut no before due the instability of the vehicle. That's why the hooks were placed on the doors. The crews know about the strike teams and had hem installed for that purpose.

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    Kevin, great to hear from you. Hope all things are going well for you. I too had this question this weekend teaching our winter fire school here in Missouri. I was able to use Kevins information as we are working on the same book together. Remember you toes folks when these doors come off and fall down. Thats my two cents. Alan

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    I am or was told I was, on a list with Brinks to get an out of service truck to cut. They supposedly give them out the departments for training. I am sure there a ton of stipulations involved. Might be worth checking into again.
    Jason Brooks
    IAFF Local 2388
    IACOJ

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    Default Armored Vehicle Rescue Kit

    Anyone ever heard of these or have any information on them ? The information on their website is limited.

    Griffin Extraction Device (GED)

    http://www.indigenarmor.com/vehicle-rescue.html

    The GED enables react and rescue teams to access personnel trapped in armored vehicles in as little as 2 minutes. In hostile environments or during a medical crisis, every second counts.

    Designed by a former U.S. Special Operations veteran with extensive experience responding to “vehicle down” emergencies, the GED is faster, easier, and more reliable to operate than standard mechanical or power rescue tools including spreaders, cutters, Hooligan tools, sledge hammers and Quickie saws. Unlike claw-based devices, the GED does not require exposed door edges to work. In a recent comparison test conducted for a U.S. Government armored vehicle working group, the GED breached an armored SUV in less than 2 minutes(including set-up to full breach) – a full ten minutes faster than the power tools used by the Rescue team of a major metropolitan fire department.

    "Due to the specialized nature of this device, we are unable to show any images or discuss its unique capabilities. Sales are restricted to authorized government agencies only."

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    Jet axe? Hehe T.C.

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    We had 1 call that we considered using a torch on. Uparmored Toyota Landcruiser w/3 pinned. Then common sense set in, and we realized the fuel all over the place. Decided against the torch.
    A Fire Chief has ONLY 1 JOB and that's to take care of his fireman. EVERYTHING else falls under this.

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    Alan... Glad to see ya brother! Definitely watch your toes.

    With regards to the GED product, it sounds like and I would be willing to put a dollar on it that the company is using some type of detonating cord or primacord. This cord is like a piece of rope that can be formed around the area you want to breach (i.e. door, window frame, etc). Once the cord is set, it's attached to a detonating device similar to those used to detonate dynamite. These cords explode rather than burn like some people think. There are cords out there that will burn and actually melt the metal. Military fighter jets that have ejection seats or capsules use similar cords to line the canopy or fuselage. When the ejection sequence is activated, the cord burns through the latches or skin of the aircraft thus separating the components. Great concept but you better be WELL TRAINED in the technique.

    And yeah fuel leaks could pose a significant problem. Good scene size up will determine the best approach.

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    i guess i would want to know a few things first

    why are they in an armored car

    are the people in car armed, and do they think your trying to take their VIP

    and are there other escort cars near by that might try to stop you

    i can remember my cousin (who is in the army) telling me that is one of their vehicles got into and accident off the base while crying "sensitive materials" no one other that military personal was allowed within so many feet of the scene until it had been cleared by an officer

    i would imagine that if you had some kind of foreign dignitary in the car that they would do something similar
    Last edited by MoosemanKBB527; 02-09-2009 at 09:28 PM.
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    Moose...
    You're absolutely correct with respect to military and government policy regarding VIPs and sensitive materials. Most agencies will hold rescue personnel until the scene is deemed cleared (they know exactly who you are) before anyone goes near the vehicles. This is one main reason why the Secret Service now has their own fire protection and rescue section of the agency.

    When I was briefed on these type of accidents at various locations throughout the globe, I was personally told that depending on the materials involved (classified, secret, top secret, secret squirrel (eyes only)) that the vehicle may burn with materials and personnel inside. At first I thought "yeah right!" but they were serious. DoD Firefighters with the exception of a few only have Secret Security clearance. This means that if there are Top Secret or higher materials involved, we do not get around them in an uncontrolled environment such as a vehicle accident (no way of knowing where the materials have been strewn about in the vehicle).

    When dealing with currency armored vehicles, VIPs, government officials, and the President and Vice President of the US or another country, there will always be a security risk to the rescuers. As Moose mentions, they individuals inside may think you are trying to overtake the vehicle and passengers or their support teams may hinder your response until as I mentioned, you are cleared to proceed. Either way, get with your local agencies and find out what their policies are regarding these type of incidents.

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    Likely through the window glazing MAY be best, however nothing is likely quick.

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    Default Ged

    Quote Originally Posted by ejfeicht View Post
    Anyone ever heard of these or have any information on them ? The information on their website is limited.

    Griffin Extraction Device (GED)

    http://www.indigenarmor.com/vehicle-rescue.html

    The GED enables react and rescue teams to access personnel trapped in armored vehicles in as little as 2 minutes. In hostile environments or during a medical crisis, every second counts.

    Designed by a former U.S. Special Operations veteran with extensive experience responding to “vehicle down” emergencies, the GED is faster, easier, and more reliable to operate than standard mechanical or power rescue tools including spreaders, cutters, Hooligan tools, sledge hammers and Quickie saws. Unlike claw-based devices, the GED does not require exposed door edges to work. In a recent comparison test conducted for a U.S. Government armored vehicle working group, the GED breached an armored SUV in less than 2 minutes(including set-up to full breach) – a full ten minutes faster than the power tools used by the Rescue team of a major metropolitan fire department.

    "Due to the specialized nature of this device, we are unable to show any images or discuss its unique capabilities. Sales are restricted to authorized government agencies only."
    Greetings,

    I was directed here by a buddy that told me that you all may have some questions about the Griffin Extraction Device.
    I would be happy to share the info with you all but not in an open forum setting. This device is currently being used overseas in differing hostile places so we are very tight lipped on it for security reasons. I’m sure you all understand why we would not want the ability to extract individuals out of an armored vehicle in a very short amount of time to be open source.
    If you are interested let me know and we can get you some info.

    Take care
    RG

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    Going through the window glazing may be a bit difficult due to the way it is installed. I've seen the glass (windshield) sandwiched between two steel plates to hold it in place. Simply gluing the reinforced glass to the A post and roof as you may find on your own vehicle is not an option.

    The best and most efficient method of understanding what is the optimal method of gaining access into these unique vehicles is to either contact the manufacturer and request information or even a hands-on class, or get with the agency using the vehicle in their inventory. I am sure that by approaching the agency using these vehicles and explaining the justification of your request for additional information or hands-on training, they may allow you access to the vehicles knowing that should something occur, they now know who is trained and is responding to rescue their personnel. Having that sense of security usually drops the barriers these companies put up. After all, these vehicles aren’t secured and up-armored for no reason at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kferrara2002 View Post
    Alan... Glad to see ya brother! Definitely watch your toes.

    With regards to the GED product, it sounds like and I would be willing to put a dollar on it that the company is using some type of detonating cord or primacord. This cord is like a piece of rope that can be formed around the area you want to breach (i.e. door, window frame, etc). Once the cord is set, it's attached to a detonating device similar to those used to detonate dynamite. These cords explode rather than burn like some people think. There are cords out there that will burn and actually melt the metal. Military fighter jets that have ejection seats or capsules use similar cords to line the canopy or fuselage. When the ejection sequence is activated, the cord burns through the latches or skin of the aircraft thus separating the components. Great concept but you better be WELL TRAINED in the technique.

    And yeah fuel leaks could pose a significant problem. Good scene size up will determine the best approach.
    The GED breach is fully mechanical. There are no explosives used.

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    And that very reason is why you will be hard pressed to get info even from the companies that run these vehicles.Given the very low numbers of incidents requiring "rescue" they are very reluctant to give out ionfo on the weak spots.What little info I have comes from exposure towing breakdowns which also is rare.

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    Keep in mind that in addition to techniques and tools for this particular type of extrication, you need safety procedures that are specific to armored vehicles.

    Particularly, as has been hinted, you need to be prepared to deal with the occupants. Occupants may have an altered mental status secondary to the crash, or may have had the condition as a factor to the crash. If it's an armored vehicle, you can nearly always guarantee that at least one occupant will be armed. AMS and firearms don't mix. Your priority at all times should be to evaluate the patient as safely as possible, and secure any weapons as soon as possible. Having law enforcement or someone working with the armored vehicle occupants there to secure any weapons may be key to scene safety.

    This is similar to MVC's involving law enforcement K9 units. There are specific guidelines for safety. One of them is securing the K9. Law enforcement and military medics also have guidelines for care under fire. One of the first steps is to secure the weapon of an unconscious or altered man down, so that he doesn't wake up confused and armed.

    Armored vehicles may not just be money-carrying vehicles, either. They might be military vehicles that were being transported on trailers, they may be law enforcement APC's, they may be privately-owned armored vehicles for rich/high risk clients.

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    Does anyone know what other materials (ie. kevlar) and the composition of steel that they use in armored cars and trucks are?

    My guess is that we are not going to worry about a total boron casing but a high-tensile steel that would be easily cut.
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

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    What kind of armored vehicle are we talking about here? On one hand, I envision the "Brinks" style vehicle with a driver secured in his compartment and another person secured in the back compartment. The communicate with each other by intercom and radios.

    On the other hand I am thinking about a vehicle that has been modified for dignitary/VIP protection. A lot of these will look like any other vehicle or perhaps like a limo. It is also an armored vehicle, but not one that carries money.

    The comment by Catch22 about the guy in the rear being "knocked silly" is worth discussing a bit. That person's reaction may have been completely normal when you consider that crashing into am armored vehicle may be a method used to attack one. Until that person is convinced otherwise, he/she may be in mind set to do battle and just because you look like a firefighter may not convince that person right away. As was pointed out, this person is likely armed and often has gun ports available in the vehicle. For that reason alone, you need to slow down and take your time to ensure nothing goes wrong that cannot be fixed.

    The person inside the armored vehicle knew he/she was taking extra risks when they took that job and they were well aware that they would be locked inside of a steel box when they signed on. Until you know that person is on the same page in the play book that you are, you need to consider complying with their demands until you get them into their comfort level.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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