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Thread: New Trends

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    Default New Trends

    Hello gents, This is my first post, I'll save all that for the meet and greet forum, but in the mean time i have a question for all of you. I am taking some classes for fire science technology and i have an assignment to browse some websites and identify a trend in the fire service. I have looked at a few and have an idea of what i'm looking for but i wanted to hear from the front lines about any trends that are appearing in the fire service and where they seem to be headed. Any input would be appreciated, as well as websites i can check out. Already got Fire Engineering.com and Fire Tactics.com. Thanks.

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    Default ems

    I would say that one major one would be the integration of EMS into the fire service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firefuss View Post
    layoffs, demotions, and company closings


    what a pessimist, those are layoffs those are forced indefinite furloughs, and it isn't called a demotion its called a reassignment, and companies don't get closed its called a new allocation of resources. Nothing bad is happening we're just using a different service delivery model.



    so one new trend is euphemisms for sacrificing fire protection.

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    Another new trend is to not go inside burning buildings because its too dangerous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    Another new trend is to not go inside burning buildings because its too dangerous.
    I think the technical term is cowardice.

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    PPV induced flashovers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    Another new trend is to not go inside burning buildings because its too dangerous.

    Took the words right out of my mouth.

    The trend is to regulate operations on the fireground to the point where we aren't doing what we're there to do. Seems the most basic tenet of the fire service, which is.... put the fire out and the problem goes away...is slowly being trended right off the fireground.


    Cogs

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    Getting back to the basics and sending EMS back to it's own entity where it belongs. Fire Fighters will be fire fighters, and EMS people will do EMS work, and Police Officers will do police work.

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    The professionalization of the fire service leadership by more and more departments requiring college degrees for chief officers and college credit for promotion to Captain and Lieutenant.

    More departments realizing the dangers of interior operations in structures where the is nothing or very little to gain.

    EMS becoming even more embedded into the fire service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whocares View Post
    I think the technical term is cowardice.
    Quite possibly even "criminal."
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Getting back to the basics and sending EMS back to it's own entity where it belongs. Fire Fighters will be fire fighters, and EMS people will do EMS work, and Police Officers will do police work.
    If we do that there will be even more firefighter layoffs. EMS is over 70% of the calls the American fire service runs these days. Sorry but we better get use to it because it is here to stay.

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    what we need is for FD's to be only first response EMS, so that we can go to calls where extra hands/being their quicker can make the difference, but we are also able to clear if needed for Fire/Rescue situations that are our primary concern.

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    Nameless ...

    The problem there is tthat hundreds if not thousands of departments have come to depend on the billing revenue generated by transports.

    If they shut down the ambos, they will fire those firefighters assigned to those rigs as the transports are paying their salaries. Without the transport, they will not have the funds to pay them and they will not be reassigned to suppression, as there will be no incoming funds to pay them.

    So just running first response will cost thousands of positions.

    That's the financial reality.

    And the reality is, in many, many places, EMS has become our primary mission and fire response is now secondary. That, as a service, we need to accept.

    So are you really sure you want to go back to the "old days"?
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 02-17-2009 at 08:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    And the reality is, in many, many places, EMS has become our primary mission and fire response is now secondary. That, as a service, we need to accept.
    It really shows in some places too....just watch some fireground videos on youtube some day.

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    In the volunteer departments I have observed, less fires, coupled with less training, resulting in much less effective leadership and service to the community.

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    Gotta go with the cowardice, the Pussification process is going strong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Nameless ...

    The problem there is tthat hundreds if not thousands of departments have come to depend on the billing revenue generated by transports.

    If they shut down the ambos, they will fire those firefighters assigned to those rigs as the transports are paying their salaries. Without the transport, they will not have the funds to pay them and they will not be reassigned to suppression, as there will be no incoming funds to pay them.

    So just running first response will cost thousands of positions.

    That's the financial reality.

    And the reality is, in many, many places, EMS has become our primary mission and fire response is now secondary. That, as a service, we need to accept.

    So are you really sure you want to go back to the "old days"?


    in that case don't waste the money on the fire apparatus, don't waste the money on the fire training, and don't trick people into thinking they have a "fire department", when its an EMS dept. that'll go to a fire and maybe shoot water at it from outside.

    The U.S. has one of the highest fire death rates of industrialized countries, do you really think we should put fire suppression skills on the back burner?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    in that case don't waste the money on the fire apparatus, don't waste the money on the fire training, and don't trick people into thinking they have a "fire department", when its an EMS dept. that'll go to a fire and maybe shoot water at it from outside

    The U.S. has one of the highest fire death rates of industrialized countries, do you really think we should put fire suppression skills on the back burner?
    nameless, thats an interesting point you bring up. Definitely fire supression has got to remain important due to the statistics, but maybe the entire system needs some overhaul. Building codes, building materials, public education, inspections, the entire gamut. I've spent quite alot of time in Europe and I know most places spend far less resources on firefighting than North America.

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    The U.S. has one of the highest fire death rates of industrialized countries, do you really think we should put fire suppression skills on the back burner?

    Never said we should. But the reality is that many small departments are as EMS may be 75-85% of their runs.

    Because of that, the department may choose to focus their training time on EMS. The EMS volume may limit their available training time, and as a result, some basic suppression skills are not drilled on as often.

    I never said it was right, but I have no doubt in some departments it's happening.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 02-19-2009 at 08:38 AM.

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    Nameless it may be different in your part of the country but i work for a department who ran over 70,000 calls last year covers 437 square miles with a population of over 800,000 people with the largest fire service district in the state of georgia. And yes 80% of our call volume is EMS. We do transport and thats what keeps us funded for our apparatus and staffing. We have not had a line of duty firefighter death in over 10 years with close to 800 firefighters. So you do the math. That constant fire train that we do pays off and we still fight fires aggressively and rescue is our number one priority. We are successful because of the gear we have and the training that we receive and none of those things would be possible without the revenue that transports bring us. The fire service has always been dedicated to meeting our customers needs and to provide the best customer service that we possibly can. Its true that it will never be like the war years when the fire service could survive without EMS but they must coexist now. There is no way around it. That is why my department is still hiring and building new stations and adding more trucks because our leaders get it. Without EMS we would be dead in the water like our neighbors in Atlanta.


    THINK ABOUT IT, better code inforcement and better public education means less fire...thats just how its gonna be. Thats why ill be going to Medic school and thats why ill promote and we will continue to grow.


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    EMS runs may constitute the bulk of a department's call volume, but that is not an excuse for the current trends to overcomplicate firefighting to the point we are incapable of effective and aggressive interior fire attack. We are still calling ourselves FIRE departments and as such we must know how to put fires out. If fire calls are down then training, and especially live fire training, should go up. This isn't rocket science, but it does require intelligence coupled with heavy doses of brawn (i.e. balls) and experience to do it right. Many newer firefighters, brought up in the computer age, do not come into this with many of the manual skills which were common place just 10 -15 years ago. Therefore they seem to rely too much on brains when brawn is required. It is the job of training officers/divs to utilize those brains to teach and reinforce those lost manual skills of brawn constantly. The less fires there are the more we have to create them on the drill field so that members can gain at least some level of experience with "real" fire.

    Paid or volunteer 1 fire or 1000, firefighting is an inherently dangerous undertaking. To do it effectively means you're going to get hot, dirty and tired with a few bumps and bruises now and then along the way. If you want to "get in there" and put fires out effectively that just comes with the territory. Put away the laptops, set aside the BP cuffs, button up the turnout coats and hit the drill field. Hammer the basics, get into that burn room as often as you can and you won't need regulations to do your job safely. You'll gain some useful experience for yourself to do it right for real when the time comes.

    Cogs
    Last edited by FFPCogs08; 02-19-2009 at 08:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFPCogs08 View Post
    EThe less fires there are the more we have to create them on the drill field so that members can gain at least some level of experience with "real" fire.

    Paid or volunteer 1 fire or 1000, firefighting is an inherently dangerous undertaking. To do it effectively means you're going to get hot, dirty and tired with a few bumps and bruises now and then along the way. If you want to "get in there" and put fires out effectively that just comes with the territory. Put away the laptops, set aside the BP cuffs, button up the turnout coats and hit the drill field. Hammer the basics, get into that burn room as often as you can and you won't need regulations to do your job safely. You'll gain some useful experience for yourself to do it right for real when the time comes.

    Cogs
    Absolutely agree 100%, but it is frequently heard from younger (and some older guys) that "we don't want to have to pack up hose on drill night". How the hell do you have an effective drill on the basics without deploying hose? Some of the officers have caved and truly believe that effective "training" consists of watching videos and power point presentations?

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    A trend in the fire service would be the downward spiral of the volunteer fire service. With hieghtened training requirements, and many blue collar families having to work an extra job or longer hours, no one has time to get into the volunteer fire service. Couple that with the younger generation (my generation) in it more for the thrill than the sense of duty and pride. And what you've got is a barley functional system in which departments are just hoping to get enough people out the door on that next EMS call, and a bunch of immature squirelly kids taking greater risks due to a lack of knowledge in fire behavior due to an ever declining number of actual fires where these kids could actually get some experience. No one wants to train on building construction because you can't get your helmet dirty that way.


    This is not to detract from the few volunteer systems that work well, and have to wait list people because every truck is getting out the building fully staffed, and yes even on the EMS calls. But realize ya'll are the lucky few.

    Please don't miss read this as my having any distaste for the volunteer fire service. I'm a fourth generation volunteer, and will continue to do it as long as I can. But it's going to take a change in the attitude of the entire country to fix the volunteer fire service. Civic duty needs to be reinstated into the public vocabulary.

    Sorry I got on my soap box abit, but that is a obvious trend. There are studies and research to back it up, which I'm sure you'll have to have for your class.
    I live to train so you can train to live.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthendTruckin View Post
    A trend in the fire service would be the downward spiral of the volunteer fire service. With hieghtened training requirements, and many blue collar families having to work an extra job or longer hours, no one has time to get into the volunteer fire service. Couple that with the younger generation (my generation) in it more for the thrill than the sense of duty and pride. And what you've got is a barley functional system in which departments are just hoping to get enough people out the door on that next EMS call, and a bunch of immature squirelly kids taking greater risks due to a lack of knowledge in fire behavior due to an ever declining number of actual fires where these kids could actually get some experience. No one wants to train on building construction because you can't get your helmet dirty that way.


    This is not to detract from the few volunteer systems that work well, and have to wait list people because every truck is getting out the building fully staffed, and yes even on the EMS calls. But realize ya'll are the lucky few.

    Please don't miss read this as my having any distaste for the volunteer fire service. I'm a fourth generation volunteer, and will continue to do it as long as I can. But it's going to take a change in the attitude of the entire country to fix the volunteer fire service. Civic duty needs to be reinstated into the public vocabulary.

    Sorry I got on my soap box abit, but that is a obvious trend. There are studies and research to back it up, which I'm sure you'll have to have for your class.
    I agree with you 100%. And those immature squirrelly kids you referred to are not just kids--I see 40- and 50-something year old volunteers refusing to train and taking uninformed risks at the few fires they make. I think the age of the internet has imbued some people with the sense that they can train by watching videos and youtube. I analogize this to teaching someone to play a sport requiring mental and physical skills like soccer, tennis or football by watching videos only. It will never produce someone with good physical skills or a true appreciation of the tasks.

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    Running auto alarms non emergency
    Stopping at all intersections.... green or red lights
    Quints.... to reduce cost??
    Staffing quints with only 3 or maybe less FF's(bad enough we, as a whole, often do it on engines)
    Not conducting a search because you were told "no one is in there"
    The one man vent team (ie: PPV) for everything
    1 3/4" lines with fog nozzles calling it a high rise pack
    The list goes on and on............

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