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    Default Sleeping while on 24hr shift

    My department has stated that they are no longer going to be buying mattress for the stations, if the crews want to get new mattresses then they have to buy them... DO anyone know of any rules (FMLA) that states that if the department is on 24hr shifts that they (department) have to supply mattresses for the crews?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtfd72 View Post
    My department has stated that they are no longer going to be buying mattress for the stations, if the crews want to get new mattresses then they have to buy them... DO anyone know of any rules (FMLA) that states that if the department is on 24hr shifts that they (department) have to supply mattresses for the crews?
    Did the city provide the beds?? If so they have to provide the mattresses!!
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtfd72 View Post
    My department has stated that they are no longer going to be buying mattress for the stations, if the crews want to get new mattresses then they have to buy them... DO anyone know of any rules (FMLA) that states that if the department is on 24hr shifts that they (department) have to supply mattresses for the crews?
    Do you have a union contract? If so, what does the contract say? I'm not aware of any rules under FMLA or OSHA which require the purchase of mattresses for department owned beds. Now if the mattresses was deemed unsafe (mold, chemical, body fluids, etc), then under A5.1 of OSHA's general duty clause, they'd have a legal obligation to remove the mattress but not replace it.

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    Several thoughts-

    -They should provide the matresses.

    -Are you union? This should be an issue for them.

    -Sometimes there is winning the war and willing the battle. If there is no way they will buy them, I would buy on my own or a group by. I got bigger fish to fry like benefits and pay. Granted this is a "work condition", but I would have to get the other member's opinions.
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 02-18-2009 at 03:50 PM.

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    As much as it kills me to say this, check your contract and try working through the union to resolve the issue.

    As OldTimer said, if they provided the beds, they should provide matresses.

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    Where is Waterville?? Do you guys have a TV station and newspaper around your burg??

    Are you a IAFF member department?

    Get everyone involved. Sent an news bit to the media so they can get into this. Get the public aware of this 'bs' they city is trying to shove on you all.


    Make a big deal of this.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    This is just ridiculous. Fight it with Past Practices. This is a no brainer and a winner.
    Jason Brooks
    IAFF Local 2388
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    ....Get everyone involved. Sent an news bit to the media so they can get into this. Get the public aware of this 'bs' they city is trying to shove on you all.
    Make a big deal of this.
    In the early 90's we had a mayor who called the FD a "necessary evil" stated in the paper he wanted to remove the beds and give us wooden chairs to rest on in the kitchen. Absolutely NO support from the public. Just a few letters saying how they couldn't believe we get paid to sleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrescue View Post
    This is just ridiculous. Fight it with Past Practices. This is a no brainer and a winner.
    I totally agree. This should be a easy win for the union

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    Are you kidding? Great idea....I would go to the papers with it!!

    Sometimes it is better to cut your losses. If you need it explained to you, especially in this economic climate...I dont think I can help you.

    Oh....and Capt Old Timer....I got it
    Last edited by MattyJ; 02-18-2009 at 11:23 PM.

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    That pretty much sucks... sounds like the Career department that I once worked for. They went out and bought the cheapest crap that they could find.. I have slept better on cots in 3rd world nations.

    My advise is let the Union deal with it.. if they can't do anything then go to the media next.

    Good Luck!

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    Quote Originally Posted by len1582 View Post
    Absolutely NO support from the public. Just a few letters saying how they couldn't believe we get paid to sleep.
    people sicken me, not just from a firefighters viewpoint, noone has respect anymore. and im definitely against having the "civilians" bow down to firemen. so dont think im stating that for that reason, In and out of the fire service I see this

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    yeah if the beds are junk now and the dept. has to pay for new ones your definitly not going to want to sleep on those

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    Quote Originally Posted by len1582 View Post
    In the early 90's we had a mayor who called the FD a "necessary evil" stated in the paper he wanted to remove the beds and give us wooden chairs to rest on in the kitchen. Absolutely NO support from the public. Just a few letters saying how they couldn't believe we get paid to sleep.
    I know of a city in Mississippi that refused to pay the firefighters that were working 24 hour shifts more than 16 hours a day because they shouldn't be getting paid to sleep.

    That quickly changed after the Chief and Mayor found out that the entire city fire department left the stations and went home at 11:00 pm because they were not getting paid anymore.

    I would challenge this particular scenario with the FLSA laws. I think firefighters do not receive overtime until after working 56 hours a week in part because their is rest time in your shifts. No mattresses equals no rest time. No rest time equals overtime for everything over 40 hours. It would be worth a shot anyway.
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    We just got new mattresses and they are to long for the bed frames. The city said there was no money for new frames......guess what we adapted and overcame.
    IACOJ Membership 2002
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    Mike IAFF

    The beatings will continue until the morale improves

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    Yeah tell the papers, cause people do not have jobs and are becoming homeless, but let's complain to the public we can not have new mattress'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    I know of a city in Mississippi that refused to pay the firefighters that were working 24 hour shifts more than 16 hours a day because they shouldn't be getting paid to sleep.

    That quickly changed after the Chief and Mayor found out that the entire city fire department left the stations and went home at 11:00 pm because they were not getting paid anymore.

    I would challenge this particular scenario with the FLSA laws. I think firefighters do not receive overtime until after working 56 hours a week in part because their is rest time in your shifts. No mattresses equals no rest time. No rest time equals overtime for everything over 40 hours. It would be worth a shot anyway.
    Sounds logical, if you look at it from another job standpoint are you going to stick around the office if someone said, well we want you to work a 16 hour day today but since you get a lunch break and a smoke break, and sometime during that time i guess you might have to use the bathroom, we are only going to pay you for 12? No probably not, firefighters dont get paid to sleep, they get paid to be ready to go 24 hours a day, but why am i explaining this you all of you, we all know that, its the public we need to convince.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtfd72 View Post
    My department has stated that they are no longer going to be buying mattress for the stations, if the crews want to get new mattresses then they have to buy them... DO anyone know of any rules (FMLA) that states that if the department is on 24hr shifts that they (department) have to supply mattresses for the crews?
    This is a change in working conditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyirons2 View Post
    Yeah tell the papers, cause people do not have jobs and are becoming homeless, but let's complain to the public we can not have new mattress'.
    And you would do what my friend?? What they said and not have a mattress for the rack?

    There were homeless people long before this dud city said that they weren't buying mattresses any more!!

    As my Brother in Memphis said push the issue. Get the FLSA involved.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    Oh, I'm sorry...I thought "capt old timeer" was on the same page as me. Guess not.

    Are we seriously thinking it'd be a good idea to go to the public with this!? Sometimes it's better to just keep quiet. This is the bitch you want your taxpayers to hear? Buy your own friggin mattresses. Pathetic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Oh, I'm sorry...I thought "capt old timeer" was on the same page as me. Guess not.

    Are we seriously thinking it'd be a good idea to go to the public with this!? Sometimes it's better to just keep quiet. This is the bitch you want your taxpayers to hear? Buy your own friggin mattresses. Pathetic!
    I have to agree. Tell someone who lost their job or can't afford their mortgage that the city wont buy you new mattresses. Good luck. I dont think alot of people care PERIOD. You'll potentially grab alot of negative publicity which will be hard to overcome. I know its important, we're here if they need us, we have to be rested and ready to go... I get it. Some fights are not worth fighting, and to me this is one of them. Depending on how the media write's/tell's your side of the story, you could look very negative and even foolish, and you'll be able to do little to change that.
    Last edited by CTJAKE; 02-20-2009 at 09:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zackman1801 View Post
    Sounds logical, if you look at it from another job standpoint are you going to stick around the office if someone said, well we want you to work a 16 hour day today but since you get a lunch break and a smoke break, and sometime during that time i guess you might have to use the bathroom, we are only going to pay you for 12?
    Actually, as I understand the law... There is a provision by which they can elect not to pay employees on 24 hour shifts if they get x number of hours of uninterrupted rest. So, if you sleep all night, they can pay you for 16 hours of a 24 hour shift and you essentially work the rest for free. I've never seen a fire department with this arrangement, but I have heard of it used in EMS before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cozmosis View Post
    Actually, as I understand the law... There is a provision by which they can elect not to pay employees on 24 hour shifts if they get x number of hours of uninterrupted rest. So, if you sleep all night, they can pay you for 16 hours of a 24 hour shift and you essentially work the rest for free. I've never seen a fire department with this arrangement, but I have heard of it used in EMS before.
    So put a class and a drill smack in the middle of X. Problem solved.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cozmosis View Post
    Actually, as I understand the law... There is a provision by which they can elect not to pay employees on 24 hour shifts if they get x number of hours of uninterrupted rest. So, if you sleep all night, they can pay you for 16 hours of a 24 hour shift and you essentially work the rest for free. I've never seen a fire department with this arrangement, but I have heard of it used in EMS before.
    but how do you know its going to be uninterrupted? You get paid to sleep at the station not because you like it or want to but because when the alarm goes off your ready to jump in the truck and be going. If they arent getting paid those hours but calls are still coming through they are working for nothing, which sucks.

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    29 CFR 785.22 Duty of 24 hours or more.
    (a) General. Where an employee is required
    to be on duty for 24 hours or more, the employer and the employee may agree to exclude bona fide meal periods and a bona fide regularly scheduled
    sleeping period of not more than 8 hours from hours worked, provided adequate sleeping facilities are furnished by the employer and the employee can usually enjoy an uninterrupted night’s sleep. If sleeping period is of more than 8 hours, only 8 hours will be credited. Where no expressed or implied agreement to the contrary is present, the 8 hours of sleeping time and lunch periods constitute hours worked.

    (Armour v. Wantock, 323 U.S. 126 (1944); Skidmore
    v. Swift, 323 U.S. 134 (1944); General Electric
    Co. v. Porter, 208 F. 2d 805 (C.A. 9, 1953), cert. denied, 347 U.S. 951, 975 (1954); Bowers v. Remington Rand, 64 F. Supp. 620 (S.D. Ill, 1946), aff’d 159 F. 2d 114 (C.A. 7, 1946) cert. denied 330 U.S. 843 (1947); Bell v. Porter, 159 F. 2d 117 (C.A. 7, 1946) cert. denied 330 U.S. 813 (1947); Bridgeman v. Ford, Bacon & Davis, 161 F. 2d 962 (C.A. 8, 1947); Rokey
    v. Day & Zimmerman, 157 F. 2d 736 (C.A. 8, 1946); McLaughlin v. Todd & Brown, Inc., 7 W.H. Cases 1014; 15 Labor Cases para. 64,606 (N.D. Ind. 1948); Campbell v. Jones & Laughlin, 70 F. Supp. 996 (W.D.
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

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