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    Default Why are you for seperation of EMS and Fire?

    Were you around before the integration and want thing to go back to the way they were? Do you just not like running EMS calls? Do you not like people?

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    HUH??? Did you post this meaning to post it elsewhere??
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by BillST View Post
    Were you around before the integration and want thing to go back to the way they were? Do you just not like running EMS calls? Do you not like people?

    I don't like EMS being used to argue against the staffing we have or the pay and benefits we recieve.

    Merging a low paid white collar health care field with a high-skilled, well paid (I won't call our salaries "high") blue collar labor intensive job has only caused problems and hasn't prevented closings of companies or reductions in staffing as was imagined by the first dopes who jumped on the EMS bandwaggon.

    I furthermore dont' like being exposed to numerous diseases(and in turn my family being exposed) for the equivilant of meal money. I don't like being used as an excuse for a "free" trip to the hospital for attention, a cab ride or medication. (free actually means you and me the taxpayer are footing the bill!)

    Does that answer your question?

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    HUH??? Did you post this meaning to post it elsewhere??
    No, but I did screw up and accidentally post it in fireground tactics the first time. How is this inappropriate for this forum?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    I don't like EMS being used to argue against the staffing we have or the pay and benefits we recieve.

    Merging a low paid white collar health care field with a high-skilled, well paid (I won't call our salaries "high") blue collar labor intensive job has only caused problems and hasn't prevented closings of companies or reductions in staffing as was imagined by the first dopes who jumped on the EMS bandwaggon.

    I furthermore dont' like being exposed to numerous diseases(and in turn my family being exposed) for the equivilant of meal money. I don't like being used as an excuse for a "free" trip to the hospital for attention, a cab ride or medication. (free actually means you and me the taxpayer are footing the bill!)

    Does that answer your question?

    FTM-PTB
    In a way yes. I am just trying to better understand why EMS isn't a welcomed responsibility by some.

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    Bottom line- Like it or not, Fire and EMS will always go together, period.

    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 02-18-2009 at 04:16 PM.

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    I joined the FD in 1982. I joined the local EMS agency in 1988. They are still separate agencies.

    In my area, that is the norm.

    People that want to do fire stuff, join the FD. People that want to do EMS stuff, join the EMS agency. People that want to do both...join both.

    Why do you want to force one on the other and/or vice versa?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    Bottom line- Like it or not, Fire and EMS will always go together, period.
    Words like "never" and "always"....

    "They'll never do that"!

    "We've always been a right to work state..."

    Never say "never" and don't bet the farm on "always".

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Words like "never" and "always"....

    "They'll never do that"!

    "We've always been a right to work state..."

    Never say "never" and don't bet the farm on "always".

    FTM-PTB

    FFFred always likes to disagree with Bou. FFFred never wants anything to do with California, "progressive" or Bou.
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 02-18-2009 at 04:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    I joined the FD in 1982. I joined the local EMS agency in 1988. They are still separate agencies.

    In my area, that is the norm.

    People that want to do fire stuff, join the FD. People that want to do EMS stuff, join the EMS agency. People that want to do both...join both.

    Why do you want to force one on the other and/or vice versa?
    I do not wish to force anything on anyone. That is why my first question was if some had joined the FD before the EMS was integrated. I can completely understand their distaste if that's not what the initially signed up for. Like I said I am just trying to better understand why EMS is loathed by some.

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    My FD started with EMS in the mid 1950's, when inhalators were put on the engine companies. Looking through the old log books, there were a lot of fires and a lot of "inhalator calls".

    For many small to medium sized citites and towns, EMS is what keep the $$$$$$ rolling in and the staffing levels where they are.

    Some FD's get little or no compensation for having EMS, while
    others get paid quite well in stipends and percentages of base salary for being a first responder. EMT or a Paramedic.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    FFFred always likes to disagree with Bou. FFFred never wants anything to do with California, "progressive" or Bou.
    Progressive...you mean like using Tillers on suburban roads that are wider than the NY Thruway that have no cars parked on the street because everyone has a 3-car garage? Yeah really progressive...perhaps you heard of something called a Rearmount aerial.

    I'll note you can't argue against my issues with EMS, that the additional service has now been used not to keep companies and staffing as originally planned..but to argue that less staffing is needed and companies could be shuttered. And that we don't deserve our pay because we are interupted by so many nusinance EMS runs.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Progressive...you mean like using Tillers on suburban roads that are wider than the NY Thruway that have no cars parked on the street because everyone has a 3-car garage? Yeah really progressive...perhaps you heard of something called a Rearmount aerial.

    I'll note you can't argue against my issues with EMS, that the additional service has now been used not to keep companies and staffing as originally planned..but to argue that less staffing is needed and companies could be shuttered. And that we don't deserve our pay because we are interupted by so many nusinance EMS runs.

    FTM-PTB
    Quote Originally Posted by CALFFBOU View Post
    FFFred always likes to disagree with Bou. FFFred never wants anything to do with California, "progressive" or Bou.
    See what I mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    I don't like EMS being used to argue against the staffing we have or the pay and benefits we recieve.

    Merging a low paid white collar health care field with a high-skilled, well paid (I won't call our salaries "high") blue collar labor intensive job has only caused problems and hasn't prevented closings of companies or reductions in staffing as was imagined by the first dopes who jumped on the EMS bandwaggon.

    I furthermore dont' like being exposed to numerous diseases(and in turn my family being exposed) for the equivilant of meal money. I don't like being used as an excuse for a "free" trip to the hospital for attention, a cab ride or medication. (free actually means you and me the taxpayer are footing the bill!)

    Does that answer your question?

    FTM-PTB
    Fred,

    I understand the sentiments of your post and am on your side. I however think you would have a hard time convincing most people that being an EMT or paramedic as low paid white collar health care and firefighters as being highly skilled.

    They are both blue collar jobs by the very nature of the work and only one of them obtains college level credit fro having it and requires continual college level training through out the profession.

    Your old school and I like it, but I think you should reconsider at least this comparison in your argument.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    They are both blue collar jobs by the very nature of the work and only one of them obtains college level credit fro having it and requires continual college level training through out the profession.
    "College level" is a pretty loose compliment these days. High schools with ashtrays is more like it. And I would hesitate to call EMS blue collar. While there is the rare case of a dirty run, around here the medics manage to keep themselves pretty clean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Fred,

    I understand the sentiments of your post and am on your side. I however think you would have a hard time convincing most people that being an EMT or paramedic as low paid white collar health care and firefighters as being highly skilled.

    They are both blue collar jobs by the very nature of the work and only one of them obtains college level credit fro having it and requires continual college level training through out the profession.

    Your old school and I like it, but I think you should reconsider at least this comparison in your argument.
    Look at how the Bureau of Labor and management groups look at it. Perhaps where you are from...but around here...Firemen are skilled blue collar labor (hense the reason we originally were members of the ALF and not CIO) and EMS ambulance types BLS and ALS are both White collar health care careers similar to nursing, respiratory therapists or even air traffic controllers.

    They are paid much less than us and have inferior benefits and promotional opportunities in most cases. There are many EMS centric bloggers and articles that will argue that they have very little in common with the fire service in terms of mission and responsiblity (other than the FD is no more dedicated to actual healthcare than a police department is.)

    EMS is routinely used to argue that we don't need our staffing (I know this happening in other places as well.) We don't need the companies we have (by using amature stats games) and We don't deserve our pay and benefits and should be more in line with EMS pay and benefits.

    EMS was supposed to be the "foot in the door" to alot of improvements for us and it has become nothing more than an unwanted burden.

    FTM-PTB

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    Ffred,You'd like it here. Separate paid ambulance. We occasionally help "package" on a MVA or provide lift assist but that's it. "cept you'd get bored quick. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whocares View Post
    "College level" is a pretty loose compliment these days. High schools with ashtrays is more like it. And I would hesitate to call EMS blue collar. While there is the rare case of a dirty run, around here the medics manage to keep themselves pretty clean.
    Blue Collar.

    White Collar

    In case you want to review.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 02-18-2009 at 07:50 PM.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Perhaps where you are from...but around here...Firemen are skilled blue collar labor (hense the reason we originally were members of the ALF and not CIO) and EMS ambulance types BLS and ALS are both White collar health care careers similar to nursing, respiratory therapists or even air traffic controllers.

    They are paid much less than us and have inferior benefits and promotional opportunities in most cases.
    I guess perspective is the difference as you are correct:

    Here, paramedics are paid more than firefighters and drivers, but less than Lieutenants (Company Officers), have more promotional opportunities, and share all of the same benefits - sometimes more.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    No EMS in my department, though we work very well with them. The bottom line is you have to do it (integrate) for the right reasons, not just for the money or overtime. For my department it makes no sense and no one wants to do it. Life it to precious to force the bone bus on anyone. Privates and third party EMS is the way to go in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Blue Collar.

    White Collar

    In case you want to review.
    Thanks for the study material. I guess ems are doing manual labor - just like any firefighter...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whocares View Post
    Thanks for the study material. I guess ems are doing manual labor - just like any firefighter...
    Following the links...it would seem that they might actually fit better in this new concept of a "Grey Collar" job.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Progressive...you mean like using Tillers on suburban roads that are wider than the NY Thruway that have no cars parked on the street because everyone has a 3-car garage? Yeah really progressive...perhaps you heard of something called a Rearmount aerial.

    I'll note you can't argue against my issues with EMS, that the additional service has now been used not to keep companies and staffing as originally planned..but to argue that less staffing is needed and companies could be shuttered. And that we don't deserve our pay because we are interupted by so many nusinance EMS runs.

    FTM-PTB
    Every area is different, and service needs are as well. We run medics on all of our engines and trucks, but we are not a transport agency. Even FDNY sends an engine on a medical call, no different then us, with one exception, our guys are trained (at least one) to a medic level. Private ambulance transports (county wide contract we have no control over).

    As for tillers in the suburbs, they certainly have their advantage. Most apartment units are beyond reach of ground ladders, but not considered high rise. Perhaps Bou has painted a picture of an OC suburbia, I dont know, but for us they work great. Many depts only run 3 on their trucks (believe it or not, some have 4), and have to optimize spotting, and positioning. The freeways are congested and tillers do make navigating them easier, as the trucks carry and do the extrication work. Most apartment complexes are tight to get into, and are built just beyond the reach of portable ladders as I mentioned. Most operate west coast style, wood ladders (Ok, some aluminum), chain saws, positive pressure, etc...just a different operation then yours, and obviously different type of construction. During the earthquakes, at least I can say for the Loma Prieta, a huge difference in response capability from a straight aerial to a tiller.

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    I recently visited with a department along the MS Gulf Coast. This department has never run EMS calls other than lifting assistance or MVC’s. The ambulance service for the area was a private ambulance service. When I went to go visit them I was surprised when I walked in through the truck bay and noticed EMS equipment in the Battalion Chief’s vehicle. When I asked them about it they told me they had recently started running EMS calls with the ambulance service. Most of the firefighters are only trained as first responders right now, but many of them want to go through EMT school. They said since they started running EMS calls their call volume went up 99%. This was a department that would only run two or three calls a week, and that was with a fully staffed paid department with 3 stations. Now they are running around 8-10 calls a day. The young guys love it. However a most of the old dogs still want to sit around the station. Now this department is looking at getting a Rescue unit, which the department has never had before.
    In that situation I can see how having Fire/EMS integrated is a good thing. The point was why should that city pay for a fully staffed fire department to man 3 stations with 3 engines and a ladder truck when they only made one-three calls a week? They could get the same response out of making the department volunteer and save them a lot of money.

    Most of the departments that I know of around where I live make it a requirement that you have to complete EMT-B within the first year of employment. The fire department in the city I live in runs the ALS ambulance service. There are only a handful of paid departments that I know of around me that do not require EMS training. Look at the departments that are now REQUIREING TO KEEP YOUR JOB paramedic school (…..Memphis…..).

    Yeah, I am still wet behind the ears when it comes to firefighting and EMS, I’ll be the first to admit that. I am no expert in management. I’m just throwing my 2cents out there.

    I cannot honestly say whether or not EMS should be integrated into the fire service or made a requirement for employment. On one hand I can understand the guys that say they are there for one reason, to fight fires, and want nothing to do with EMS. I can understand those that say they do not think it is right that a department forces you to go through EMS training to keep your job. On the other hand I can see where EMS training and EMS integrated fire departments can be a good thing.

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    Thanks for the responses so far guys.

    What I have found interesting is that some have said the integration hasn't afforded them the opportunities they were told it would. I say that because in my immediate area most rural departments started off strictly volunteer and then had one person staffing to run a first response vehicle for med calls. Then it was eventually moved up to two person staffing. Some now run more and there is talk of other departments being bumped up to three or four person staffing. The average call volume for structure fires in this county is about 10 including MA calls. So EMS really has provided a great deal of opportunity for the smaller departments in my area. Heck one department was going to pay for a new station just by soft billing patients for EMS.

    I do appreciate everyone's opinion on this and am in no trying to force my view of EMS on anyone else.
    Last edited by BillST; 02-19-2009 at 08:11 AM.

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