Thread: Repelling

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    Default Repelling

    Just curious, when you repell off a straight stick what knot would you prefer to use and how many rungs would you wrap?

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    Quote Originally Posted by firefighter3419 View Post
    Just curious, when you repell off a straight stick what knot would you prefer to use and how many rungs would you wrap?
    Why not just climb back down the ladder?
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

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    Are you looking to repell unwanted people who are trying to overtake your ladder? (i.e.; "repell boarders") In that case, shotguns and automatic/semi-automatic weapons.

    If you are looking to rappel off a ladder; my next question is why?
    Where is this ladder placed that the end is placed with the tips past and hanging over the edge of the building?
    I'm racking my brain trying to figure where on any fireground operation you would be in a situation to rappel off of a ladder....

    Any more info?

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    Those aren't my first questions. The first question (besides the obvious "why?" mentioned by previous posters) would be...is this straight stick truck even rated structurally for such an evolution? Just because it goes up high and has a place to attach an anchor point to does not mean it is rated for the torque etc caused by rappelling. If you're already wondering how many rungs to wrap that would indicate a strong possibility that you shouldn't be wrapping ANY due to mechanical failure potential.

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    do me a favor, next time you try this, scratch that, everytime you try this, PLEASE FILM IT!

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    What the Lt says. MANY straight sticks are not rated for this activity.Which could leave you like a bungee jumper with a 100'jump and a 110' cord. Not good! T.C.

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    As a Tech Rescue Junkie, I can attest to the fact that there are applications for this tactic. Getting over a wall, then inserting a crew in behind it is one, Some Water Rescue jobs over the years has involved the same approach, when the Ladder could not be lowered far enough to reach the victim. There are a lot more out there. Back to the OP: I use a Double Figure Eight, 3 rungs in from the tip, no wrap. If you're real nervous, a Prussic Safety off the 2nd Rung should help.
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    I can understand what the guys above are saying about rappelling off of a straight stick. Is your rig rated for it, i dont know, get with the manufacture of the rig. I wouldnt use your aerial ladder for this, just because its a high place to practice of doing a rappel. Like Woods said above, does this move have a place in a toolbox, sure. Has it been done before, sure. Think about how much it bounces and moves around just when you are climbing the ladder. Now think about how much more that thing is going to be moving around with all that force off of the tip. I cant give you an solid number for the amount of torque that you are applying on the rig, but its safe to say that it would be more.
    Your a daisy if you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    As a Tech Rescue Junkie, I can attest to the fact that there are applications for this tactic. Getting over a wall, then inserting a crew in behind it is one, Some Water Rescue jobs over the years has involved the same approach, when the Ladder could not be lowered far enough to reach the victim. There are a lot more out there. Back to the OP: I use a Double Figure Eight, 3 rungs in from the tip, no wrap. If you're real nervous, a Prussic Safety off the 2nd Rung should help.
    For getting over a wall such as a parapet it is easier, and faster to carry a folding (scissor ladder) on the tip of the aerial.

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    I would doubt a single rung of your ladder would be rated for a single person load let alone a 2 person load. I would doubt even more the ability of that rung to catch a shock load. Never mind the fact that just wrapping multiple rungs would do little to distribute the load accross them. High point anchors are wonderful when you have them, but sometimes other options need to be considered.
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    Other food for thought.... In technical rescue, you should not rappel off of anything. You should be lowered, on a lowering system. The only thing an 8-plate should be used for is to lower someone else down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ftfdverbenec770 View Post
    I can understand what the guys above are saying about rappelling off of a straight stick. Is your rig rated for it, i dont know, get with the manufacture of the rig. I wouldnt use your aerial ladder for this, just because its a high place to practice of doing a rappel. Like Woods said above, does this move have a place in a toolbox, sure. Has it been done before, sure. Think about how much it bounces and moves around just when you are climbing the ladder. Now think about how much more that thing is going to be moving around with all that force off of the tip. I cant give you an solid number for the amount of torque that you are applying on the rig, but its safe to say that it would be more.
    "More" is a relative term. Normally I would just read this and go on, but I just couldn't resist to add a little "mechanical numbers" to this discussion.

    For this discussion we have to make a couple of assumptions as the OP didn't indicate his weight and the length of the ladder. For this I am assuming that the OP has a 100' straight stick and he, in his full gear, weighs 300 pounds. Now for the fun stuff:

    With the ladder set at a 75 degree angle lets assume that the OP is standing on the rung 5 feet from the tip. That gives us a length of 95 feet from the turret to his feet. Now the "resultant" force of the OP would be 7,380 pound feet (((95' *75 cos = the horizontal distance in feet (X direction))*300 pounds). Now we need to do the same equation at 100 feet since the rope will be hanging off of the last rung. This "resultant" is 7,770 pound feet.

    Now lets look at the Delta Moment Change, which is ((7,770-7,380)/7380)*100. This gives us a 5.3% INCREASE in the pound feet of the Moment arm. This is not very much of an increase and should be well within any manufacture's safety factor.

    The two things that I am neglecting is a) weight of the rope and b) I am assuming that the OP was using his head and did not shock load the system by using a "nice, slow rappel". Granted if he was dropping quick and then "hit the brakes" this is going to shock the system and the above numbers would increase. This would be a somewhat difficult formula to work out because we would need to know several other factors.

    As long as the "force" of the attachment system is spread out, there should be no complications AS LONG AS the rappeler uses his head for something other than a place to hang the "cow".

    Now I will set back and prepare for the hail of fire I am sure to receive.
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    I know there is a Video out there im not really sure if it was out in Phoenix or in Florida. But the video goes with using the Ladder truck to make a technical rescue on a homeowners single story roof. Where the woman had fallen on the roof with multiple injuries. They used the ladder to get onto the roof and used a stokes basket attached to the ladder to lower her down. I'll try to find the video.

    Rob

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    As I have been taught, the center of any ladder rung is the weakest part of a ladder. Wrapping the beams with a sling of some sort to a center anchor point was always what I was taught, be it a portable ladder or an aerial device.

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    The first step in rope rescue is to know enough how to spell "rappelling". That being said, I think the best use of an ladder aerial ladder would be as a high anchor point. I can't figure what would cause someone to have the need to rappel from the top of a straight stick. Harve-I don't quite get what your driving at with rappelling over a wall (parapet? Use a ladder like previously mentioned).

    IF one had to rappel from an aerial device, I would think a tower ladder would be a better choice. Normally, they provide actual anchor points for such activities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cap6888 View Post
    The first step in rope rescue is to know enough how to spell "rappelling". That being said, I think the best use of an ladder aerial ladder would be as a high anchor point. I can't figure what would cause someone to have the need to rappel from the top of a straight stick. Harve-I don't quite get what your driving at with rappelling over a wall (parapet? Use a ladder like previously mentioned).

    IF one had to rappel from an aerial device, I would think a tower ladder would be a better choice. Normally, they provide actual anchor points for such activities.

    Stay Safe

    We did a Training Scenario in Structural Collapse where we placed a couple of people into a collapsed area, using the premise that the area would not stand for foot traffic across buckled roofing, etc. With a 40 ft. Vertical drop, a Ladder down from the stick was out of the Question. We also did a Pickup from an Ice covered Pond. And Yes, coming off a tower bucket is MUCH better than a straight stick.

    Some of us just like to jump off of perfectly good Ladders......
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    We did a Training Scenario in Structural Collapse where we placed a couple of people into a collapsed area, using the premise that the area would not stand for foot traffic across buckled roofing, etc. With a 40 ft. Vertical drop, a Ladder down from the stick was out of the Question. We also did a Pickup from an Ice covered Pond. And Yes, coming off a tower bucket is MUCH better than a straight stick.

    Some of us just like to jump off of perfectly good Ladders......
    Did they ascend back up?

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    The key to this is to make sure your anchor point is set up to reduce any possible twisting of the ladder. Obviously don't overload the rating for your ladder. Use a self equalizing anchor and wrap both the rung and beam to prevent movement of the anchor on the ladder.
    Don't use the ladder as a crane, don't shock load it, and I'd personally use the ladder as a last resort. A tower might be better only because of the usuall higher tip load. If your tower bucket doesn't have anchor points the wraps would be the same.
    We used a ground ladder as a jib off the rear of an engine before, so I have no problem using the main of a ladder truck.

    All just tools for the tool box

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    Just crusing through these postings, I havent seen anyone mention using a RPM system. Anyone using the Rack, Pulley, Mariner?


    Quote Originally Posted by eaglesrule1024 View Post
    I know there is a Video out there im not really sure if it was out in Phoenix or in Florida. But the video goes with using the Ladder truck to make a technical rescue on a homeowners single story roof. Where the woman had fallen on the roof with multiple injuries. They used the ladder to get onto the roof and used a stokes basket attached to the ladder to lower her down. I'll try to find the video.

    Rob
    Here is some thing close to that from Huntington Beach, CA...

    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 02-21-2009 at 11:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFIrish1 View Post
    Other food for thought.... In technical rescue, you should not rappel off of anything. You should be lowered, on a lowering system. The only thing an 8-plate should be used for is to lower someone else down.
    I can't disagree more. There are applications where the first rescuer may need to rappel down to start care. Then the rest is lowered in. As far as 8's go, they should go into the trash, storage or furnace. They have no place in techincal rescue at all. The amount of friction the can be gained from an 8 is not enough to safely control all loads. It also puts twists in the rope. A rack is the primary way to lower loads, the I'd is rapidly gaining favor as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFDRescue2 View Post
    Did they ascend back up?
    Yes. Sort Of........ On one, Ascenders were used to get back to within 5 feet of the Tower Bucket, then the Tower operator moved the Bucket to a point where they were set down on the ground. On the "Thin Ice" Job, Rescuer and Victim were lifted a few feet off the Ice by the Tower and swung over to the shore. Worked Great, as far as I'm concerned.....
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    well I found the two departments that National Geographic had a firefighting video on. Unfortunately I can't seem to find it anywhere. Any help much will be appreciated.


    Jupiter Entertainment of Clearwater, on behalf of National Geographic, was in town on March 9 to film Orange County Fire Rescue and its E-One (Emergency One) fire apparatus.

    During the shoot, the film crew captured video of the county's units responding to incidents and the fire apparatus being used on emergency scenes.

    The National Geographic Channel plans to use the footage as part of a show that will highlight modern fire apparatus and show how it provides services in varied ways. The Orange County Fire Rescue and Phoenix Fire Department will be the only departments featured.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglesrule1024 View Post
    I know there is a Video out there im not really sure if it was out in Phoenix or in Florida. But the video goes with using the Ladder truck to make a technical rescue on a homeowners single story roof. Where the woman had fallen on the roof with multiple injuries. They used the ladder to get onto the roof and used a stokes basket attached to the ladder to lower her down. I'll try to find the video.

    Rob

    We,ve used this technique before and have trained on this with both our platforms and straight stick aerials and has worked well. The difference here is the anchor system, raise and lower system are seperate from the stick. The ladder is just used as a high point change of direction basically. The OP here was questioning using the ladder rungs itself as an anchor to rappel. Bit of a difference there.
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterMerlin View Post
    "More" is a relative term. Normally I would just read this and go on, but I just couldn't resist to add a little "mechanical numbers" to this discussion.

    For this discussion we have to make a couple of assumptions as the OP didn't indicate his weight and the length of the ladder. For this I am assuming that the OP has a 100' straight stick and he, in his full gear, weighs 300 pounds. Now for the fun stuff:

    With the ladder set at a 75 degree angle lets assume that the OP is standing on the rung 5 feet from the tip. That gives us a length of 95 feet from the turret to his feet. Now the "resultant" force of the OP would be 7,380 pound feet (((95' *75 cos = the horizontal distance in feet (X direction))*300 pounds). Now we need to do the same equation at 100 feet since the rope will be hanging off of the last rung. This "resultant" is 7,770 pound feet.

    Now lets look at the Delta Moment Change, which is ((7,770-7,380)/7380)*100. This gives us a 5.3% INCREASE in the pound feet of the Moment arm. This is not very much of an increase and should be well within any manufacture's safety factor.

    The two things that I am neglecting is a) weight of the rope and b) I am assuming that the OP was using his head and did not shock load the system by using a "nice, slow rappel". Granted if he was dropping quick and then "hit the brakes" this is going to shock the system and the above numbers would increase. This would be a somewhat difficult formula to work out because we would need to know several other factors.

    As long as the "force" of the attachment system is spread out, there should be no complications AS LONG AS the rappeler uses his head for something other than a place to hang the "cow".

    Now I will set back and prepare for the hail of fire I am sure to receive.
    Fellow West Virginian:

    I'm not a math guy so bear with me. Wouldn't the horizontal distance in your equation be much less than 75'? That's the vertical distance, the horizontal is probably more like 20'. You can e-mail me the response if you want so we don't hog this board with math geek stuff. rescue-2@comcast.net

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFDRescue2 View Post
    Fellow West Virginian:

    I'm not a math guy so bear with me. Wouldn't the horizontal distance in your equation be much less than 75'? That's the vertical distance, the horizontal is probably more like 20'. You can e-mail me the response if you want so we don't hog this board with math geek stuff. rescue-2@comcast.net
    Sorry DCFDRescue2. This week starts our annual fire school (ESCAPe) and I'm in class all week so I didn't look at the forums until late. In the equation the cosine of 75 is actually the cosine of 75 degrees. This is assuming that the ladder is set on, if I remember correctly, the proper climbing angle. Cosine 75 times 95 feet (hypotenuse) gives us the adjacent leg of the triangle or the horizontal dimension.

    Does that make more sense? I didn't do a very good job of explaining it the first time. I'll shoot you an email that you can respond to if you want to keep the rest of the "math" stuff off of here.

    The reason I responded here was that I though maybe someone else questioned it as well.
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