Thread: Help with LDH

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    Default Help with LDH

    Looking for some help writting for LDH. We currently run 2- 2 1/2 from hydrant to pumper. Are there any NFPA regs? If you want to share a successful narrative that would be fine as I have successful narratives on scba's and turnout I would share.
    Last edited by admpaul; 02-19-2009 at 06:54 PM. Reason: ampaul@centurytel.net

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    Drop me a PM or email with your email and I'll send you a copy of my water supply grant that was awarded this year (can't send attachments through the option on your profile). While it had some other things like TurboDrafts, hard suction, and strainers, I also got LDH, adapters, and intake valves.

    Just don't get in a huge hurry, I have to work an extra 8 hours after I get off shift in the morning. It may even be Saturday before I get it sent, as it's on my home computer.

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    Hey Catch22, if I could get in on that application also I would appreciate it. Looking for LDH and adapters along with butterfly valves for drafting. Thanks for any help!
    mcfdrichey@gmail.com

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    Default Ldh

    If not a problem can you also email me a copy.
    jdrucker@donaldsfd.com

    thanks

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    The benefits of LDH are explained in 1142 Annex D. " Where delivery rates exceed 500gpm and water is moved long distances, large diameter hose provides the most efficient means of minimizing friction loss and developing the full potential of both water supplies and pumping capacity."

    For our grant which included 5" LDH we also requested and were awarded the LDH along with a storz adapter for every intake on the dept, intake valves, storzs adapters for all hydrant bags, 5" valves for filling tankers ( tenders..... whatever ) from hydrants, 2 1/2 valves w/ 5" storz adapters for the other hydrant ports to be kept in hydrant bags, 2 1/2 to 5" siamese to relay pump LDH, so on and so forth. Do you have any spanner wrenches for LDH? If not, include them. We also got some permanent storz adapters for some of our hydrants.

    Figure out every last adapter, valve, tool, widget.... whatever you can justify to make the package fully operational and put it in the request. Don't skimp or you may have to dig deep to fill in the gaps to get where you need to be.

    We also measured our longest LDH lays to cover our target hazards, or to cover areas with inadequate water supply to justify the amount requested.

    Are you the only department around that doesn't have LDH? Well then the award would help with interoperability. Do you have MABAS or mutual aid agreements? Then the LDH would be available to help other companies in an emergency.

    1500 gpm pump? Can't supply that with double 2 1/2's. LDH would help maximize the full use of your existing pumps.

    Don't forget to inform them of who will train you in the use of these appliances and hose the likes of which you do not currently have or are familiar with.

    Just a few points that worked for us.
    Last edited by DFDMAXX; 02-19-2009 at 09:01 PM.

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    While I don't have any advice on writing the grant, I would strongly suggest you stay clear of 4". It is completely inferior for any flow above 1,000 GPM, and most anything else farther than a 1,000' lay.

    And if you want a really nice intake valve that can pulls double duty for drafting & hydrant use, look to the TFT Jumbo Ball Intake Valve, model AX8NX-NX. It has 6" threads on both sides. All you need is an adapter to go back to the appropriate storz connection you plan on using.
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post

    And if you want a really nice intake valve that can pulls double duty for drafting & hydrant use, look to the TFT Jumbo Ball Intake Valve, model AX8NX-NX. It has 6" threads on both sides. All you need is an adapter to go back to the appropriate storz connection you plan on using.
    Or just order the AX3ST-NX which is 6"F x 5"S (AX3SX-NX is 6"F x 6"S)

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    Wink Don't forget about excess funds

    Quote Originally Posted by DFDMAXX View Post
    The benefits of LDH are explained in 1142 Annex D. " Where delivery rates exceed 500gpm and water is moved long distances, large diameter hose provides the most efficient means of minimizing friction loss and developing the full potential of both water supplies and pumping capacity."

    For our grant which included 5" LDH we also requested and were awarded the LDH along with a storz adapter for every intake on the dept, intake valves, storzs adapters for all hydrant bags, 5" valves for filling tankers ( tenders..... whatever ) from hydrants, 2 1/2 valves w/ 5" storz adapters for the other hydrant ports to be kept in hydrant bags, 2 1/2 to 5" siamese to relay pump LDH, so on and so forth. Do you have any spanner wrenches for LDH? If not, include them. We also got some permanent storz adapters for some of our hydrants.

    Figure out every last adapter, valve, tool, widget.... whatever you can justify to make the package fully operational and put it in the request. Don't skimp or you may have to dig deep to fill in the gaps to get where you need to be.

    We also measured our longest LDH lays to cover our target hazards, or to cover areas with inadequate water supply to justify the amount requested.

    Are you the only department around that doesn't have LDH? Well then the award would help with interoperability. Do you have MABAS or mutual aid agreements? Then the LDH would be available to help other companies in an emergency.

    1500 gpm pump? Can't supply that with double 2 1/2's. LDH would help maximize the full use of your existing pumps.

    Don't forget to inform them of who will train you in the use of these appliances and hose the likes of which you do not currently have or are familiar with.

    Just a few points that worked for us.
    To expand on a lot of great information provided by DFDMAXX, for little items like spanner wrenches, 4x5 reducers, and other miscellaneous stuff, I would suggest bumping the $ requested on the main item (the hose) slightly to cover the small stuff. Ex. If you apply for 25 lengths of 5", bump the price of each length of hose on your app. by $100. You will end up with $2,500 of excess funds that you can use to buy all the little stuff like the $50 spanner wrenches. Applying for this little stuff on your app must lower your grant score and makes it into a laundry list. I think it is hard to justify that you can't afford this little stuff on your own and excess funds are allowed and for this purpose. You end up with the same project cost either way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Drop me a PM or email with your email and I'll send you a copy of my water supply grant that was awarded this year (can't send attachments through the option on your profile). While it had some other things like TurboDrafts, hard suction, and strainers, I also got LDH, adapters, and intake valves.

    Just don't get in a huge hurry, I have to work an extra 8 hours after I get off shift in the morning. It may even be Saturday before I get it sent, as it's on my home computer.
    Hey Catch 22,

    A mutual aid company has just asked me to do a grant for 5" for them, is there a chance you can send me a copy?

    You can send it to: mmpwfierco@innernet.net

    Thanks

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    To touch on the intake valve thing, we purchased the TFT Jumbo BIV's with the remote control package. Our is set up with the 6" male threads coming out as opposed to the 5" Storz. What we're going to do is leave the 6" males coming out so that we can hook our suction lines to them when drafting. When using our low-level strainers out of a dump tank, we can use the siphon on the strainer to prime the suction line and switch from tank water to draft without losing pressure.

    In order to use the 5" hose, we simply screw on a 6" female x 5" Storz adapter and lock the hose in. It might take an extra 10-15 seconds, but that shouldn't run us out of water by any means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fighting41NY View Post
    To expand on a lot of great information provided by DFDMAXX, for little items like spanner wrenches, 4x5 reducers, and other miscellaneous stuff, I would suggest bumping the $ requested on the main item (the hose) slightly to cover the small stuff. Ex. If you apply for 25 lengths of 5", bump the price of each length of hose on your app. by $100. You will end up with $2,500 of excess funds that you can use to buy all the little stuff like the $50 spanner wrenches. Applying for this little stuff on your app must lower your grant score and makes it into a laundry list. I think it is hard to justify that you can't afford this little stuff on your own and excess funds are allowed and for this purpose. You end up with the same project cost either way.
    Why not just ask for it in the grant instead of using your excess funds? As long as part of the total solution and you can explain the need in the narrative and why it's associated with the project, there shouldn't be any problems getting it awarded with the entire package. You just have to write it up in the narrative right. Our project is probably as close to a laundry list you can get, as it has three different lengths of LDH, a slew of adapters and wyes, two sizes of hard suction, two sizes of two different kinds of strainers, and two sizes of Turbo Drafts.

    Maybe it's a perspective thing, but I picture the "laundry list" as projects over different categories. If you're doing "water supply", dont' put in bunker gear, etc, but get what you need to make where you can supply water. If you're asking for PPE, stick with PPE and don't add the hose, nozzles, etc.

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    I think I've got all you guys that asked a copy of the narrative. If missed anyone, let me know.

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    Catch22, thanks for the narrative! Very greatful!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    To touch on the intake valve thing, we purchased the TFT Jumbo BIV's with the remote control package. Our is set up with the 6" male threads coming out as opposed to the 5" Storz. What we're going to do is leave the 6" males coming out so that we can hook our suction lines to them when drafting. When using our low-level strainers out of a dump tank, we can use the siphon on the strainer to prime the suction line and switch from tank water to draft without losing pressure.

    In order to use the 5" hose, we simply screw on a 6" female x 5" Storz adapter and lock the hose in. It might take an extra 10-15 seconds, but that shouldn't run us out of water by any means.
    If you want an even simpler solution, instead of puting the 6" cap on those valves, put on the 6" FNST to 5" storz adapter with a blind storz cap. Purchase the adapter with the handles on so you can remove it with the same tool you have in your hand already for the hard suction: the connection mallet. Either way you must remove something to draft, in this case a cap or an adapter. But with the adapter already in place you will never have to get it out and put it on before connecting LDH and STILL have to remove the 6" cap.

    If you go this route, get the part time swivel adapter so you can position the storz lock making it easy to see before tightning the adapter locking the swivel in place. I wouldn't suggest the full time or double swivel because it won't tighten and lock in place, it will just keep turning while you try to click the storz into place.

    I set up every single intake on my dept this way. Thank you AFG.

    Also you don't have to specify how many different lengths of LDH you need to buy. Since you state the amount requested in total feet, not lengths ( unless something changed since ours ) You are free to get as many different lengths as you need as long as the total feet equals the requested amount.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DFDMAXX View Post
    If you want an even simpler solution, instead of puting the 6" cap on those valves, put on the 6" FNST to 5" storz adapter with a blind storz cap. Purchase the adapter with the handles on so you can remove it with the same tool you have in your hand already for the hard suction: the connection mallet. Either way you must remove something to draft, in this case a cap or an adapter. But with the adapter already in place you will never have to get it out and put it on before connecting LDH and STILL have to remove the 6" cap.

    If you go this route, get the part time swivel adapter so you can position the storz lock making it easy to see before tightning the adapter locking the swivel in place. I wouldn't suggest the full time or double swivel because it won't tighten and lock in place, it will just keep turning while you try to click the storz into place.

    I set up every single intake on my dept this way. Thank you AFG.
    Actually, we don't even put a cap on it. Because we only have 10' bay doors and it gets damn tight, we keep the 6" F x 5" Storz adapter in the engineer's compartment. When we need it, it's just a couple of feet away. Otherwise, we've got the 6" coming out of the BIV ready for suction hose.

    Quote Originally Posted by DFDMAXX View Post
    Also you don't have to specify how many different lengths of LDH you need to buy. Since you state the amount requested in total feet, not lengths ( unless something changed since ours ) You are free to get as many different lengths as you need as long as the total feet equals the requested amount.
    Actually, when you go into the request details to put in your information, it asks you for the number of units. What I ended up doing was to put in for 38 units (30- 100', 4- 50', and 4- 25') and averaged the cost to coincide with the quotes I was using. When I did the narrative, I described what I was doing. I did the same thing on the adapters and most everything else, rather than itemizing them piece by piece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Actually, we don't even put a cap on it. Because we only have 10' bay doors and it gets damn tight, we keep the 6" F x 5" Storz adapter in the engineer's compartment. When we need it, it's just a couple of feet away. Otherwise, we've got the 6" coming out of the BIV ready for suction hose.



    Actually, when you go into the request details to put in your information, it asks you for the number of units. What I ended up doing was to put in for 38 units (30- 100', 4- 50', and 4- 25') and averaged the cost to coincide with the quotes I was using. When I did the narrative, I described what I was doing. I did the same thing on the adapters and most everything else, rather than itemizing them piece by piece.

    Hmmmm..... 10' doors. I can see where this would be a problem. I just have gotten into the habit of making everything idiotproof, because I've had too many incidents where we " Didn't have the right F'ing adapter " when it was sitting right where it should be in the engineers compartment. I even labeled everything to make it easy to figure out in a hurry. No dice. So now I put an adapter on every intake or discharge so it's ready to go no matter the mission. I know we are in a hurry, but some people can be in SO much of a hurry.

    As for the LDH, things must have changed since our grant. A unit was 1', 2000' equaled 2000 units. Thanks for the update.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DFDMAXX View Post
    Hmmmm..... 10' doors. I can see where this would be a problem. I just have gotten into the habit of making everything idiotproof, because I've had too many incidents where we " Didn't have the right F'ing adapter " when it was sitting right where it should be in the engineers compartment. I even labeled everything to make it easy to figure out in a hurry. No dice. So now I put an adapter on every intake or discharge so it's ready to go no matter the mission. I know we are in a hurry, but some people can be in SO much of a hurry.

    As for the LDH, things must have changed since our grant. A unit was 1', 2000' equaled 2000 units. Thanks for the update.
    Yeah, the doors really suck. Hopefully we'll get this building bought and be in a station with 12'x14' doors (as opposed to 10'x10'). The rear of the trucks are set up as you describe, with all the adapters attached. It does make it nice. When we get into the new building, we'll likely do the same, but still leave it uncapped.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Or just order the AX3ST-NX which is 6"F x 5"S (AX3SX-NX is 6"F x 6"S)
    If he's using 6" Hard Suction, then he's only restricting his intake volume by moving to a 5" connection.

    Anytime 6" HSH is used, nothing smaller than 6" should be in the system, because it creates a bottle neck and restricts flow.
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortsutphen View Post
    Hey Catch 22,

    A mutual aid company has just asked me to do a grant for 5" for them, is there a chance you can send me a copy?

    You can send it to: mmpwfierco@innernet.net

    Thanks
    Hey Catch22, I noticed this request was sent to you for a narrative. I also tried to send one using this address and found that it is wrong. The correct email address should be:

    mmpwfireco@innernet.net

    Thanks for being willing to help out.

    Kelly

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    Quote Originally Posted by imafireman View Post
    Hey Catch22, I noticed this request was sent to you for a narrative. I also tried to send one using this address and found that it is wrong. The correct email address should be:

    mmpwfireco@innernet.net

    Thanks for being willing to help out.

    Kelly
    I actually figured that out when it got sent back to me as undeliverable. The only thing I could find was that "fire" was misspelled. It went through, hopefully to the right guy.

    Thanks, though!

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    please send me narrative thanks firebill2091@msn.com

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    Question

    I could also use a little help with a hose grant. If anyone can forward me what you have I would appreciate it. By the way I have one for turnout gear if anyone needs help with that (successful).

    Does anyone know if they have a dollar figure cap on the cost of a length of hose? For all the different sizes? Was just curious because I know they place a high dollar cap on alot of other things. Anyway if anyone has anything as far as narratives for any/all types of hose I would appreciate the help. Address is below.

    RsnFyr77@comcast.net

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    Catch22 I did not recieve your narrative please try to send again.
    Thanks Aaron ampaul@centurytel.net

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    Wink Catch22, Imagine you are a Programmer trying to write the AFG computer formula

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    To touch on the intake valve thing, we purchased the TFT Jumbo BIV's with the remote control package. Our is set up with the 6" male threads coming out as opposed to the 5" Storz. What we're going to do is leave the 6" males coming out so that we can hook our suction lines to them when drafting. When using our low-level strainers out of a dump tank, we can use the siphon on the strainer to prime the suction line and switch from tank water to draft without losing pressure.

    In order to use the 5" hose, we simply screw on a 6" female x 5" Storz adapter and lock the hose in. It might take an extra 10-15 seconds, but that shouldn't run us out of water by any means.



    Why not just ask for it in the grant instead of using your excess funds? As long as part of the total solution and you can explain the need in the narrative and why it's associated with the project, there shouldn't be any problems getting it awarded with the entire package. You just have to write it up in the narrative right. Our project is probably as close to a laundry list you can get, as it has three different lengths of LDH, a slew of adapters and wyes, two sizes of hard suction, two sizes of two different kinds of strainers, and two sizes of Turbo Drafts.

    Maybe it's a perspective thing, but I picture the "laundry list" as projects over different categories. If you're doing "water supply", dont' put in bunker gear, etc, but get what you need to make where you can supply water. If you're asking for PPE, stick with PPE and don't add the hose, nozzles, etc.
    In my mind that is full of 0's, 1's, bytes and bits, I believe that when the compute scores you, it looks at the checkboxes you select under each item and assigns them a weighted score based on the questions, is it required by statute, the age, the type of item, etc. If you have multiple items, laundry list, I would think it would have to average the score from each individual item to get a total score. Anytime you average a group of numbers the mean is going to be lower then the priority item. How else could the computer rank and score the priority items and give higher weighting to dept's with old non-compliant equipment? The computer score also must look at your call volume, population, etc. It somehow assigns a higher need or priority to certain items. Having all this clutter of little items in the application and narrative seems like it would hurt your average score. Use of Excess funds doesn't get scored and it simplifies your entire application and narrative. If I new the scoring system, I would be a popular guy. When every point counts, I would plan to use excess funds to cover the little stuff. 1 item, 1 score. As shown by this program, if you have the right stats, some dept's can fund just about any project, even a $750,000 ladder. I agree 100% with the total solution, just suggesting to eliminate the clutter.

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    Catch 22 I would like a copy of the narrative also, Thank You in advance. rcoggsdale@yahoo.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    If he's using 6" Hard Suction, then he's only restricting his intake volume by moving to a 5" connection.

    Anytime 6" HSH is used, nothing smaller than 6" should be in the system, because it creates a bottle neck and restricts flow.
    Not enough to matter.

    How many FD do you know that are using 6" LDH?

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