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    Default A Forward Thinking City. Well Done!

    http://www.officer.com/web/online/Top-News-Stories/Minnesota-Police-Department-Cross-Trains-Officers-as-Firefighters/1$41199

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    Your kidding.....right?
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    that's good, under staff your fire dept, then make up for it by having cops supplement manpower. Now you have a poorly staffed FD and PD, very progressive.

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    A very, very poor idea and in no way is it prgressive. The only reason the Cops are supporting it is because they get the extra pay.

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    The only thing I personally can see being decent along the same lines is giving police officer's the training and equipment to do early cardiac and EMS tasks. The nature of their patrols and being on the street could make a difference in rapid treatment, drug interventions and so forth, but not at the expense of reducing staffing on the fire and EMS side.
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801 View Post
    The only thing I personally can see being decent along the same lines is giving police officer's the training and equipment to do early cardiac and EMS tasks. The nature of their patrols and being on the street could make a difference in rapid treatment, drug interventions and so forth, but not at the expense of reducing staffing on the fire and EMS side.
    this is true. the same reason why fire based first response EMS is a good idea, is the same reason police officers should respond if available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trizahler26 View Post
    http://www.officer.com/web/online/Top-News-Stories/Minnesota-Police-Department-Cross-Trains-Officers-as-Firefighters/1$41199
    Son.....Fat, drunk, and stupid are no way to go through life.
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    Default re: a "forward looking city"

    One step forward... ten steps back.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    I have to remain consistent here. Just as I don't believe EMS should be in the fire service I don't think the PD should be involved in EMS or Fire Suppression.

    However, on the flip side. I can see this as being a viable solution for many cities. Rather than have Firefighters, EMTs, and Police Officers you would have public safety officers trained in all three disciplines. This gives a larger labor pool allowing for more efficient staffing decsions. For instance, There are 7 fire fighters, 4 EMTs, and 6 Police officers slots to fill each shift. 2 of the fire fighters call out. Rather than a 7 man duty crew being reduced to 5 men, you simply take two of the Police guys and move them over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I have to remain consistent here. Just as I don't believe EMS should be in the fire service I don't think the PD should be involved in EMS or Fire Suppression.

    However, on the flip side. I can see this as being a viable solution for many cities. Rather than have Firefighters, EMTs, and Police Officers you would have public safety officers trained in all three disciplines. This gives a larger labor pool allowing for more efficient staffing decsions. For instance, There are 7 fire fighters, 4 EMTs, and 6 Police officers slots to fill each shift. 2 of the fire fighters call out. Rather than a 7 man duty crew being reduced to 5 men, you simply take two of the Police guys and move them over.
    Well, the first part was consistent. However, it's debatable whether or not this is a "viable solution".

    Let's assume, based on these numbers that as seperate agencies, unit staffing on a daily basis is 2 fire apparatus, 2 ambulances and 6 patrol cars. In order maintain the same "apparatus" response times, at least 4 people will have to be assigned to the fire & ems apparatus. Now you're already on record as opposed to sending a 40,000 pound vehicle to medical calls, so I guess these units would be in station between calls and not "on patrol".

    If 2 ambulances were staffed in the past, then there's a high likelihood that the community has a decent EMS call volume, so it's likely that 2 more people will not be available for "patrol" a good bit of the day. So from an EMS/patient care perspective, we haven't gained much of anything that couldn't be achieved by simply having a PD first responder program.

    We'll further assume that the remaining 5 "fireman" are now on "patrol" duties between calls instead of being at the station because otherwise, what's the point of cross training them as PD if they're just going to sit in the fire station. So we've potentially increased the "police function", but likely lost a lot of the "between call function" of the FD. We could easily pull a patrol unit or two to do fire inspections, fire safety programs, etc, but if this component of your FD is fairly active, then you've lost part of that increased "police function".

    You've also potentially created a logistical nightmare, particularly on the PD side. Each unit generally has a zone to patrol. What do you do as these units move from PD function to Fire/EMS functions? Who patrols the now uncovered zones?

    What about the public? Will this new arrangement "confuse" then in some respects? If everyone is a PD officer too, then it would reason that they'd have the authourity to make a traffic stop while driving one of the engines or ambulances. Will getting them to pull over and stop be as effective as if it were a patrol car? Would an engine be able to participate in any sort of pursuit?

    I see a whole lot of reasons why this wouldn't be a better deployment of personnel and we haven't even talked about whether or not all of these people will be able to perform adequately enough in all 3 roles.

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    That idea aint worth a velvet painting of a whale and dolphin getting it on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firehick View Post
    That idea aint worth a velvet painting of a whale and dolphin getting it on.
    Very few things are.

    It was tried in a couple communites down here and it failed. The logistics are a bear as stated above. You've doubled your training budget. Instead of say 100 people keeping thier cop certs up and 50 firefighters keeping up wiht their FF traing you now have 150 people to be kept up with everything.

    From a performance standpoint you can only be good at so many things before you aren't good at any of them. How much specialization is their in each respective service?
    I may speak gibberish, but I don't talk s***! -- Dropkick Murphys

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Well, the first part was consistent. However, it's debatable whether or not this is a "viable solution".

    Let's assume, based on these numbers that as seperate agencies, unit staffing on a daily basis is 2 fire apparatus, 2 ambulances and 6 patrol cars. In order maintain the same "apparatus" response times, at least 4 people will have to be assigned to the fire & ems apparatus. Now you're already on record as opposed to sending a 40,000 pound vehicle to medical calls, so I guess these units would be in station between calls and not "on patrol".

    If 2 ambulances were staffed in the past, then there's a high likelihood that the community has a decent EMS call volume, so it's likely that 2 more people will not be available for "patrol" a good bit of the day. So from an EMS/patient care perspective, we haven't gained much of anything that couldn't be achieved by simply having a PD first responder program.

    We'll further assume that the remaining 5 "fireman" are now on "patrol" duties between calls instead of being at the station because otherwise, what's the point of cross training them as PD if they're just going to sit in the fire station. So we've potentially increased the "police function", but likely lost a lot of the "between call function" of the FD. We could easily pull a patrol unit or two to do fire inspections, fire safety programs, etc, but if this component of your FD is fairly active, then you've lost part of that increased "police function".

    You've also potentially created a logistical nightmare, particularly on the PD side. Each unit generally has a zone to patrol. What do you do as these units move from PD function to Fire/EMS functions? Who patrols the now uncovered zones?

    What about the public? Will this new arrangement "confuse" then in some respects? If everyone is a PD officer too, then it would reason that they'd have the authourity to make a traffic stop while driving one of the engines or ambulances. Will getting them to pull over and stop be as effective as if it were a patrol car? Would an engine be able to participate in any sort of pursuit?

    I see a whole lot of reasons why this wouldn't be a better deployment of personnel and we haven't even talked about whether or not all of these people will be able to perform adequately enough in all 3 roles.
    Here is the thing with patrol. Most of the time these guys are simply riding around looking for speeders and traffic infractions. So rather than giving out tickets, they save a life or put out a fire. In essence, the idea would give you a bigger more effective team.

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    Scarecrow,You DON'T REALLY relieve that s**t DO YOU? Every place that I know that's tried it(mixing police/fire)as PSO's has had, at best, a less than mediocre outcome. It's just a p**s poor idea,PERIOD! Blue stays on the Blue line,Red stays on the RED line. Pure and simple. Or let the bean counters try our jobs,they'll give 'em back quick enough. They'd rather set on their uneducated a**es and do what they do best.Screw up a working deal. T.C.

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    Progressive would be cutting back on the police and giving all the fireman guns.

    Okay, progressive is not the right word, but the right word escapes me.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Scarecrow,You DON'T REALLY relieve that s**t DO YOU? Every place that I know that's tried it(mixing police/fire)as PSO's has had, at best, a less than mediocre outcome. It's just a p**s poor idea,PERIOD! Blue stays on the Blue line,Red stays on the RED line. Pure and simple. Or let the bean counters try our jobs,they'll give 'em back quick enough. They'd rather set on their uneducated a**es and do what they do best.Screw up a working deal. T.C.
    There are 3 public safety groups, fire fighting, EMS, and Law Enforcement. If you can mix two why not three? How can you mix Fire and EMS but not Fire and Law Enforcement?

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    Guess you haven't been paying attention. We DO NOT mix them. Occasional first responder but no EMS here. That you can count. And as a solution to staffing? See above. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Here is the thing with patrol. Most of the time these guys are simply riding around looking for speeders and traffic infractions. So rather than giving out tickets, they save a life or put out a fire. In essence, the idea would give you a bigger more effective team.
    I guess my post went right over your head.

    Yes, there are aspects of the overall operation that could be "enhanced" in this type of set up, but there's also aspects of the individual and overall operations that will be sacrificed in return.

    You can pretty much achieve the same "life saving" benefit by having the current PD respond to EMS calls. I agree that saving a life and putting out fires are good things, but so is traffic enforcement and other "routine" police activity.

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    The only thing PD should be mixed with is EMS. The township next to me has adequate EMS staffing provided by a service that runs all over the county. The PD has made one of the suburbans into a QRS so they can be there for rapid aid. That works well without decreasing staffing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    There are 3 public safety groups, fire fighting, EMS, and Law Enforcement. If you can mix two why not three? How can you mix Fire and EMS but not Fire and Law Enforcement?
    Just a few reasons off the top of my head while it's easy to mix Fire and EMS, but not PD:

    1. PD is generally much busier than Fire & EMS.
    2. There is much clearer overlap in function between Fire & EMS than there is with PD. Any "rescue" situation involves pt care (EMS) AND skills/equipment usually found in the FD. To appropriately perform that rescue requires an integration of pt care while performing the technical parts of the rescue.
    3. At least in my experience, many, many more people working in Fire or EMS, are also involved with the other and very few are also involved with PD work.

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    This is a department(s) not far from where I live that uses the cross-trained system. I personally haven't heard anyone on the good/bad/indifferent bandwagon about how they do things other than they are a very aggressive police department. I personally don't like the idea of the system other than PD having AED's if you're in an area that has an extended EMS/FD response. Apparently this works for them as they have a low crime rate and few fires, but thats just my two cents.

    http://amberleyvillage.org/Police_an...partment.shtml

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    In addition to the multiple issues involving logistics, staffing, etc, don't you think there is a certain point where it becomes too much?

    Most LEOs attitude on scene is not neccesarily helpful when you are trying to talk to a patient, and its not really their fault, the public that you often end up serving(low income) just does not have a very favorable view of law enforcement.

    There are many on these forums who beleive that cross staffing EMS and fire is too many disciplines to master, especially when you consider all the different services fire departments provide. While I don't neccesarily agree with this sentiment, I definitely don't think that Law enforcement, fire and EMS should ever be combined. There is just too much to each job that you need to know, it would be very difficult to become good at all three.

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    In my area...

    PD based EMS systems are becoming common. FD based EMS systems are rare.

    PD are dispatched to all PD calls (of course) as well as all FD calls and EMS calls. They are on scene first 99.9% of the time. They are trained as EMT's and trained on use of extinguishers that they carry in their cars. They do/will/have made entry into fires attempting rescue and/or knockdown. They don't carry PPE and this severely limits their entry ability. It works well.

    Only "negative" comment is from some FD members that get upset the PD is knocking the fire down before FD arrives. Ya, that's a valid arguement.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Here is the thing with patrol. Most of the time these guys are simply riding around looking for speeders and traffic infractions. So rather than giving out tickets, they save a life or put out a fire. In essence, the idea would give you a bigger more effective team.
    You're kidding, right?

    In a former life, I was a patrol officer for 12 years for 2 different police departments. Contrary to what T.V. shows portray, not every (in fact, very few) departments, at least in my part of the country, have a room full of CSI types just waiting to run out to any old crime scene.

    In other words, even though I was a uniform officer, I was expected to conduct follow up investigation on most of the crimes reported to me. About the only thing that went to investigations were major crimes of violence-usually sexual assaults and homicides. The rest were mostly left to patrol-I regularly investigated everything from burglaries to drive by shootings to felony assaults. I was not out just "riding around looking for speeders".

    It's been my personal experience that most (emphasis on "most") cops have no interest whatsoever in doing the fire/ems thing. Yeah, there's a few (me for one) but they're pretty much few and far between. And, unlike the fire service, law enforcement has been having trouble recruiting quality people. Add to the mix that they're going to have to do fire and ems along with law enforcement, and I think your pool of qualified, quality candidates has really slimmed down. I'm not saying that it couldn't be done, on a limited basis, in, say, a really small jurisdiction-but like others have said, I think you're going to run into people who are in it for just the fire/ems or just the law enforcement-and their job performance is going to suffer in the other area.
    Last edited by HuskerMedic; 04-01-2009 at 08:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    In my area...

    PD based EMS systems are becoming common. FD based EMS systems are rare.

    PD are dispatched to all PD calls (of course) as well as all FD calls and EMS calls. They are on scene first 99.9% of the time. They are trained as EMT's and trained on use of extinguishers that they carry in their cars. They do/will/have made entry into fires attempting rescue and/or knockdown. They don't carry PPE and this severely limits their entry ability. It works well.

    Only "negative" comment is from some FD members that get upset the PD is knocking the fire down before FD arrives. Ya, that's a valid arguement.

    If they have no PPE and are trying to make entry and knock down a fire with an extinguisher, you better hope these guys have a lot of self-control and can recognize some fire conditions. If not, you could be heading towards a very bad incident.

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