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    Default Letter- To all my valued Employees

    To All My Valued Employees,

    There have been some rumblings around the office about the future of this company, and more specifically, your job. As you know, the economy has changed for the worse and presents many challenges. However, the good news is this: The economy doesn't pose a threat to your job. What does threaten your job however, is the changing political landscape in this country.
    However, let me tell you some little tidbits of fact which might help you decide what is in your best interests.

    First, while it is easy to spew rhetoric that casts employers against employees, you have to understand that for every business owner there is a back story. This back story is often neglected and overshadowed by what you see and hear. Sure, you see me park my Mercedes outside. You've seen my big home at last years Christmas party. I'm sure; all these flashy icons of luxury conjure up some idealized thoughts about my life.

    However, what you don't see is the back story.

    I started this company 28 years ago. At that time, I lived in a 300 square foot studio apartment for 3 years. My entire living apartment was converted into an office so I could put forth 100% effort into building a company, which by the way, would eventually employ you.

    My diet consisted of Ramen Pride noodles because every dollar I spent went back into this company. I drove a rusty Toyota Corolla with a defective transmission. I didn't have time to date. Often times, I stayed home on weekends, while my friends went out drinking and partying. In fact, I was married to my business -- hard work, discipline, and sacrifice.

    Meanwhile, my friends got jobs. They worked 40 hours a week and made a modest $50K a year and spent every dime they earned. They drove flashy cars and lived in expensive homes and wore fancy designer clothes. Instead of hitting the Nordstrom's for the latest hot fashion item, I was trolling through the Goodwill store extracting any clothing item that didn't look like it was birthed in the 70's. My friends refinanced their mortgages and lived a life of luxury. I, however, did not. I put my time, my money, and my life into a business with a vision that eventually, some day, I too, will be able to afford these luxuries my friends supposedly had.

    So, while you physically arrive at the office at 9am, mentally check in at about noon, and then leave at 5pm, I don't. There is no "off" button for me. When you leave the office, you are done and you have a weekend all to yourself. I unfortunately do not have the freedom. I eat, and breathe this company every minute of the day. There is no rest. There is no weekend. There is no happy hour. Every day this business is attached to my hip like a 1 year old special-needs child. You, of course, only see the fruits of that garden -- the nice house, the Mercedes, the vacations... You never realize the back story and the sacrifices I've made.

    Now, the economy is falling apart and I, the guy that made all the right decisions and saved his money, have to bail-out all the people who didn't. The people that overspent their paychecks suddenly feel entitled to the same luxuries that I earned and sacrificed a decade of my life for.

    Yes, business ownership has is benefits but the price I've paid is steep and not without wounds.

    Unfortunately, the cost of running this business, and employing you, is starting to eclipse the threshold of marginal benefit and let me tell you why:

    I am being taxed to death and the government thinks I don't pay enough. I have state taxes. Federal taxes. Property taxes. Sales and use taxes. Payroll taxes. Workers compensation taxes. Unemployment taxes. Taxes on taxes. I have to hire a tax man to manage all these taxes and then guess what? I have to pay taxes for employing him. Government mandates and regulations and all the accounting that goes with it, now occupy most of my time. On Oct 15th, I wrote a check to the US Treasury for $288,000 for quarterly taxes. You know what my "stimulus" check was? Zero. Nada. Zilch.

    The question I have is this: Who is stimulating the economy? Me, the guy who has provided 14 people good paying jobs and serves over 2,200,000 people per year with a flourishing business? Or, the single mother sitting at home pregnant with her fourth child waiting for her next welfare check? Obviously, government feels the latter is the economic stimulus of this country.

    The fact is, if I deducted (Read: Stole) 50% of your paycheck you'd quit and you wouldn't work here. I mean, why should you? That's nuts. Who wants to get rewarded only 50% of their hard work? Well, I agree which is why your job is in jeopardy.

    Here is what many of you don't understand ... to stimulate the economy you need to stimulate what runs the economy. Had suddenly government mandated to me that I didn't need to pay taxes, guess what? Instead of depositing that $288,000 into the Washington black-hole, I would have spent it, hired more employees, and generated substantial economic growth. My employees would have enjoyed the wealth of that tax cut in the form of promotions and better salaries. But you can forget it now.

    When you have a comatose man on the verge of death, you don't defibrillate and shock his thumb thinking that will bring him back to life, do you? Or, do you defibrillate his heart? Business is at the heart of America and always has been. To restart it, you must stimulate it, not kill it. Suddenly, the power brokers in Washington believe the poor of America are the essential drivers of the American economic engine. Nothing could be further from the truth and this is the type of change you can keep.

    So where am I going with all this?

    It's quite simple.

    If any new taxes are levied on me, or my company, my reaction will be swift and simple. I fire you. I fire your co-workers. You can then plead with the government to pay for your mortgage, your SUV, and your child's future. Frankly, it isn't my problem any more.

    Then, I will close this company down, move to another country, and retire. You see, I'm done. I'm done with a country that penalizes the productive and gives to the unproductive. My motivation to work and to provide jobs will be destroyed, and with it, will be my citizenship.

    If you lose your job, it won't be at the hands of the economy; it will be at the hands of a political hurricane that swept through this country, steamrolled the constitution, and will have changed its landscape forever. If that happens, you can find me sitting on a beach, retired, and with no employees to worry about....

    Signed,
    Your boss

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Then, I will close this company down, move to another country, and retire. You see, I'm done. I'm done with a country that penalizes the productive and gives to the unproductive. My motivation to work and to provide jobs will be destroyed, and with it, will be my citizenship.
    Just one problem. The boss doesn't mention which country he intends to move to where the taxes are lower and the quality of life is better than the US.

    I was watching the HBO special called Feeling Wronged where all these hayseeds are remarking about how Obama will turn the US into a socialist country (even though none of them could define socialism). Several of them stated that if Obama is elected President they would move to Canada. I guess there is an idiotic belief amongst Obama haters that Canada isn't already a socialist country where there are no or lesser taxes.

    I've been fortunate to travel to every continent (save Antarctica) and I can assure the idiot writers of this diatribe have no idea what they're talking about when it comes foreign countries, taxation, and quality of life in other nations. There are nations in the world where the level of taxation is much lower. I can assure all those who read this none of you would want to live in any of them.

    Since it is posted by Scareboy, he only reinforces his ignorance of the subject and proves once again why he went BK over a credit card balance forcing responsible people to pick up the slack for his living beyond his means. Much like those being criticized by the imaginary author of this nonsense.
    Last edited by scfire86; 02-22-2009 at 06:48 AM.
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    Just a couple of comments on these postings. Scarecrow is completely correct that companies are moving out of the US to cheaper areas. For the most part, land costs, labor costs, material costs, and environmental regulations are more of a driving force than simply taxes. Look at the auto industry, electronics, textiles, steel industries. The US is still by far the world leader in things like aerospace and aeronautics, IT technology.
    The US overall is about 25% cheaper in taxes than Canada although that does vary depending on provinces vs states. Canada would be classified as at least a semi socialist country.On the other hand, there are several countries that do enjoy a standard of living as good and in some cases better than the US. The kicker is that is only true if you have money.

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    It's even more basic. A person works and sacrifices to get ahead. As soon as they start making a little money to get a nice car and a nice home some believe they are entitled to the riches he has earned. I went to school to get an education and hopefully a better way of life. I scrimped, I ate hot dogs and macaroni and cheese from the box. I did this while working. I lived in a tiny 1 story house of 400 sq ft. I would shop in the grocery store and see the low life welfare bums eating steaks and lobsters and my tax dollar. After 6 years of full time and part time studies I finally got a degree, and a $40,000 debt that allowed me to get that education. I finally got a decent job paying around $50,000. After taxes and paying the incurred debt, I was no further ahead.

    It sickens me to hear we need to tax the rich. A lot of those people weren't always rich, they worked to become rich and now some knucklehead who wants all kinds of social programs thinks he is automatically entitled to those riches. Personally, I take the libertarian view on this. A simple flat tax that taxes everyone at 15%. No deductions, no credits, no EIC, no nothing. That my friend would be truly fair. But then again, who wants fair?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    It sickens me to hear we need to tax the rich. A lot of those people weren't always rich, they worked to become rich and now some knucklehead who wants all kinds of social programs thinks he is automatically entitled to those riches. Personally, I take the libertarian view on this. A simple flat tax that taxes everyone at 15%. No deductions, no credits, no EIC, no nothing. That my friend would be truly fair. But then again, who wants fair?
    Given the transfer of wealth upward and the narrowing of the middle and lower classes that has occurred in the 25 years the wealthly amongst us have done quite well. You'd like to believe that all wealthy folks have worked hard to get to their station in life doing the right thing along the way. You must not reading current events on the number of bank executives who have run their companies into the ground while taking billions of dollars (cumulatively) out the door leaving their employees with nothing.

    You moan about how you got a degree that puts you no further ahead than you were before. Whose fault is that? You should've studied a field whose compensation was more lucrative.

    I don't consider myself and my wife to be rich or wealthy. But we are certainly comfortable at this stage of our lives. We were certainly fortunate along the way. Neither of us has had any health issues (knock on wood considering how many bankruptcies are caused by medical bills). Both of our children didn't have any health or behavior issues (drug abuse, etc). Neither of us is consumption oriented where we are constantly wanting the newest and best thing all the time. We took on constructive debt like mortgages and education loans for the kids (which they are paying off). We never charged more on credit cards than we could pay off in two months (unlike some people here). One thing we both recognize that while the taxation level isn't the best or fairest it is better here than anywhere else and the opportunities afforded the children of blue collar parents (us) don't exist anywhere in the world.

    So as I asked in the earlier post. What nation has a lower rate of taxation with a better quality of life? Most importantly, that nation also needs as lax an immigration policy that exists here. Please let me know, I'll move there in a heartbeat.

    The flat tax idea has been around for some time. It is very popular in conservative circles yet there was a six year opportunity to enact that idea and they didn't. You might want to look who is opposing that plan. The answer would surprise you.
    Last edited by scfire86; 02-22-2009 at 12:14 PM.
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    The rich include the people who are running this country. And they are doing their best to assure the rich get richer while the masses are kept poor. There isn't much difference between the welfare folks and the people making $50,000 a year.

    FYI, I obtained a BS degree in Electrical Engineering. So it is lucrative, until the government picks your pocket to pay for the multitude of social programs. It's interesting to see the states with the biggest social programs are also the ones with the biggest budget problems right now.

    Myself, I was doing OK until my first marriage broke up. I took on the responsibility of raising my son alone as well as all the debt we had acquired. It was a situation where I just wanted it over with. That is what I get for being a nice guy. I never was able to recover from that, then the Credit Card companies (aka Loan Sharks) got their teeth into me. My next mistake was going to an attorney for help, they only think of one thing. There were alternatives but they didn't tell me that. It just sickens me to make $60,000 a year and to see 30% of gone to the government. And these alleged poor people got all the breaks. It just isn't right.

    My basic belief is that the government does not produce anything, and hence is not productive. I find it funny that there are people complaining about civil liberties and big brother watching, yet have no problem with more social programs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    My basic belief is that the government does not produce anything, and hence is not productive. I find it funny that there are people complaining about civil liberties and big brother watching, yet have no problem with more social programs.
    Really? Does that include the men and women fighting overseas? How about the police officers that respond to crime? Does the water that comes out of your faucet just happen? How about the roads you drive on to get to and from your job everyday? I could go on and on, but you wouldn't get it so there is no point.

    If you're an EE only making $50K a year, you may want to consider moving to a locale where EE's are more highly valued. Either that or (which is more likely) your current employer is paying you what he believes you're worth.

    Your continued excuses for living beyond your means are just that....excuses for being irresponsible and showing poor judgement.

    Lastly, you didn't answer my question about a country where the quality of life is better and taxes lower. Please don't give an idiot response like you did last time and say Kuwait. FYI, many of those middle east nations still have debtors prisons. Had you defaulted on your credit cards in those places you'd still be in jail with the debt clock ticking upwards.

    You have the choice of not paying your taxes and enjoying the benefits offered by living in this country. You are also free to experience the consequences of those actions. Ain't freedom grand?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Really? Does that include the men and women fighting overseas? How about the police officers that respond to crime? Does the water that comes out of your faucet just happen? How about the roads you drive on to get to and from your job everyday? I could go on and on, but you wouldn't get it so there is no point.

    If you're an EE only making $50K a year, you may want to consider moving to a locale where EE's are more highly valued. Either that or (which is more likely) your current employer is paying you what he believes you're worth.

    Your continued excuses for living beyond your means are just that....excuses for being irresponsible and showing poor judgement.

    Lastly, you didn't answer my question about a country where the quality of life is better and taxes lower. Please don't give an idiot response like you did last time and say Kuwait. FYI, many of those middle east nations still have debtors prisons. Had you defaulted on your credit cards in those places you'd still be in jail with the debt clock ticking upwards.

    You have the choice of not paying your taxes and enjoying the benefits offered by living in this country. You are also free to experience the consequences of those actions. Ain't freedom grand?
    You won't answer this, but...

    Do you pay enough taxes? Or should you pay more? Or should you pay less? Not based on the law, but based on what you think your blessings are worth.

    And before you turn the question around and accuse me of not answering the question, it ain't about me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    You won't answer this, but...

    Do you pay enough taxes? Or should you pay more? Or should you pay less? Not based on the law, but based on what you think your blessings are worth.
    I pay the taxes I'm obligated to pay under the law. I don't pad my deductions. In fact I usually donate a five figure sum to various charitable causes during most years and don't claim that deduction. I believe charitable deductions shouldn't be deductible. Same with my union dues. Did'nt believe they should be deductible and I never did. I don't know what is a proper amount. I just know that taxes (and government) are necessary for the quality of life we enjoy in this nation. I do believe that to be true.

    Conservatives have made tax cuts their mantra. Times are bad, cut taxes. Times are good, cut taxes. There is never a good time to raise taxes. Consequently the services demanded by people either go unfunded or paid for by borrowed dollars. We are now at a point where the previous president gave away a budget surplus and lowered taxes about $1.4T and then decided to fund two military actions. There was never a call for the American people to sacrifice. Consequently the current President needs to borrow almost another trillion dollars to get the economy functioning in helping getting people back to work.

    IMO, taxes should be high enough to pay the Federal budget. If that means raising them, so be it. Then there would be serious discussion about the necessity of programs and their cost. Until then it is just hot air designed for electeds to get votes. I believe Obama is an aberration in stating he was going to raise taxes (and I'm in that bracket) and still got elected.

    BTW, when I was telling Scareboy about my life and how my wife and I got here, I didn't mention we are both blessed with good health, but so are our children. Our children never caused us any grief (drugs or legal problems), nor did they require special needs. Kudos to you as a parent of a special needs child. I am told there are expenses that are tax deductible and I support those deductions. Raising normal children was difficult, I can't even imagine the energy and time required for a special needs child.

    Maybe, you'll answer my question. What country has lower taxes and a better quality of life with as lax an immigration policy? I'll move if you can name it.
    Last edited by scfire86; 02-23-2009 at 12:07 AM.
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    I doubt that you would be able to find a country as you describe, particularly in regards to immigration. I can think of several where your quality of life would probably be better overall than the US, but taxation would be higher. Biggest reason for this would be govt health care. I know in Canada healthcare is the biggest single budget item followed by Indian affairs and then education. I think the US is one of the very few, if not the only, first world countries without universal health care. If you factor in what American families or individuals pay for comparable health coverage from private insurers, total outlay may be somewhere fairly close to our taxation in Alberta.
    The biggest drawback we haveis that we cannot buy private insurance for improved medical care. Quite a number of Canadians choose to go south for quicker medical treatment.

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    That is what I get for being a nice guy. I never was able to recover from that, then the Credit Card companies (aka Loan Sharks) got their teeth into me. My next mistake was going to an attorney for help, they only think of one thing.
    Screw you, loser. Those credit card company CEO's and lawyers all started their companies in their basements and drove rusty Toyotas for years, eating Ramon noodles the entire time. They deserve everything they ever bilked out of anyone, including you. Anything to make a buck, right?
    Quit bitching and eat more hot dogs and macaroni.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I pay the taxes I'm obligated to pay under the law. I don't pad my deductions. In fact I usually donate a five figure sum to various charitable causes during most years and don't claim that deduction. I believe charitable deductions shouldn't be deductible. Same with my union dues. Did'nt believe they should be deductible and I never did. I don't know what is a proper amount. I just know that taxes (and government) are necessary for the quality of life we enjoy in this nation. I do believe that to be true.

    Conservatives have made tax cuts their mantra. Times are bad, cut taxes. Times are good, cut taxes. There is never a good time to raise taxes. Consequently the services demanded by people either go unfunded or paid for by borrowed dollars. We are now at a point where the previous president gave away a budget surplus and lowered taxes about $1.4T and then decided to fund two military actions. There was never a call for the American people to sacrifice. Consequently the current President needs to borrow almost another trillion dollars to get the economy functioning in helping getting people back to work.

    IMO, taxes should be high enough to pay the Federal budget. If that means raising them, so be it. Then there would be serious discussion about the necessity of programs and their cost. Until then it is just hot air designed for electeds to get votes. I believe Obama is an aberration in stating he was going to raise taxes (and I'm in that bracket) and still got elected.

    BTW, when I was telling Scareboy about my life and how my wife and I got here, I didn't mention we are both blessed with good health, but so are our children. Our children never caused us any grief (drugs or legal problems), nor did they require special needs. Kudos to you as a parent of a special needs child. I am told there are expenses that are tax deductible and I support those deductions. Raising normal children was difficult, I can't even imagine the energy and time required for a special needs child.

    Maybe, you'll answer my question. What country has lower taxes and a better quality of life with as lax an immigration policy? I'll move if you can name it.
    Of course the answer is nowhere. Although I'm not sure what the immigration policy has to do with it.

    Reading your posts has opened my eyes a little. We are more alike than either of us would care to admit. I share the same blessings as you, with the addition of being blessed because I married up. I do not consider my special needs son anything other than a blessing (and I know you didn't mean it that way). Aside from his hearing impairment and his developmental delays, he is as normal (I hate that word, but there isn't a better one) as the other three and just as big a joy.

    The tax deductions are not available for everyone. If a person makes a good salary (like I do) and has good healthcare insurance (like I do), you generally do not have huge expenses. I forget the rule, but the expenses have to total like 2% of your gross income and then you can take a deduction for a percentage of that. I never get that deduction. I also never bitch about it, because that is another blessing in my life. However, for a person with catastrophic illness issues, those deductions can be very, very helpful.

    Thanks for the honest answer.

    Another blessing in my life is a beautiful house I can afford and a mortgage that is paid on time every month. I have $0 in revolving credit card debt.

    The current figures I heard yesterday are that 92% of US home mortgages are paid up to date. That leaves 8%. Take away from that the mortgages defaulted on by house "flippers" and people who are in houses they couldn't afford anyway, and I think you have a very small percentage of responsible people who are actually facing a mortgage crisis.

    There are TV and radio commercials talking about the evil credit card cos. Unless there was a new policy where the credit card cos. are sending out people with guns to force you to buy things on credit, in 99% of the cases, it's the cardholders own damn fault that they are in over their head. No sympathy here.

    My point is that taxes are certainly a necessary part of the civic responsibility of a US citizen. These taxes go for the operation of the US government and to support programs for those less fortunate. Where I and alot of people have a problem is using those tax dollars to support irresponsibility. That is where the groundswell is going to come from. I have talked to people who feel exactly as I do who are conservative and who are liberal and who are somewhere in between.

    I am a firm supporter of a flat tax. Two things are of interest to me. First, the first high profile person who really put this concept out there is one of the richest men in the world. A learned economist, Steve Forbes would also be greatly affected by it. But as a conservative, he recognizes that this may be a more equitable system, and he is probably right.

    Secondly, I know exactly who opposes the flat tax. A lot of conservatives.

    It is probably a moot point, though. Does anyone really believe that our Congress could develop a simple (key word) flat tax system that would benefit most Americans, but that did not contain pages and pages of exceptions and loopholes that would turn the simple into the complex? I don't.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Of course the answer is nowhere. Although I'm not sure what the immigration policy has to do with it.
    There are nations with lower taxes and a higher quality of life. Several middle east nations. I haven't looked lately, but I believe Switzerland might fall into that catetory. Try emigrating to any of them and becoming a citizen. Vitually impossible. They have typically closed societies. Even if the middle east nations had an open immigration policy I still wouldn't want to live there. Inside their borders those people are still in the middle ages. Outside is a different matter. I responded to several dozen calls for middle eastern men who were tourists engaging in what they would consider decadent behavior. Drinking alcohol and frequenting strip clubs. I don't really care other than knowing that type of behavior is forbidden in muslim nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Reading your posts has opened my eyes a little. We are more alike than either of us would care to admit. I share the same blessings as you, with the addition of being blessed because I married up.
    Same here. We didn't start out that way. When I met my wife she was working her way through college by literally saying "would you like fries with that order." I supported the family and bought our first house. The rest is history. Her career and compensation far outpaces mine at this point in time. We bought several rentals along the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I do not consider my special needs son anything other than a blessing (and I know you didn't mean it that way). Aside from his hearing impairment and his developmental delays, he is as normal (I hate that word, but there isn't a better one) as the other three and just as big a joy.

    The tax deductions are not available for everyone. If a person makes a good salary (like I do) and has good healthcare insurance (like I do), you generally do not have huge expenses. I forget the rule, but the expenses have to total like 2% of your gross income and then you can take a deduction for a percentage of that. I never get that deduction. I also never bitch about it, because that is another blessing in my life. However, for a person with catastrophic illness issues, those deductions can be very, very helpful.
    Agreed on all counts.


    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    There are TV and radio commercials talking about the evil credit card cos. Unless there was a new policy where the credit card cos. are sending out people with guns to force you to buy things on credit, in 99% of the cases, it's the cardholders own damn fault that they are in over their head. No sympathy here.
    Unless you're Scareboy.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    My point is that taxes are certainly a necessary part of the civic responsibility of a US citizen. These taxes go for the operation of the US government and to support programs for those less fortunate. Where I and alot of people have a problem is using those tax dollars to support irresponsibility. That is where the groundswell is going to come from. I have talked to people who feel exactly as I do who are conservative and who are liberal and who are somewhere in between.
    I'll never say the system is perfect. Far from it. Everyone (on both sides) has their hands into the system trying to manipulate it to their advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I am a firm supporter of a flat tax. Two things are of interest to me. First, the first high profile person who really put this concept out there is one of the richest men in the world. A learned economist, Steve Forbes would also be greatly affected by it. But as a conservative, he recognizes that this may be a more equitable system, and he is probably right.
    My only problem with Forbes' plan was it exempted unearned income. Which is precisely where folks in his income bracket derive a lot of their income. Other than that I believed it to be a generally good idea. The idea is to be fair. He started off with a plan that already had one HUGE exemption. Coincidentally it benefitted him.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Secondly, I know exactly who opposes the flat tax. A lot of conservatives.

    It is probably a moot point, though. Does anyone really believe that our Congress could develop a simple (key word) flat tax system that would benefit most Americans, but that did not contain pages and pages of exceptions and loopholes that would turn the simple into the complex? I don't.
    The short answer is NO. I don't. Too many attorneys and accountants would be put out of work.
    Last edited by scfire86; 02-23-2009 at 01:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    Screw you, loser. Those credit card company CEO's and lawyers all started their companies in their basements and drove rusty Toyotas for years, eating Ramon noodles the entire time. They deserve everything they ever bilked out of anyone, including you. Anything to make a buck, right?
    Quit bitching and eat more hot dogs and macaroni.
    Well done. Scareboy praises the very system he claims victimized him.

    Irony alert.
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    I'd agree with you SCfire on Switzerland, probably as well add in Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Finland. Quality of life, social safety net are extremely high there, but taxation is also extremely high. IMO, probably the best place in the world overall would be Australia. Once again taxation would be quite a bit higher than the US though. Some other possibilities, Cyprus, Lichtenstein, Ireland, ( Eire, Not Northern Ireland). Overall, the US is a great place, not perfect, but seems to have a decent balance between taxation and standard of life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    I'd agree with you SCfire on Switzerland, probably as well add in Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Finland. Quality of life, social safety net are extremely high there, but taxation is also extremely high. IMO, probably the best place in the world overall would be Australia. Once again taxation would be quite a bit higher than the US though. Some other possibilities, Cyprus, Lichtenstein, Ireland, ( Eire, Not Northern Ireland). Overall, the US is a great place, not perfect, but seems to have a decent balance between taxation and standard of life.
    BL, all the places you name may have a better quality of life. But the majority have much higher taxation. Especially the Scandinavian countries. I don't know about Cyprus or Ireland, but becoming a citizen of Switzerland is virtually impossible unless you're born there.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Maybe the guy intends to move to a country where lots of formerly American businesses moved after US taxes got so onerous that it was easier to stay solvent somewhere else.
    Companies that move because of business costs don't do so for the 45 cent an hour wages.They do so to avoid the thousands or millions of dollars a year in excess taxes that could be better used to expand the companies' own infrastructure,as in buying new taxis for a cab company, or adding another assembly line for a factory.
    One of my collateral duties when I worked for a cab company in Paducah was to take the company checks to the bank and ensure that they got into the correct accounts.This was so the boss man could pay for the cabs,vans and wheelchair buses that he'd purchased so we'd have something to drive passengers around,and he'd also pay his taxes into an account so when the tax bill came due,he'd have the money right at hand.
    If you watch "Deadliest Catch",you probably never miss the episode where the boats are coming in and Mike Rowe is breaking down how much the boat made in catches and how much each crewman got.
    That money has to last them until the next season so it wouldn't be wise of them to blow that $45K on strippers,booze,houses or cars all at once.A smart man would spread the payments out over time so he and his family could have something to eat on and have a roof over their heads,right?That way they can keep their local economy going better than expecting government checks every first and fifteenth of the month.
    Someone is going to have to pay the bills around here and it sure isn't going to be the ones getting millions of dollars because of their ability to "play pretend" or because their Grandfather scrimped and saved to start what is now a billion dollar international corporation.
    Barack Obama got into office promising to go through the budget line by line and axe things that was slowing down the economy.When does he plan to do that?All I've seen is his flying around the country and one out of the country trip to talk up his stimulus plan.Where did he come up with the time to go through the Federal budget to dream up that plan?


    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Just one problem. The boss doesn't mention which country he intends to move to where the taxes are lower and the quality of life is better than the US.

    I was watching the HBO special called Feeling Wronged where all these hayseeds are remarking about how Obama will turn the US into a socialist country (even though none of them could define socialism). Several of them stated that if Obama is elected President they would move to Canada. I guess there is an idiotic belief amongst Obama haters that Canada isn't already a socialist country where there are no or lesser taxes.

    I've been fortunate to travel to every continent (save Antarctica) and I can assure the idiot writers of this diatribe have no idea what they're talking about when it comes foreign countries, taxation, and quality of life in other nations. There are nations in the world where the level of taxation is much lower. I can assure all those who read this none of you would want to live in any of them.

    Since it is posted by Scareboy, he only reinforces his ignorance of the subject and proves once again why he went BK over a credit card balance forcing responsible people to pick up the slack for his living beyond his means. Much like those being criticized by the imaginary author of this nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    Maybe the guy intends to move to a country where lots of formerly American businesses moved after US taxes got so onerous that it was easier to stay solvent somewhere else.
    Companies that move because of business costs don't do so for the 45 cent an hour wages.They do so to avoid the thousands or millions of dollars a year in excess taxes that could be better used to expand the companies' own infrastructure,as in buying new taxis for a cab company, or adding another assembly line for a factory.
    I would agree with you if private enterprise had shown the same restraint. That has not happened. Those executives you praise are making billions of dollars while driving their companies into the ground. One exec claimed that federal bailout funds were a necessity and then promptly gave his immediate subordinates hundreds of millions in bonuses and spent a million dollars to remodel his office.

    The original post in this thread is yet another piece of mythology. To believe that business hasn't benefitted from government largesse is naivete or stupidity. I'll let you decide which term applies to you.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Companies that move because of business costs don't do so for the 45 cent an hour wages.They do so to avoid the thousands or millions of dollars a year in excess taxes that could be better used to expand the companies' own infrastructure,as in buying new taxis for a cab company, or adding another assembly line for a factory.
    You've lost your ****ing mind. Oh, if we could only go back to the good ol' days in the United States when 12 year old girls worked themselves to death in dingy, dangerous factories behind fire doors that are chained shut for ten cents a day. Good ol' fashioned capitalism, huh? Anything for a buck, huh? American preteens too lazy to work? Hell, we'll find some Asian girls...now they know how to run a sweat shop!
    The unhinged right is embarrassing itself more every day. What a hoot! Break out the prozac, boys!

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Really? Does that include the men and women fighting overseas? How about the police officers that respond to crime? Does the water that comes out of your faucet just happen? How about the roads you drive on to get to and from your job everyday? I could go on and on, but you wouldn't get it so there is no point.

    If you're an EE only making $50K a year, you may want to consider moving to a locale where EE's are more highly valued. Either that or (which is more likely) your current employer is paying you what he believes you're worth.

    Your continued excuses for living beyond your means are just that....excuses for being irresponsible and showing poor judgement.

    Lastly, you didn't answer my question about a country where the quality of life is better and taxes lower. Please don't give an idiot response like you did last time and say Kuwait. FYI, many of those middle east nations still have debtors prisons. Had you defaulted on your credit cards in those places you'd still be in jail with the debt clock ticking upwards.

    You have the choice of not paying your taxes and enjoying the benefits offered by living in this country. You are also free to experience the consequences of those actions. Ain't freedom grand?
    Those are services, governments produce no goods. Without the production of goods there are no need for services. Conversely, one can produce goods without the need for services.

    Yes, salaries are low in this area, but so are the taxes, the cost of a home. People rarely pay over $150,000 with most going for 50k to 70k. There is no crowding here, no city BS. It's a much better lifestyle.

    Finally, we have the choice to pay taxes and accept them, we can take the liberal approach and cry for more taxes to support more social programs, or we can take the the American approach which is less taxes and less government.

    When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,...
    Since our government has become destructive to our liberty and pursuit of happiness it is time to change it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    You've lost your ****ing mind. Oh, if we could only go back to the good ol' days in the United States when 12 year old girls worked themselves to death in dingy, dangerous factories behind fire doors that are chained shut for ten cents a day. Good ol' fashioned capitalism, huh? Anything for a buck, huh? American preteens too lazy to work? Hell, we'll find some Asian girls...now they know how to run a sweat shop!
    The unhinged right is embarrassing itself more every day. What a hoot! Break out the prozac, boys!
    I think you have lost your mind. Why do you think all of the manufacturing jobs are moving off shore? I will tell you. Cheaper labor, less government interference in the terms of regulations and laws, lower taxes to name a few. Do you really think the people who buy these goods actually care where they are made and under what conditions?

    No one is advocating putting 12 year olds to work, that is a figment of your own imagination. Freud would have a blast with you. Americans need to wake up and smell the coffee here. There is a reason the jobs are going overseas, and until our government, unions, and employers see the light the exodus will continue. And anyone with half a brain can see that this exodus will also effect government workers as well. There just won't be the future dollars to support their salaries. Are you prepared to take a cut in pay along with the cut in manpower?ing

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Those are services, governments produce no goods. Without the production of goods there are no need for services. Conversely, one can produce goods without the need for services.
    Wow!! You prove once again you are master of the obvious. Government has always been a procurement and regulatory agency. Since you are so concerned about the manufacturing sector, please remind us again of your profession.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Yes, salaries are low in this area, but so are the taxes, the cost of a home. People rarely pay over $150,000 with most going for 50k to 70k. There is no crowding here, no city BS. It's a much better lifestyle.
    According to you. I'm not at the point where I want to sit around all day and ogle sheep mating.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Finally, we have the choice to pay taxes and accept them, we can take the liberal approach and cry for more taxes to support more social programs, or we can take the the American approach which is less taxes and less government.
    More yawns. Your quote is hysterical in that you quote the Declaration of Independence. Here's a newsflash numbnuts. We're not governed by the D of I. We're governed by the Constitution. Even the Founding Fathers who wrote the dammed thing didn't govern according to the D of I. Unless you can show me where Jefferson (we'll agree he was a Founding Father) was authorized to fund the Louisiana Purchase and the Lewis & Clark Expedition in either document.

    As I think about it, a lot of the disconnect amongst many wackjob conservatives (such as yourself) comes from which document you regard as the controlling American charter - the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.

    The former is our freakin' flag flying - a bold statement of philosophical priciples and (to us)eternal verities that control, or ought to control, the governance of men and nations. It’s Lockean philosphy distilled and applied in principle to the colonial Gordian knot, and its intellectual clarity and simplicity cuts that to shreds.

    It is, however, no nuts and bolts model for how to conduct that task, of governance of a free people. The Founders tried a form of national government devoted to the ideas of consent of the governed to the nth degree, under the Articles of Confederation - and it bombed. Similarly, one reason the Confederacy lost the Civil War was the weakness of the central government that it established, in deference to its states’ rights consent of the governed philosophy - yielding a government so unable to function effectively that an exasperated Jefferson Davis remarked, “If the Confederacy fails, there should be written on its tombstone, ‘Died of a Theory’”.

    So that sort of model has been tried, more than once, and it’s failed

    The Founders were more clever (or at least more flexible in the connection between their philosophic belief and their addressing of reality). They also recognized as few others, in that day or since have that ideas are powerful things - so powerful that any one, allowed untrammeled authority, inevitably becomes tyrannical. Majority rule, untempered, becomes the whim of the mob. The wholesale adoption of a “consent of the governed” philosophy results in a government with power so atomized that it becomes ineffectual, and so not just unable to protect liberty but inimical to it. No concept, however worthy in the abstract, could or should be given unlimited sway. (Ideo)Logical conclusions, and human nature, were never to be entirely trusted.

    And so the Constitution was born - the most exquisite counterbalancing of rights and responsibilities, powers and obligations, ceded authority and retained autonomy, that has ever been crafted. It’s a work of collective genius, and it very deliberately lacks much -in the way of high-flown rhetoric like that which Jefferson was able to include in the Declaration. It’s worth noting that Jefferson’s editor on the Declaration, Franklin, was present at the Constitutional Convention - if anyone had authorty to call the developing document a betrayal of the older manifesto, it was him. Yet at the Convention’s end, he deemed the sunburst pattern on the back of Washington’s chair to be a rising, not a setting, sun.

    Conservative rhetoric like “God-given rights” line is thus acutely American and right - and, by itself, a lousy guide for running a country. Like most ideologues, conservatives love the abstractions of the Declaration, and prefer to ignore the mundane details of the Constitution (is there anything duller than enumerated powers? Contrast that to self evident truths and see which gets your heart stirring).

    Creating America required the articulation of an idea of human entitlement and freedom unprecedented in human history. Turning that ideal into reality required that most dreaded word - compromise. And a necessary surrender of a portion of individual philosophical sovereignity, in order to create a lasting and manageable social compact. Your instinct is to regard any such surrender as a betrayal of the ideals of the Declaration. I regard it as their fulfillment.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Since our government has become destructive to our liberty and pursuit of happiness it is time to change it.
    See above post. I always love the smaller government argument by wackjobs. Smaller government is not necessarily better government. If that were the case I could make the argument that our military should have never progressed past the Continental Army stage.

    Please show me where your liberty has been infringed. And while you're a bitter decrepit loser, I'm as happy as I've ever been in my life.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    You've lost your ****ing mind. Oh, if we could only go back to the good ol' days in the United States when 12 year old girls worked themselves to death in dingy, dangerous factories behind fire doors that are chained shut for ten cents a day. Good ol' fashioned capitalism, huh? Anything for a buck, huh? American preteens too lazy to work? Hell, we'll find some Asian girls...now they know how to run a sweat shop!
    The unhinged right is embarrassing itself more every day. What a hoot! Break out the prozac, boys!
    Remind me to cancel my hunting trip next bear season to your area.There's gotta be something in the water that I don't want to ingest.

    Where did I EVER say that they left for the cheap labor and fewer restrictions on how you you had to be to risk life and limb running heavy cutting machinery?
    I said it was because of taxes in THIS country that corporations go to other countries to set up headquarters.
    If any of my sales tax dollars that I paid before I moved to Kentucky in 98 went to your education,I want my money back.You obviously skipped too much school that I paid for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Conservative rhetoric like “God-given rights” line is thus acutely American and right - and, by itself, a lousy guide for running a country.

    Tell that to ACORN,Obama's favorite bunch of community activists who are planning to protest evictions of folks who haven't been paying their mortgages for that reason,itself.
    They claim that the people who got into houses that they couldn't afford to keep the payments up on have a "God given Right" to stay there even if they are in arrears.
    At least I understand why there's no bailout for those who pay their bills and don't default on mortgages.We don't need the help if we stay within our means and don't buy extras that don't do anything but entertain us and/or impress the neighbors.
    I don't have too many toys in my yard but that yard is paid for.All I owe beyond utilities is the tax bill to fund city services.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    Tell that to ACORN,Obama's favorite bunch of community activists who are planning to protest evictions of folks who haven't been paying their mortgages for that reason,itself.
    They claim that the people who got into houses that they couldn't afford to keep the payments up on have a "God given Right" to stay there even if they are in arrears.
    And I give them just as much credibility as I do the numbnuts wannabes who use the same argument like Scareboy.

    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    At least I understand why there's no bailout for those who pay their bills and don't default on mortgages.We don't need the help if we stay within our means and don't buy extras that don't do anything but entertain us and/or impress the neighbors.
    The strings attached to those requesting mortgage assistance is more than you would like.

    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    I don't have too many toys in my yard but that yard is paid for.All I owe beyond utilities is the tax bill to fund city services.
    Good for you. Remind me to send you a prize.
    Last edited by scfire86; 02-24-2009 at 12:14 PM.
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