Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 29
  1. #1
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    Spring, Tx.
    Posts
    40

    Default NIOSH Recommendation

    Didn't see a thread for this anywhere, although I'm sure I missed it, but has anyone read this new NIOSH recommendation. It is currently in draft.

    http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/review/publ...Structures.pdf


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,818

    Default

    That's great, they are calling for no offensive interior attacks on any unoccupied structure and further considering any activity inside the collapse zone and offensive tactic. They also do not state who determines the building is unoccupied? It looks like this thing is in the "public comment" period right now, maybe some people should take notice and fire off some comments.

  3. #3
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,672

    Default

    Determine whether the building is unoccupied.

    That is from page 12 of the 16 page document. Seems pretty clear to me that the FD is responsible for determining if it's occupied/unoccupied.

    Honestly, nothing in this document seems new to me.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber Dickey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    5,111

    Default

    Yeah, nothing really new here either.

    We always will determine if building is occupied and always will try to make an interior attack if it is safe to do so. Just because the building is NOT occupied does not mean we will surround and drown.

    Seems like the trend is to be gunshy from the Safety Sallys
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

    IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
    http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,818

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Determine whether the building is unoccupied.

    That is from page 12 of the 16 page document. Seems pretty clear to me that the FD is responsible for determining if it's occupied/unoccupied.

    Honestly, nothing in this document seems new to me.
    If they used the term "vacant" I'd be a little less concerned, but a room and contents fire where the occupants have been verified to be out by the FD? Is that now a defensive op in their view?

    And the real question, is what do they consider acceptable as the tactic the FD uses to determine whether or not the building is occupied? They could follow the LAfireEdumacator theory and unless no one tells them someone's inside determine it's unoccupied.

    Sorry, maybe I'm too suspicious of the federal acronym agencies, but I've seen too much BS in the last few years.

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    19

    Default

    I am looking at it from a different perspective....

    What about lightwieght/truss style contruction methods??
    Like wood lam I beams, floor and ceiling trusses etc.

    Absent signs of being occupied (based on education and experience) do you enter into an environment with advanced/obvious fire conditions that may fall down on and around you sooner, based on its construction methods???

    This idea will lead to other discussions about codes, inspections, residential sprinklers etc. but it should be discussed more with the changes in how things are built today.

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,562

    Default

    Another thread where I'm brought up before I even post.

    That makes me feel so important. Or is that impotent?

    Well it's one of the two.

    I guess I don' think of it as being gunshy. I think of it as limiting the exposure of your firefighters to unnecessary risk,especially when your district has no history of occupancy on these types of structures.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 03-01-2009 at 06:45 PM.

  8. #8
    Forum Member ActionGoose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    New York (RIGHT COAST)
    Posts
    185

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I guess I don' think of it as being gunshy. I think of it as limiting the exposure of your firefighters to unnecessary risk,especially when your district has no history of occupancy on these types of structures.
    Just because there isn't a name on the mailbox, doesn't mean there isn't someone living there.

    And if for some INCREDIBLY RIDICULOUS reason NIOSH takes "unoccupied" mean "owners are standing outside" then we may as well quit our jobs and become hot tar roofers or something. "Sorry ma'am, our guidelines say that once you and your family are in the driveway, we watch your toaster oven, kitchen, and house immolate."

  9. #9
    Forum Member MoosemanKBB527's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Middlesex NY
    Posts
    187

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Determine whether the building is unoccupied.

    That is from page 12 of the 16 page document. Seems pretty clear to me that the FD is responsible for determining if it's occupied/unoccupied.

    Honestly, nothing in this document seems new to me.

    would this include and interior search to make sure there are no homeless living in there
    ~Big O~

    Tankers have wheels and carry water, Tenders are breaded and served with BBQ sauce

    (if you don't believe me Google it)

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    Spring, Tx.
    Posts
    40

    Default

    I guess if NIOSH gets this standard passed, we won't have to worry about staffing levels on our apparatus anymore. All someone has to say is "Everyone is out" or "Nobody lives their", and we get to stand in the front yard and watch it burn to the ground. Meanwhile, insurance rates are going to sky rocket, and just wait for the lawsuits to start flyin' after we find a crispy critter inside, after someone said "Everyone is out" or "Noboby lives their".

    It's going to get ugly real quick, when a small kitchen fire that could have been extinguished with an extinguisher, turns into a structure on the ground, all because we as the fire department couldn't go in because the home owner told you everyone was out of the building.

  11. #11
    Forum Member MoosemanKBB527's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Middlesex NY
    Posts
    187

    Default

    what happens the first time were told no one is in the house and then after it burns to the ground we find out that there was someone in there and now it our asses on the line because NIOSH wont take responsibility for it
    ~Big O~

    Tankers have wheels and carry water, Tenders are breaded and served with BBQ sauce

    (if you don't believe me Google it)

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber BULL321's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Western, NC
    Posts
    3,420

    Default

    Now the Safety Wussies and Yard Breathers will have a "real" excuse for just standing out in the front yard!

    Stay Safe
    Bull
    Stay Safe
    Bull


    “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
    - Capt. Marc Cox CFD

    Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
    -WINSTON CHURCHILL

  13. #13
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,672

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Determine whether the building is unoccupied.

    That is from page 12 of the 16 page document. Seems pretty clear to me that the FD is responsible for determining if it's occupied/unoccupied.

    Honestly, nothing in this document seems new to me.
    I'm quoting myself. I really don't see why any of you are talking about standing outside and not determining if the building is occupied?

    Is it normal for you to assume it's unoccupied? Do your job.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    32

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by ActionGoose View Post
    Just because there isn't a name on the mailbox, doesn't mean there isn't someone living there.

    And if for some INCREDIBLY RIDICULOUS reason NIOSH takes "unoccupied" mean "owners are standing outside" then we may as well quit our jobs and become hot tar roofers or something. "Sorry ma'am, our guidelines say that once you and your family are in the driveway, we watch your toaster oven, kitchen, and house immolate."

    Would you risk your life for someone's toaster oven, kitchen, or house?

    This mentality is what gets FFs killed.

    Just my $.02.

    Stay safe.

    IM22

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber Edward Hartin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Gresham Oregon
    Posts
    97

    Default Feedback

    NIOSH is asking for feedback on this document. If you feel that the recommendations are off track, the best way to have an impact is to submit comments to the NIOSH docket. Visit the NIOSH Firefighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention program web site, have a look at the draft document, and submit your recommendations.

    While not all of us agree with the recommendations made in NIOSH reports and other documents, the investigations provide valuable information on line-of-duty death incidents. NIOSH is taking positive steps to improve this program based on input received from the fire service. Be a part of this by providing your feedback on this document.

    Remember that the price of criticism is providing constructive alternatives!
    Ed Hartin, MS, EFO, MIFireE

  16. #16
    Forum Member MoosemanKBB527's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Middlesex NY
    Posts
    187

    Default

    do you have a link to this website .. i looked and couldnt find one
    ~Big O~

    Tankers have wheels and carry water, Tenders are breaded and served with BBQ sauce

    (if you don't believe me Google it)

  17. #17
    Forum Member ActionGoose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    New York (RIGHT COAST)
    Posts
    185

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IronsMan22 View Post
    Would you risk your life for someone's toaster oven, kitchen, or house?

    This mentality is what gets FFs killed.

    Just my $.02.

    Stay safe.

    IM22
    I will certainly take a calculated risk to save someone's property. I am expected to fight fire.

  18. #18
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,576

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IronsMan22 View Post
    Would you risk your life for someone's toaster oven, kitchen, or house?

    This mentality is what gets FFs killed.

    Just my $.02.

    Stay safe.

    IM22
    Youre kidding me right? You pull up to a house.....homeowner says everyone is out...and its a small kitchen fire, easily extinguished with 1 1 3/4" hoseline operating for less than a couple minutes. You dont go in?
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  19. #19
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,576

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    I'm quoting myself. I really don't see why any of you are talking about standing outside and not determining if the building is occupied?

    Is it normal for you to assume it's unoccupied? Do your job.
    Page 3, bottom left....states no interior attacks with unnocupied or unsafe structures. So based on previous NIOSH recommendations, we should search the house while dragging a hoseline around with us (because we cant search without a hoseline), once we determine no one is inside, we take that hoseline with us and leave, extinguish the fire once its through the roof?
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,818

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Page 3, bottom left....states no interior attacks with unnocupied or unsafe structures. So based on previous NIOSH recommendations, we should search the house while dragging a hoseline around with us (because we cant search without a hoseline), once we determine no one is inside, we take that hoseline with us and leave, extinguish the fire once its through the roof?
    Exactly. We can sit here and B*tch about NIOSH recommendations and assume what they mean or don't mean, or we could send the same complaints to them while it's in public comment. You need not look further than in this forum to see that the above example could easily be the final result of their findings if no one lets them know that we need to go inside to assure the building is unoccupied. No one need read too much into that statement, as as always all operations must be based on sound tactics, size-up and command and control of adequate resources.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. E-One wins… What’s your recommendation?
    By SCLCBS20 in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 04-09-2008, 10:55 PM
  2. Letter of recommendation
    By Hawg4248 in forum Hiring & Employment Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-06-2007, 11:09 AM
  3. Letter's of Recommendation....?
    By MoparFyrMan1 in forum Hiring & Employment Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-26-2005, 01:10 AM
  4. Letters of Recommendation
    By CaptBob in forum Hiring & Employment Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-27-2004, 11:58 AM
  5. nozzle recommendation
    By tedllly in forum Wildland Firefighting
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 05-03-2002, 11:52 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts