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  1. #1

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    Default Vindicator nozzles.....

    I am trying to get our department to switch to the Vindicator type nozzles. Seems like the higher flow, less nozzle reaction and ease of use would be a slam dunk argument but I am running in to resistance from some in the department. "You'll drain your tank to fast", "the hose will kink to easy", or "I dont like it because you it doesnt have a fog pattern" or "Why do you need that much water" is what I'm hearing. I have found good arguments against each of these, but any more help I can get would be appreciated. Anyone else have anything to add, pro or con about these nozzles?


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    Yup, going through the same thing right now. Small rural dept., officers came up in the seventies and still fight fires the same way. Have no good attack nozzles putting out more than 125/gals at 100. All adjustable so fire fighters can easily put themselves in danger either by cutting back on water to make handling easier or spray the ceiling scalding the crew. But that's the way we have always done it. Again they would rather stay and play regardless of the danger instead of putting the fire out. They can't or won't understand that it usually takes more water with a low volume nozzle than to over power the fire and put it out. Life's a challenge, don't give up.

  3. #3
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    We use Akron nozzles. 75 psi, 175 gpm. Gives you an adjustable stream and if you take the tip off, a smoothbore.

    Tell me why/how a Vindicator will be better.

    If you can do that...there is your arguement.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    We have the 75 psi Akron nozzles and a Vindicator on all our engines. I'll take the Akron every time.

    We've never got our Vindicator's to perform well on 1 3/4" lines. The flow's were lower than advertised (when used with our Ponn Conquest 1 3/4" hose). The stream reach was pitiful. You had to get your engine pressure above 200 psi on a 150' 1 3/4" line to keep the hose from kinking.

    We've probably had ours for 8 or 9 years. They may be better now. I would definitely get with their rep and see if y'all can "borrow" one to flow test and train with before purchasing. Don't just pull it straight out in a parking lot...make a corner or two with it. You may also try putting it on a 2.5".

    There isn't a good argue against it based on draining your tank or too much water damage. The faster you can apply gpm's to btu's the better the chance it will go out. Once it goes out you can stop applying the gpm's...the vindicator does have a bale...so it can be shut off.

  5. #5
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
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    We have Vindicators on our engines and work, and at the VFD. They're sure as heck not the "cure all" nozzle at all - and I say this as a fan of the Vindicator. We use them in conjunction with TFT Dual-Force nozzles, which are our primary attack nozzles.

    We primarily use the Vindicator for fires which have flames showing from the exterior on arrival. Does this mean we shoot water through the windows? No, we still make an interior attack. However, if the fire has advanced to this point, there's a greater chance of having structural involvement (not just contents) and the flows afforded by the Vindicator are advantageous.

    The Vindicators do use a lot of water, and do sometimes require high nozzle pressures to achieve big flows. There are techniques to manage the hose and nozzle, and this comes down to training.

    With all of that said, we have as many people at work that would rather use the Vindicator as a wheel chock than a firefighting appliance. Truthfully, they don't like it for many of the reasons that I put above - NP, the high use of water, etc. A lot of it comes down to personal preference.

    Incidentally, we also use Ponn Conquest 1.75" hose on our Vindicators also. Because of the lower FL, we do have to pump it a little higher. But that's okay, we know that the volume of fire is going to dictate this regardless.

    In my opinion, the nozzle provides a good compromise between the flow of a 2.5" and the mobility of a 1.75". There are still fires which require a 2.5" as the first line off, and there are fires which a standard 15/16" smooth bore or automatic nozzle is your best choice.

    Don't try to sell your department a bill of goods on the Vindicator which can't be matched. Be honest about it's capabilities and limitations, you'll keep your credibility a lot longer!

    EDIT: I forgot to add ... do a search for "Vindicator" here in the forums, you'll be surprised at the number of responses you'll get.
    Last edited by BoxAlarm187; 03-14-2009 at 04:19 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Unhappy ,Vindicator

    Not to steal the thread but there are some great threads on nozzles as has been mentioned. The real problem is how to move the depts. into ideas and tactics that have been proven to work in today's environment with double and triple btus, reduced manpower and reduced budgets. " We've always done it that way, it won't work here, etc", gets firefighters injured. Changes so often ,come after a tragedy and upon investigations. This forum is such a gold mine of good information but how to get others to act in the best interest of their firefighters remains a mystery to many of us.

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    MembersZone Subscriber ffmedcbk1's Avatar
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    In Oakland , Ca they had a fire LODD there and did a lot of research to head off making the same mistakes. Some good info here.


    http://www.firenuggets.com/x_ARDSIll.../comella27.htm

    I agree that education of the department will further the cause. This needs to be coupled with the whole overall tactical approach.

    It is rate of application at the proper time and location (good engine work)coupled with support activities (truck work) that makes a successful outcome during interior fire attack evolutions.
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

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    We use the vindicator nozzle and I'm very happy with its performance. That high flow just knocks down the fire faster (big plus)
    Because of the amount of water flowing the line doesn't kink more then any other line.
    look up some of the past threads about it. a very useful tool. works great with AFFF also.

  9. #9
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    GPM is what extinguishes a fire. Not total gallons, not pressure.

    More water puts the fire out quicker. That's our goal anyway. If you want stop fire damage, put out the fire.
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

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    MembersZone Subscriber ffmedcbk1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NRHFire222 View Post
    "You'll drain your tank to fast"
    I love when people try to use that argument.

    If you deliver the rate of water (aka GPM) the fire is quelled in a short amount of time therefore less total gallons used.

    I have never tested the vindicators, I would like to though
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    GPM is what extinguishes a fire. Not total gallons, not pressure.

    More water puts the fire out quicker. That's our goal anyway. If you want stop fire damage, put out the fire.
    Not GPM, but effective use of GPM. If you don't use your water effectively, it doesn't matter how much you flow. I tell my guys that you won't start to put out the fire till you start applying more GPM than the heat of the fire can absorb, BUT if you can get the water to do a better job of absorbing that heat, you don't need as much GPM. This is the primary argument behind Class A foam and CAFS, in that you're getting the water to stay around longer and absorb more heat instead of becoming runoff.

    That said, we had a discussion about a structure fire and the use of the deluge gun. Several brought up the old "you'll drain your tank too fast" argument, but like I told them, you can hit it hard with 500+GPM and put it out, or **** on it with 1-3/4" nozzles and not make a dent, thereby wasting even more water.

  12. #12
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    We just got back in from an afternoon drill on our new rescue pumper. We decided to try a Vindicator we have had for a while. Here's what we found:

    We could easily flow 100 gpm more with two men on the line with the Vindicator than with an Elkhart Sm-30 automatic. Given we were using 200 ft. of old crappy 1.75" hose flowing 140 gpm was a workout for the to man nozzle crew (not a wimpy pair either). Using the same line with the Vindicator they easily flow 250 gpm.

    For the fun of it we put the Vindicator on a single 50 foot piece of 1.75" (same garbage stuff) and the crew of 2 could flow 300 gpm standing up and operate the line comfortable. On the ground flowing 350 gpm at 150 psi was easy as well. Yes, 1.75" hose!

    We ran some A foam through it as well and it was very impressive, great aeration.

    The only real downside we saw was the inability to make any type of hydraulic vent stream due to the tube on the nozzle end.

    Next time we'll have all Ponn Conquest and will record more numbers.

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber Eno305's Avatar
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    Okay, so what I'm reading here is that a nozzle on an 1-3/4 hose can flow upwards of 250gpm? For those times where we're flowing that amount at the end of a '50 foot hose... I suppose it would be useful. (?)

    What confuses me is that trying to cram that much water through a relatively small hose is going to require a lot of pressure at the pump. Sure, through '50 feet it can hemmorage 250gpm... but what about a more ordinary 150-200'? Calculating using the metric system (up here) I end up with requiring WELL over 250psi just to get it to the nozzle- nevermind adding the extra 50 or so needed AT the nozzle.

    That's asking for a lot of pressure in that first length of hose isn't it? By the time we're looking at functional lengths and pressures- what kind of volume are we getting?

    Don't get me wrong- I'm all about trying out new things... Recently I participated in a lot of research and acquisition of the Saberjet family (admittedly not as popular here as I thought it was going to be)... One thing I CAN say for the SJ is that it's got the diversity to address a number of different attacks and foams- including CAFS and conventional foam delivery- not to mention high volume, low pressure applications in the 2.5" and bigger. Is the Vindicator a little too "specialized" in one area to gain acceptance? Is it more popular for the larger diameter hoses- a la 2.5-3"?
    Ian "Eno" McLeod

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eno305 View Post
    Okay, so what I'm reading here is that a nozzle on an 1-3/4 hose can flow upwards of 250gpm? For those times where we're flowing that amount at the end of a '50 foot hose... I suppose it would be useful. (?)
    We found that at 200 feet, we could flow about 225 gpm with the Vindicator before the FL began to really have a significant effect. At that point and above it took much more PSI to gain much GPM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eno305 View Post
    That's asking for a lot of pressure in that first length of hose isn't it? By the time we're looking at functional lengths and pressures- what kind of volume are we getting?
    No more than the discharge gauge or Master Gauge reads. We're not even talking about getting close to the service test pressure of the hose.

    We tried it and were surprised at the results. Are they practical? Not very, given as you note, stretching 50 ft. of 1.75" and needed that kind of flow is highly unlikely. The point we found was that the nozzle was capable of things not normally associated with SB's or Fog tips. The SB range of flow is limited by the amount of break up as the pressure increases. The fog tips are limited by reaction force and FL.The Vindicator seemed to flow between 180 and 250 gpm very easily with a two FFer's, really only one taking the reaction force and the nozzleman steering. We took the flow up to 350 with the hose looped on the ground and the nozzle itself performed perfect, great stream, that only went further as the flow increased, rather than beat itself up like a SB. So, while I wouldn't expect to use the 1.75" for flows over 225 psi, I would expect them up to that handily and would note the potential for more if needed in a pinch. Next we'll try the Vindicator on a 2.5" as we don't have any 2" which might be ideal?

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    As the manufacture of the Vindicator I want to make sure everyone knows where this post is coming from. I am also a Chief with our VOL department and that too plays a role in my response.

    Quote Originally Posted by kayakking View Post
    The flow's were lower than advertised (when used with our Ponn Conquest 1 3/4" hose).
    I have NEVER seen a Vindicator that would not flow what its rated for. When you say they were lower than advertised, what type of flowmeter were you using? What was the "measured" nozzle pressure. If the stream was pitiful then I suspect you never got the proper pressure to the nozzle. Thats not the nozzles fault. How much FL do you have in your pre-connect plumbing?

    On our VOL department we use 200' preconnects with Vindicators, SM-20's, and Smooth Bores. We have one pumper that can pump 140 DP and flow 250gpm with the Vindicator yet another pumper is rocking at 200 DP to do the same thing. Difference lies in the plumbing. We have found engines that have over 100 psi of loss in order to flow 200 gpm. Now that is not common but rest assured, 20-40psi of plumbing loss is common for that flow and can greatly effect what your realy flowing.

    We saw spreads of 130 DP to 275 DP for the same 225gpm targe flow on 24 different engines. The problem lied in plumbing and different brands of hose. The guys that had to pump well over 200 wanted to blame the nozzle. Problem is, it doesnt matter what nozzle is on the end, if you have major plumbing and or hose FL problems that are not identified, you wont be getting the flow you "think" your getting.

    One of the posts was from VA. I know two engines in Henricho county, delivered the same day, same spec, had a 40lb difference in DP to get the same flows from the same preconnect. Plumbing was the culprit but without "measuring" it with flow meters and pressure gauges there's no way to truly know whats going on. Yes, a pitot for smooth bores but for everything else, flow meters and pressure gauges will solve most flow/stream performance problems straight away.

    PLEASE, dont take my word for it. Get a flow meter, learn how to calibrate it properly, install a pressure gauges at the hose connection in the hose bed, then one at the nozzle inlet and measure you flows. We install the flow meter on the intake so we can measure multiple lines. As long as tank fill, tank to pump, and recirculation is closed you can accuratly measure your flows and pressures.

    Open up the discharge and check all the pressure gauges under static pressure conditions. THey should read the same. We have seen panel gauges, something thats never tested for accuracy, be 60lbs off. When you start using test equipment dont be surprised to find numerous problems.

    As a manufacture, I am forbiden from getting into any of the applications for our product but what I am sharing applies to ALL of your nozzles.

    I travel all over the country and find that 99% of the places I go people have never used a flow meter.

    IFSTA as an example. 1998 we tought a hydraulics class for a group of graduating seniors at Stillwater. There calculated flows from their engine, their hose, their nozzles was 150gpm. The "measured" results were 80 gpm. So if we have people paying a fortune for an education can someone please tell me why they had never even seen a flow meter, let alone use one? This was not a nozzle problem. Their nozzles did excatly what they were suppose to do. The problem was lousy high fl hose and preconnect plumbing loss that has never been taken into consideration.

    Please, measure your flows with flow meters and pressure gauges and build your pump chart based on those flow rates, and check it annually!

    How do we know if we have hose that is delaminated? 1962 Hose testing doesnt tell us squat about the condition of the inside of our hose. We have seen hose pass the pressure test yet not be able to flow more than 150 gpm, no matter what DP. It was delaminated! Flow testing exposes this kind of stuff. We flow test our hose when its new and determine the measured FL. Each year we test it the same way. When the FL numbers climb, we know we have a problem with that section of hose. It does take more time but how else will you ever know your hose is coming apart on the inside?

    I hope the information raises many questions and I urge them. The challenge here is they will have to be in a PM as its not appropriate for me to address product specific questions publicly.

    Happy Easter!

  16. #16
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    KA Good to see you back here!

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    KA Good to see you back here!
    Same to you Paul. I wondered where you had been.

  18. #18
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Hey Don How are you .... I have just had one busy 9 month period that's all! Its always good to look in at how the forum is shaping and 'touch base' with old foes Glad you're still here. Hope you are doing well brother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    We just got back in from an afternoon drill on our new rescue pumper. We decided to try a Vindicator we have had for a while. Here's what we found:

    We could easily flow 100 gpm more with two men on the line with the Vindicator than with an Elkhart Sm-30 automatic. Given we were using 200 ft. of old crappy 1.75" hose flowing 140 gpm was a workout for the to man nozzle crew (not a wimpy pair either). Using the same line with the Vindicator they easily flow 250 gpm.

    For the fun of it we put the Vindicator on a single 50 foot piece of 1.75" (same garbage stuff) and the crew of 2 could flow 300 gpm standing up and operate the line comfortable. On the ground flowing 350 gpm at 150 psi was easy as well. Yes, 1.75" hose!

    We ran some A foam through it as well and it was very impressive, great aeration.

    The only real downside we saw was the inability to make any type of hydraulic vent stream due to the tube on the nozzle end.

    Next time we'll have all Ponn Conquest and will record more numbers.
    Heres some data that will save you some testing, unless you want to expierence it yourself
    .http://00691ee.netsolhost.com/Testim...2520Report.pdf

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Hey Don How are you .... I have just had one busy 9 month period that's all! Its always good to look in at how the forum is shaping and 'touch base' with old foes Glad you're still here. Hope you are doing well brother.
    Better than ever. I hope all is well with you.

    Look for an e-mail in the next few days. I have a couple of questions and thoughts for you to ponder.

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