1. #51
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    Hmmn,Quarter turn coupling vs a screw thread.And you can't see how that's quicker? Lay either direction without a bag of adapters. Nah,that's not going to be any quicker. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Hmmn,Quarter turn coupling vs a screw thread.And you can't see how that's quicker? Lay either direction without a bag of adapters. Nah,that's not going to be any quicker. T.C.
    We don't have storz hydrants, I doubt many hydrants do unless its a very new area. Quarter turn to connect it to the adapter, but screw threads to put the adapter onto the hydrant. So thats an extra quarter turn.

    If there is an appreciable difference in connection time I wouldn't blame the hose, I'd blame the firefighter.

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    Extra labor,ONE end,if your rigs are set up with LDH intas and outtas(ours are). BIG difference in hookup not to mention delivery.MUCH faster than 3". T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Hmmn,Quarter turn coupling vs a screw thread.And you can't see how that's quicker? Lay either direction without a bag of adapters. Nah,that's not going to be any quicker. T.C.
    For the record,
    You can get Storz couplings for 2½" & 3" hose.

    Here's a good quote from Larry Stevens on using Storz couplings on hydrants:
    Last month, my department explained to the water department its desire to convert all 335 hydrants in town to Storz using the water department's budget. Four weeks and $37,000 later, all of the fittings were on order and the problem solved forever. Nothing will ever happen if you don't ask. The days of caps that are too tight, cheater bars, crossed threads and jammed chains are over. Now, 30-second hydrant hookups are the norm. The weight of the hose pack has been reduced significantly, because we no longer need to carry adapters to convert to big and small ports to Storz.
    And more food for thought from Larry:
    Why do the rest of us continue to purchase hydrants with two 2 1/2" and one big port? Is it because we have always spec'd them that way? Did you know that several makers of hydrants can provide a hydrant with twin big ports or a hydrant with one 2 1/2" and two big ports for the same or less money than the old traditional hydrant? Big flows and big ports go hand in hand. Does the water guy know that all hydrants must have steamer ports, have at least a 5" barrel and a 6" or larger supply to get full ISO™ credit?
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    The funny thing is, it seems only those of us that still use 2 3 inch lines can admit our system has drawbacks, but the advantages in our area outweigh them. The LDH crowd seems unable to admit LDH has any drawbacks, which leads me to believe they haven't objectively looked at the issue.


    Until the LDH crowd can understand it isn't a flawless tool, there can't really be a good discussion on the topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Hmmn,Quarter turn coupling vs a screw thread.And you can't see how that's quicker? Lay either direction without a bag of adapters. Nah,that's not going to be any quicker. T.C.
    http://www.salhydro.fi/sh/index.php?...ath=38&pid=122

    We don't have that problem. Our finnish coupling is unisex coupling with a 100 degree twist to lock in place, it takes a beating and still locks up great, sizes up to 4" is with the Finnish fire connector, no tools needed. Next up is 6" Storz. We have minimised the variety of connections, our 1,5 1,75 and 2" hose are all with 2" connections, we skip the 5" storz, we may still use the 5" hose but put on a 6" storz. The VLDH hose, above 6" (e.g. 12", 10") probably have storz or superstorz. Thus, our engine has only 2" and 3" couplings, unless you count a few adapters and the suction hose.

    The one apparent downside with our coupling is that they are a bit big and thus may get caught on a corner if you don't think how you pull the hose trough a house. You'll have to rattle the hose to get it "off the hook".

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    Until the LDH crowd can understand it isn't a flawless tool, there can't really be a good discussion on the topic.
    Here's a few from a FD that uses LDH:

    It's heavier per length. This contributes to making it more time consuming and less "fun" to reload. This causes some to think twice about laying in against better judgment(cured by SOG and discipline).

    The burst and test pressure is lower on most LDH. Common is 200-225 psi with some older stuff being 185 psi. This makes pumping aerials difficult without using more inline pumps or attack rated LDH (we have 5" LDH with 275 psi test pressure).

    It's not as fast to deploy portable guns nor as easy for a single FF to hand jack any distance.

    Can't think of any more right now, we're happy to have it. In fact we just replaced all our 4" with 5" LDH. But given our poorly spaced hydrants and crappy mains, we need all the "help" we can get on the supply side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    The funny thing is, it seems only those of us that still use 2 3 inch lines can admit our system has drawbacks, but the advantages in our area outweigh them. The LDH crowd seems unable to admit LDH has any drawbacks, which leads me to believe they haven't objectively looked at the issue.


    Until the LDH crowd can understand it isn't a flawless tool, there can't really be a good discussion on the topic.
    And in OUR area,you aren't going to do dick with three inch.Hydrants are few and far between.Natural water sources and Engines(including MA)are numerous.We CAN put down over a mile of LDH and get rated flow out the end. 3"? You do the math,unless you cut in a bunch of Engines,it isn't happening.As Adam alludes to,it's slightly more labor intensive to pack,and generally enjoys a somewhat lower test pressure.After using it for over twenty years we're not going back(2.5/3"),we're going BIGGER.As of 6/14/09 everything out of Central will be 5"(4200')on three rigs.Satellite stations will follow,one a year from 4" to 5". NO hose is flawless but water(copious quantities)is what makes most barnburners go away. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Here's a few from a FD that uses LDH:

    It's heavier per length. This contributes to making it more time consuming and less "fun" to reload. This causes some to think twice about laying in against better judgment(cured by SOG and discipline).

    The burst and test pressure is lower on most LDH. Common is 200-225 psi with some older stuff being 185 psi. This makes pumping aerials difficult without using more inline pumps or attack rated LDH (we have 5" LDH with 275 psi test pressure).

    It's not as fast to deploy portable guns nor as easy for a single FF to hand jack any distance.

    Can't think of any more right now, we're happy to have it. In fact we just replaced all our 4" with 5" LDH. But given our poorly spaced hydrants and crappy mains, we need all the "help" we can get on the supply side.
    I'll quote RFDACM02 since there is not much else that I can think of adding since switching to 4" about 25 years ago and then to 5" 15 years ago.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    4" LDH here in a fully hydranted (although often lousy system) area.

    I would say though, the best supply line size is whatever the company behind me chooses to use as I go ahead and attack the fire

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    It may be the only way to go in your district and with your resources, but LDH doesn't come without its drawbacks. I also fail to see how hook up is any quicker.

    OK so twice with this. Name the drawbacks.

    If you're installing hydrants (or replacing) are you installing Storx hydrants or antiques? Storz are same price as steamers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    OK so twice with this. Name the drawbacks.

    If you're installing hydrants (or replacing) are you installing Storx hydrants or antiques? Storz are same price as steamers.
    I know the drawbacks, the point is to have the people knelling at the feet of the LDH god to admit that LDH isn't some magical hose that has all of these advantages with no trade offs.

    If you commonly put a pumper on the hydrant and/or have short lays LDH won't give you an appreciable benefit.

    If you don't have PD or fire police on your heels to shut down the road, LDH can be damaged by cars trying to drive over it.

    If you dont have attack rated LDH you can't put as high pressures through it as 3inch lines.

    If you lay 1 line of LDH vs. 2 lines of 3 inch if there is an issue with the LDH you have no water. If one of the lines of 3 inch is messed up, you shut it down and still have 1 line and some water until secondary water is made.

    You can shut down one of the 2 lines when the fire is controlled, pick that up and leave the single line for overhaul allowing your companies to get back in service quicker.

    3 inch can be moved once its charged, and is less likely to shut down the road for incoming units.

    I'd venture to say it'd be close to impossible (if not impossible) to find an engine out there that doesn't have at least 1 inlet and outlet that'll accommodate 3inch line without using adapters. Where as not every engine has storz connections or adapters.

    Hose left in the supply bed after the lay can be used for large caliber handlines, "blitz" monitors, or other monitors. An engine with LDH either has to make room for 2 1/2 and 3 inch in the bed or loose flexibility by picking one or the other.

    As said before LDH is heavier per length.


    See what looking at it objectively does for us? Now if I was in an area that wasn't well hydranted, I'd take the trade offs for LDH. But when you have good hydrants that are 300-600 ft apart, the LDH isn't worth the trouble. The dual 3" have their drawbacks, but they have a lot of benefits when used in the right environment.
    Last edited by nameless; 04-23-2009 at 10:01 PM.

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    I know the drawbacks, the point is to have the people knelling at the feet of the LDH god to admit that LDH isn't some magical hose that has all of these advantages with no trade offs.
    - definitely not kneeling at the feet of a LDH god.

    If you commonly put a pumper on the hydrant and/or have short lays LDH won't give you an appreciable benefit.
    - true, but we don't put pumpers at hydrants.

    If you don't have PD or fire police on your heels to shut down the road, LDH can be damaged by cars trying to drive over it.
    - we used to use 2 1/2" for supply. Got run over many times by cars. Since switching to 4" and 5", we have had 0 run over by cars.

    If you dont have attack rated LDH you can't put as high pressures through it as 3inch lines.
    - true. Of course, have not needed (and can't see a reason for) more than 150psi in it so I don't see this as an issue.

    If you lay 1 line of LDH vs. 2 lines of 3 inch if there is an issue with the LDH you have no water. If one of the lines of 3 inch is messed up, you shut it down and still have 1 line and some water until secondary water is made.
    - true. And if those 2 3" lines are from 1 engine and the engine has a problem...you still have no water.

    You can shut down one of the 2 lines when the fire is controlled, pick that up and leave the single line for overhaul allowing your companies to get back in service quicker.
    - Been a long time in timing the difference between packing 800' of 5" compared to 800' of 2 1/2", but really don't remember it being much at all. And only have to pack it 1 time as opposed to 2 times.

    3 inch can be moved once its charged, and is less likely to shut down the road for incoming units.
    - true.

    I'd venture to say it'd be close to impossible (if not impossible) to find an engine out there that doesn't have at least 1 inlet and outlet that'll accommodate 3inch line without using adapters. Where as not every engine has storz connections or adapters.
    - majority of engines in my area have the Stortz adapters already in place on their discharges. We also have towns in my area that decided to have their hydrants on different thread standards than others. (and I assume your talking 3" with 2 1/2" couplings)

    Hose left in the supply bed after the lay can be used for large caliber handlines, "blitz" monitors, or other monitors. An engine with LDH either has to make room for 2 1/2 and 3 inch in the bed or loose flexibility by picking one or the other.
    - and if you lay all the 3" for your dual supply lines, now you don't have hose for that handline/monitor/etc. Sounds like bad hose bed planning to me. But, I can see your point.

    As said before LDH is heavier per length.
    - true.

    See what looking at it objectively does for us? Now if I was in an area that wasn't well hydranted, I'd take the trade offs for LDH. But when you have good hydrants that are 300-600 ft apart, the LDH isn't worth the trouble. The dual 3" have their drawbacks, but they have a lot of benefits when used in the right environment.
    - and we did look at it objectively as well. And it does work for us.


    Good Post Nameless.
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    Try your objectivity in MY area.I'll bet you'll lean heavily to LDH. Good post though.As set as YOU are for 3(fittings,tactics,etc)we're equally or more set for LDH operations. As I mentioned earlier we can lay and pump(to capacity)over a mile of LDH. Just out of our dept,never mind the like equipped MA companies. Obviously we each use what we're familar with that works best for our areas.We're not going back,we're going bigger.Oh,I'll keep the 2-300' of 3 we have for utility use but not water supply.With the system you have and the hydrant spacing,I'd probably have a split load. But that's me and over a quarter century of LDH work.As long as the water gets to where it has to be,it's all good. T.C.

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    like I said at the end of my post, its dependent on the area. At times it seems people have jumped on the bandwagon without realizing with all the benefits of LDH, you do take some trade offs compared to 3" lines.
    Last edited by nameless; 04-24-2009 at 10:44 AM.

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    Hope my post didn't come across that way but I still contend that a 5 will deliver more water over DISTANCE than twin three's. I like 3 OK we just never had much of it.And there aren't too many hydrants in a lot of the outskirts.Ergo the LDH. And like any system you're used to and set up for,it works very well.Same as the 3 works for you. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    We've used Angus 4" for years. We're switching to Mercedes Megaflow 5" starting with the Quint and phased in over the next five years. T.C.

    Is the Megaflow actually a double jacket hose. Website says is DJ but specs don't read that way and no photo of hose posted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trendle View Post
    I have experience using 5", 3", 2 x 3", and even 2.5" (long time ago...).

    For water you know you will not run out of, use the 5". I personally think it is just as easy to repack, and being rubber not woven jacket it lays flatter and nicer than some 3" would.

    For most fires though, the 3" is more than enough. A double 3" gets you what a 4" would get you, and that better be enough in all reality.

    The best solution, IMO, is put at least 750 gals on your engines. Have the first engine roll to the scene and the second in company make the hydrant IF IT IS NEEDED. The first in engine will know if you need the line when they get on scene. You don't need more than 750 gallons on 90% of all structure fires. Put the 5" on your engines, use it when you really need it. That way you have it and aren't laying it all the time.
    I couldn't agree more. For master streams 5 inch hose is a must. There is too much friction loss with 3 inch. The last fire we had was a fully involved house fire with exposures. The 2 adjacent houses had fire in the attic. Our 2nd engine was maxed out (1250 GPM pump) when we started using master streams. I know we were flowing way over 1000 GPM and you can't do that with 2 - 3 inch supply lines.

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    JUST USE FIVE INCH =-D I hate LDH too but it has to be used

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    If you dont have attack rated LDH you can't put as high pressures through it as 3inch lines.
    - true. Of course, have not needed (and can't see a reason for) more than 150psi in it so I don't see this as an issue.
    only time I have ever considered or been to told consider pumping LDH at high pressures is when an engine is supplying a pumpless aerial, fully extended, with the stick/tower flowing water. that was the only time you would need to worry about high pressures and "attack" LDH
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    Who says you can't move a charged 5-inch out of your way? It can be done. Just did it about a month ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MEAN15 View Post
    Who says you can't move a charged 5-inch out of your way? It can be done. Just did it about a month ago.
    a 100 ft section of 5inch weighs about 850lbs when filled with water. Not saying it can't be moved by its labor intensive

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    a 100 ft section of 5inch weighs about 850lbs when filled with water. Not saying it can't be moved by its labor intensive
    I didn't find it that difficult. But we don't lift all 100 feet at once, so maybe that's the problem.

    Try lifting five feet at at time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    I didn't find it that difficult. But we don't lift all 100 feet at once, so maybe that's the problem.

    Try lifting five feet at at time.

    +1

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    I didn't find it that difficult. But we don't lift all 100 feet at once, so maybe that's the problem.

    Try lifting five feet at at time.

    That. Was. Awesome.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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