1. #76
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    Our truck was the 4th in truck on a downtown commercial fire. Had to move 5 inch to get the truck into position.

    I didn't move it by myself - there were 6 of us.

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    Default Supply line

    I'm reading all of these posts from guys who say they don't need LDH because 3" works fine and it boggles my mind. Does anyone here remember the Super Sofa Warehouse Fire a few years ago and all of the NIOSH reports and recommendations after the inquiry. They literally ripped that Fire Department apart from bad Command structure down to inadequate hose diameters. They also did not carry LDH(4" or 5") and for the record, 3" is not considered LDH. We as the Fire service must use LDH(4" or 5" is your preference) in order to combat friction loss and different gradient factors that are not addressed with 3" line. This is proven fact, not theory or opinion. 3" has it's applications(FDC, supplying smaller hand lines through gated valves, ladder pipe operations, etc...). But, for supplying an Engine Co for an attack, why wouldn't a person want more water? Another post here that baffled my puny Truckie mind is when did we start fighting entire structure fires off of a booster tank's capacity? One member here posted that every Engine should be at least 750 gallons and the 2nd due Engine can resupply the 1st due Engine if needed. What do you mean, if needed? I could care less if an Engine has a million gallon booster tank, we should only use the booster tank for initial attacks until a hydrant is connected by either the 1st due or 2nd due Engine. The booster tank is designed for 2 things in regards to structure attacks: 1) an initial attack while the hydrant is being connected and 2) if something goes wrong with the water source(hydrant, supply line, drafting tank, etc...) the booster tank is designed to afford an Engine Co enough water to protect themselves or get out safely. Please, this is not my opinion..This is pure fact and any Firefighter who is serious about his/her pumping skills and Enginemanship will agree that 4-5" offers less friction loss and more residual pressure than a 3" line coming off of the same hydrant. I know that LDH is heavier and more cumbersome. But, we are all full grown men/women and we have to do what's right. Please forgive me if I have offended anyone..My only intent is to ensure that every Firefighter goes home safe.

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    You FAILED to take one minor item into consideration. We DON'T all live in a HYDRANTED district. So there goes your supply line MUST be attached the Hydrant to fight fire theory.That's why a lot of us country folk have large(1000+) booster tanks so we can run sustained operations until the second source is established. Also the reason we run big water tankers for the non hydranted district. Some areas in the country have NO HYDRANTS whatsover: What do you propose THEY do?Sorry,your blanket statement doesn't wash. The Super Sofa incident is a somewhat poor choice of arguement as water supply lines was only a small portion of the total picture. A factor? Certainly! But NOT the coffin nail. It would be easier(and take up less space)to list what went RIGHT. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 05-29-2009 at 09:04 AM.

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    adbunar, stick to the ladders and we'll worry about the hose ok?


    Your statements shows you've drank the LDH kool-aid while not actually weighing the benefits and downsides of LDH or MDH.

    I'm serious about my "enginemanship" and know that 3inch has its uses in certain areas and that LDH does in other areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    a 100 ft section of 5inch weighs about 850lbs when filled with water. Not saying it can't be moved by its labor intensive
    I wanna purchase a 100' length of 5" hose that only weighs 17 pounds when empty!

    "You can't move charged LDH" is a pet peeve of mine. Using a short section of webbing that you ought to be carrying in your pocket anyway, just put a girth hitch around the hose, and then drag it anywhere you want to. Using one person, not six, move it wherever you want to.

    And I think that there are some people on here that understand that there are times that 3" is applicable, and times that 5" is applicable. There isn't a "one size fits all" supply line out there. Hell, just look at Harve's county, the massive amount of fire that they catch, and the abundant use of 3" hose there (dual lines every time?!). Maybe they know something we don't?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    You FAILED to take one minor item into consideration. We DON'T all live in a HYDRANTED district. So there goes your supply line MUST be attached the Engine to fight fire theory.That's why a lot of us country folk have large(1000+) booster tanks so we can run sustained operations until the second source is established. Also the reason we run big water tankers for the non hydranted district. Some areas in the country have NO HYDRANTS whatsover: What do you propose THEY do?Sorry,your blanket statement doesn't wash. The Super Sofa incident is a somewhat poor choice of arguement as water supply lines was only a small portion of the total picture. A factor? Certainly! But NOT the coffin nail. It would be easier(and take up less space)to list what went RIGHT. T.C.
    What does being in the rural have to do with hose size? I was on a POC FD that ran 4 inch hose for rural relay ops. Our SOG was to lay 4 inch up the driveway and have our 2800 gallon pumper tanker pump that line for initial water supply until a shuttle could be set up and it could draft out of folding tanks. I know rural FD's in my area that use 5 inch also for similar ops.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    You FAILED to take one minor item into consideration. We DON'T all live in a HYDRANTED district. So there goes your supply line MUST be attached the Engine to fight fire theory.That's why a lot of us country folk have large(1000+) booster tanks so we can run sustained operations until the second source is established. Also the reason we run big water tankers for the non hydranted district. Some areas in the country have NO HYDRANTS whatsover: What do you propose THEY do?Sorry,your blanket statement doesn't wash. The Super Sofa incident is a somewhat poor choice of arguement as water supply lines was only a small portion of the total picture. A factor? Certainly! But NOT the coffin nail. It would be easier(and take up less space)to list what went RIGHT. T.C.

    Use of LDH is not limited to hydranted areas. Zero hydrants in my Fire district.

    1.) Water supply for our town is a fire pond. Draft and pump thru LDH. Makes more sense that running tankers on 500-2000ft shuttle?
    2.) 1/2mi long narrow rural farm lanes that don't support heavy traffic? Lay in LDH from the road.
    3.) Rural structures with large flow required? Construct/establish a water source (pond/tank/cistern) and lay LDH vs trying to shuttle 2000gpm.

    Pumping thru LDH is ALWAYS safer than running a tanker shuttle.

    We also run large tankers to cover rural structures/building sites where we don't have (yet) a local water supply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    The new engine at my VFD will be carrying both.

    that makes me so happy. I just want people to see there is a time and place for everything.

    I've seen situation where only an idiot would use 3 inch, and I've seen situations where only an idiot would chose LDH. Its dynamic, depends on where you are

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    Guys,guys,READ the other post first. WE USE LDH! We're most definitely rural/surburban. My point was a counterpoint that you CAN'T depend on booster tanks,you MUST be hooked to a hydrant. To which I called BS.Doesn't matter on your supply size,or whether or not your hydranted. The Attack Engine needs a second source regardless where that comes from. The other poster (post #77)specifies otherwise. Drop the bomb where it belongs,not on me,hehe T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 05-29-2009 at 09:03 AM.

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    Here's a question for those that are flexible enough to carry both 3" and 5": what do you use to supply a master stream that you have to hand stretch 200-600' away: dual 3's, or a single 5"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    Here's a question for those that are flexible enough to carry both 3" and 5": what do you use to supply a master stream that you have to hand stretch 200-600' away: dual 3's, or a single 5"?
    Our first out pumper has 2 - 500 foot three inch beds and a 1400 foot bed of 5 inch. One of the 3 inch beds is attached to a wye and 100 feet of 2inch for our apartment line. The other is just a deadlay for either attaching our Elkhart Ram or hooking to standpipes.

    The 5 inch is for hydrant lines, relaying, or supplying attacklines from a manifold for extended lays.

    To answer your basic question...We can supply our portable master streams with either single or dual 3 inch lines OR 5 inch if the lay is over 500 feet.

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    We carry 4" LDH. Works well for us and we haven't had a problem.

    The full time, municipal department right next door has 5" LDH. We both have adapters for that "just in case" fire we both are working.

    The other neighbors are set up more for drafting and carry very little supply hose, but they all carry 4" LDH.
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    Default Rear stretch to monitor.

    BlitzFireSolo

    “Here's a question for those that are flexible enough to carry both 3" and 5": what do you use to supply a master stream that you have to hand stretch 200-600' away: dual 3's, or a single 5"?

    Any rear stretch in our dept. will probably be assigned to the 3rd due engine. Manning will most likely be 4 total, so the choice would be the 3” from a static bed, stretching 1 line first. 2 FF’s take the monitor and the 3rd runs a shoulder and drag combination for stretches up to about 300 ft. The first line is connected and charged, while the second line is run and patched in. Longer stretches than 300 aren’t possible because the static 3” bed only has 600 ft. 300 to 600 ft. would require the engine to drop 2 – 50’ joints of 3” along with a portable hydrant, and lay out to a water source. A forward thinking officer would also drop a 1 3/4” shoulder load and a 2 ½ X 1 ½ wye for overhaul later on.

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    I am sure there is an NFPA book on the subject.........just waiting to see that asked......
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    What does being in the rural have to do with hose size? I was on a POC FD that ran 4 inch hose for rural relay ops. Our SOG was to lay 4 inch up the driveway and have our 2800 gallon pumper tanker pump that line for initial water supply until a shuttle could be set up and it could draft out of folding tanks. I know rural FD's in my area that use 5 inch also for similar ops.
    Short answer: Nothing! And MY point was we are RURAL/Surburban and run oodles of LDH. We've got 2600' on our Reel truck. For our ops it's far and away better than 3" particularly in the NON hydranted district.Push water farther with less FL and higher flows.My response was directed at the "MUST" have a hydrant hooked to the pumper before attacking crowd. That DOES NOT happen here,attack starts off tank water. T.C.

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    FyredUp/KuhShise:

    What inlet threads do you use for your portable (1,000gpm) monitors? We now have three generations of Stinger bases on three different engines - dual, clappered 2 1/2" inlets, single 4" Storz, and most recently single 5" Storz.

    Now I'm thinking that we should consider going back to the dual 2 1/2" inlets, as dual 3's seem like the easiest option (I like the idea of dual 400-500' beds of 3").

    We could always add a wye or clappered siamese behind the 5" Storz, but that would make an already heavy and awkward monitor even more heavy and awkward to carry 500 feet over varied terrain, or through snow (always the case!).

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    FyredUp/KuhShise:

    What inlet threads do you use for your portable (1,000gpm) monitors? We now have three generations of Stinger bases on three different engines - dual, clappered 2 1/2" inlets, single 4" Storz, and most recently single 5" Storz.

    Now I'm thinking that we should consider going back to the dual 2 1/2" inlets, as dual 3's seem like the easiest option (I like the idea of dual 400-500' beds of 3").

    We could always add a wye or clappered siamese behind the 5" Storz, but that would make an already heavy and awkward monitor even more heavy and awkward to carry 500 feet over varied terrain, or through snow (always the case!).
    You mignt have a case for some 3 1/2" Hose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    FyredUp/KuhShise:

    What inlet threads do you use for your portable (1,000gpm) monitors? We now have three generations of Stinger bases on three different engines - dual, clappered 2 1/2" inlets, single 4" Storz, and most recently single 5" Storz.

    Now I'm thinking that we should consider going back to the dual 2 1/2" inlets, as dual 3's seem like the easiest option (I like the idea of dual 400-500' beds of 3").

    We could always add a wye or clappered siamese behind the 5" Storz, but that would make an already heavy and awkward monitor even more heavy and awkward to carry 500 feet over varied terrain, or through snow (always the case!).

    Dual 2 1/2's. Besides being usable with our 3 inch it is most compatible with our mutual aid companies who all run either 2 1/2 or 3 inch (with 2 1/2 inch couplings. This area has a mix of 2 1/2, 3, 4 and 5 inch for supply lines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    FyredUp/KuhShise:

    What inlet threads do you use for your portable (1,000gpm) monitors? We now have three generations of Stinger bases on three different engines - dual, clappered 2 1/2" inlets, single 4" Storz, and most recently single 5" Storz.

    Now I'm thinking that we should consider going back to the dual 2 1/2" inlets, as dual 3's seem like the easiest option (I like the idea of dual 400-500' beds of 3").

    We could always add a wye or clappered siamese behind the 5" Storz, but that would make an already heavy and awkward monitor even more heavy and awkward to carry 500 feet over varied terrain, or through snow (always the case!).
    We use the dual 2.5" inlets guns (TFT/Akron/Elkhart/Protech) some have Smooth bore and some auto nozzles... With our engines we have single and dual 800' dead lay beds of 3" hose. Now our quints have just 5" so carry 5" to 2.5" reducer...

    If I had manpower the 5" would be great, but 3" could be done with min 2 and have up and flowing in no time...

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    "What inlet threads do you use for your portable (1,000gpm) monitors? We now have three generations of Stinger bases on three different engines - dual, clappered 2 1/2" inlets, single 4" Storz, and most recently single 5" Storz. Now I'm thinking that we should consider going back to the dual 2 1/2" inlets, as dual 3's seem like the easiest option (I like the idea of dual 400-500' beds of 3")."

    Guys: We are working with some old equipment that dates back to the 1970’s, like Akron monitors with roof mounts on Mack CF’s as well as newer demountable Stangs with 2 inlet bases. Consequently all devices have 2 ½” inlets with clappers.
    All engines are equipped with 4 or 5 – 200’ preconnected 1 ¾” lines each 200 ft. long. Also have 2 – 2 ½” P.C. lines, 200’ long. PC’s are packed upside-down with the nozzle on the bottom, and all lines off the rear are attached to wyes that can be disconnected from the engine to be advanced to the end of either the 2 ½” PC or a 3” advanced from the static bed. All engines carry a “Water Thief” so that a leader line can be advanced into a “big box” and have 2 – 1 ¾” and a 2 ½” line attached. We have tried to set up our engines so that we can utilize the full capacity of the engine through hand lines as well as master streams. 180 psi EP’s on 1500 GPM engines approach 1400 GPM delivery. 5 - 1 ¾” lines with automatics = 900 gpm plus 2 – 2 ½” = 500 gpm for a total application of 1400 gpm. When supplying a master stream at 1,000 gpm and both 2 ½’s gets us to 1500 gpm again.

    Having reread this entire forum, there are a few things we might suggest.
    First, any discussion of hose should be addressed in the context of an entire system of supplying water to a target pressure and volume for hazards identified in your fire protection district. Tactics, engines, hose and water supply sources should be compatible with the target hazards. I know that’s a mouthful, but any good officer must do a pre-fire plan for the worst problems in his service area. A 500 gpm pump does not need a load of 5” LDH, it is a waste of resources. Likewise a 2,000 gpm pump equipped with 3” hose will be a waste of pumping capacity since 1,000 gpm through a 3” has 100 psi per 100’ loss or a relay of only 150 feet using duals. I am suggesting that you must match both the pump capacity and the hose size and length to fit the problem/s that your preplans have identified. If we assume that a normal bed capacity for an engine is 1,500 ft of 5” LDH, then a good match might be a 1750 gpm pump producing about 1350 gpm at 180 psi. At this pressure (max for single jacket LDH) we can get that flow through about 1400 feet of 5” hose. If all your water supplies are close to your target (500 ft. or less), then a 2,000 gpm pump is a good choice since it can supply full capacity through 500 ft. and still have 20 psi incoming at the relay engine.
    I hope this will get everyone thinking about a delivery “System” instead of the individual components as separate problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KuhShise View Post

    Guys: We are working with some old equipment that dates back to the 1970’s, like Akron monitors with roof mounts on Mack CF’s as well as newer demountable Stangs with 2 inlet bases. Consequently all devices have 2 ½” inlets with clappers.

    I am not sure that age of equipment is as relevant in the choice of inlets for a ground monitor as the equipment on hand is. We made the choice based on availability of 3 inch hose on all of our rigs, AND equipment our mutual aid engines use. If need be for a longer lay we can adapt upp to a single 5 inch line.


    All engines are equipped with 4 or 5 – 200’ preconnected 1 ¾” lines each 200 ft. long. Also have 2 – 2 ½” P.C. lines, 200’ long. PC’s are packed upside-down with the nozzle on the bottom, and all lines off the rear are attached to wyes that can be disconnected from the engine to be advanced to the end of either the 2 ½” PC or a 3” advanced from the static bed. All engines carry a “Water Thief” so that a leader line can be advanced into a “big box” and have 2 – 1 ¾” and a 2 ½” line attached. We have tried to set up our engines so that we can utilize the full capacity of the engine through hand lines as well as master streams. 180 psi EP’s on 1500 GPM engines approach 1400 GPM delivery. 5 - 1 ¾” lines with automatics = 900 gpm plus 2 – 2 ½” = 500 gpm for a total application of 1400 gpm. When supplying a master stream at 1,000 gpm and both 2 ½’s gets us to 1500 gpm again.

    We set about a similar route with our new rescue pumper. We had 4 - 2 inch preconnects that flow a max of 300 gpm each for a flow of 1200 gpm and then a preconnected deckgun that will flow in excess of 1000 gpm. We also have our dead lay beds of 3 inch with one set up as an apartment line and one with nothing attached that we can hook our Elkhart Ram to or use for other purposes.

    Having reread this entire forum, there are a few things we might suggest.
    First, any discussion of hose should be addressed in the context of an entire system of supplying water to a target pressure and volume for hazards identified in your fire protection district. Tactics, engines, hose and water supply sources should be compatible with the target hazards. I know that’s a mouthful, but any good officer must do a pre-fire plan for the worst problems in his service area. A 500 gpm pump does not need a load of 5” LDH, it is a waste of resources. Likewise a 2,000 gpm pump equipped with 3” hose will be a waste of pumping capacity since 1,000 gpm through a 3” has 100 psi per 100’ loss or a relay of only 150 feet using duals. I am suggesting that you must match both the pump capacity and the hose size and length to fit the problem/s that your preplans have identified. If we assume that a normal bed capacity for an engine is 1,500 ft of 5” LDH, then a good match might be a 1750 gpm pump producing about 1350 gpm at 180 psi. At this pressure (max for single jacket LDH) we can get that flow through about 1400 feet of 5” hose. If all your water supplies are close to your target (500 ft. or less), then a 2,000 gpm pump is a good choice since it can supply full capacity through 500 ft. and still have 20 psi incoming at the relay engine.
    I hope this will get everyone thinking about a delivery “System” instead of the individual components as separate problems.

    I am not sure I agree with all of what you are saying above. A smaller capacity pump can benefit from LDH every bit as much as a bigger one. What LDH does for a small capacity pump is allow you to move all the water that pump can pump farther than smaller lines would. Efficiency is paramount in that situation because there is no reserve capacity that can make up for friction loss. In a 2000 gpm pumper it can still pump 1000 gpm at 250 psi, if a 500 gpm pumper pumps at 250 psi it only has 250 gpm flow left.
    This has been a good discussion. Interesting and informative.

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    FyredUp:
    I agree that talking strictly delivery volume, LDH is an advantage, but we are discussing the entire delivery system and need to evaluate the process in terms of dollars. If our decision is to deliver 500 gpm at a point 600 feet from the water source, then a 500 gpm pump loaded with 600 feet of 3" line at $ 3.72 per foot coupled will be the most cost effective delivery system. I say this because the 5" line has a cost of $ 6.35 / ft. coupled. This will be $ 1,578.00 more expensive using the 5" to deliver the required quantity of water to the fireground. This sort of reduction of opinion, methods and calculations down to $ & cents costs needs to done with a lot of thought in order to provide the public with the best possible service at the lowest possible cost. If you extend the required lay beyond 600 feet, the 5" quickly becomes the most economical system. Staying with 3" would require laying duals and doubling the initial hose cost. Deciding to stay with a single 3" line would require the purchase of a larger engine (1,000 gpm pumper could push 500 gpm about 1,000 ft). It would seem that 1,000 ft of LDH would certainly caus less of in increase in overall cost than a larger engine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KuhShise View Post
    FyredUp:
    I agree that talking strictly delivery volume, LDH is an advantage, but we are discussing the entire delivery system and need to evaluate the process in terms of dollars. If our decision is to deliver 500 gpm at a point 600 feet from the water source, then a 500 gpm pump loaded with 600 feet of 3" line at $ 3.72 per foot coupled will be the most cost effective delivery system. I say this because the 5" line has a cost of $ 6.35 / ft. coupled. This will be $ 1,578.00 more expensive using the 5" to deliver the required quantity of water to the fireground. This sort of reduction of opinion, methods and calculations down to $ & cents costs needs to done with a lot of thought in order to provide the public with the best possible service at the lowest possible cost. If you extend the required lay beyond 600 feet, the 5" quickly becomes the most economical system. Staying with 3" would require laying duals and doubling the initial hose cost. Deciding to stay with a single 3" line would require the purchase of a larger engine (1,000 gpm pumper could push 500 gpm about 1,000 ft). It would seem that 1,000 ft of LDH would certainly caus less of in increase in overall cost than a larger engine.
    What is the life expectancy of each length?

    My sense is that LDH will last quite a bit longer.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KuhShise View Post
    FyredUp:
    I agree that talking strictly delivery volume, LDH is an advantage, but we are discussing the entire delivery system and need to evaluate the process in terms of dollars. If our decision is to deliver 500 gpm at a point 600 feet from the water source, then a 500 gpm pump loaded with 600 feet of 3" line at $ 3.72 per foot coupled will be the most cost effective delivery system. I say this because the 5" line has a cost of $ 6.35 / ft. coupled. This will be $ 1,578.00 more expensive using the 5" to deliver the required quantity of water to the fireground. This sort of reduction of opinion, methods and calculations down to $ & cents costs needs to done with a lot of thought in order to provide the public with the best possible service at the lowest possible cost. If you extend the required lay beyond 600 feet, the 5" quickly becomes the most economical system. Staying with 3" would require laying duals and doubling the initial hose cost. Deciding to stay with a single 3" line would require the purchase of a larger engine (1,000 gpm pumper could push 500 gpm about 1,000 ft). It would seem that 1,000 ft of LDH would certainly caus less of in increase in overall cost than a larger engine.
    I guess we will need to agree to disagree on this topic.

    It seems illogical to me to handicap a pumper with smaller hose, especially if the rest of the department apparatus has LDH. In my area there are long driveways, some in access of 1000 feet, that have no room for tankers to manuever. A hose lay from the supply point to the attack pumper is really the only option.

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    I don't get the whole idea of "matching hose to the pump size." Regardless of draft or off a pressurized source, the LDH will always allow the pump to perform to the maximum capacity. That measley 500 GPM pump on a decent hydrant might get up to 1000 or 1250 GPM if it gets enough water. Likewise using 5" LDH, at draft, if the pump is not fighting the friction loss of 3" hose, youll move the same quantity of water a longer distance or a greater quantity over the same distance as the equivalent length 3". Am I wrong to think this?

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