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    Default Employee Fair Choice Act

    Can someone explain to me why, as a Union member, you are opposed to allowing a secret ballot when employees are voting on forming a union? I don't want the party line, I am looking for your opinion.

    It seems to me that the secret ballot is the foundation for elections in this country. It boggles my mind that anyone would advocate against it.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    I'm not a union member any longer, but the way I read the text of the act (H.R. 800, 3/2/07) , EFCA contains no language about eliminating the "secret ballot" enshrined in the National Labor Relations Act under Section 9e.

    Under EFCA, workers would still have the right to vote in a National Labor Review Board (NLRB) "secret ballot" election if 30 percent of the workforce signs cards, just as they do now. EFCA would change the process of union formation by giving workers seeking to join a union an additional option of winning union representation after a majority of the workforce signs cards, through a new provision to the act (section 9 c 6).

    As American Rights at Work points out, this method of union sign-up, known as "majority sign-up" or "card check," is already recognized under current labor law, but only when the employer approves it. EFCA would represent a change in such union drives by removing the ability of employers to withhold recognition and to insist on an NLRB election.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Can someone explain to me why, as a Union member, you are opposed to allowing a secret ballot when employees are voting on forming a union? I don't want the party line, I am looking for your opinion.

    It seems to me that the secret ballot is the foundation for elections in this country. It boggles my mind that anyone would advocate against it.
    As a former union organizer i can give you the rationale on it. Once a petition to represent employees is filed, in a best case scenario it takes 45 days until an election is held. In most cases, management begins a campaign of intimidation and mis-information among the employees and while there is nothing illegal against spreading misinformation or outright lies, its the intimidation factor that is the real issue; I personally have been involved in campaigns where the company, in an attempt to squash the organizing drive, has conducted campaigns of intimidation/threats/retaliation and in some cases, fired employees to "make an example of them" while knowing full well that a the union will file a charge with the NLRB and most likely get the fired employee his/her job back, but the damage is done; many people willl decide they don't want to be fired and be afraid of supporting the union; afterall its the company who pays them their wages. In either case, the company accomplishes its goals and the union organizers go away. There's no detraction to the company or serious remedy other then to pay possibly back wages and post a sign saying they "won't do it again"; but there's no teeth to any of the laws protecting workers against illegal termination.

    The new proposed law would fix many of the issues; by a simple majority of signers, company's would have to recognize the union (employees would still have the right to demand an NLRB supervised election) and if unable to bargain a first time labor agreement within (I think its 90 days) a set period of time, then binding arbitration (a mechanism of resolving differences which has worked well for decades) would be instituted. As far as why its not necessary to have a mandatory election is rather simple in the eyes of organzied labor; if employees don't want a union, why would they sign the authorization card in the first place. Plus if they change their minds they could always demand back the authorization card they signed. Additionally it would strengthen laws and penalties for employers who willingly violate the NLRA of 1934.

    Plain and simple, its a way of removing a step in the old process which in many cases was abused mainly by management; Its been a long time in coming and will place unions on a level playing field with management.

    I could go on with alot more information, but that may be all you need to have. Anyhow, from my perspective, thats the rationale that i believe its based on.

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    I got to this sentence...

    In most cases, management begins a campaign of intimidation and mis-information among the employees and while there is nothing illegal against spreading misinformation or outright lies, its the intimidation factor that is the real issue;
    and stopped reading your propaganda. Thanks for stopping by.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I'm not a union member any longer, but the way I read the text of the act (H.R. 800, 3/2/07) , EFCA contains no language about eliminating the "secret ballot" enshrined in the National Labor Relations Act under Section 9e.

    Under EFCA, workers would still have the right to vote in a National Labor Review Board (NLRB) "secret ballot" election if 30 percent of the workforce signs cards, just as they do now. EFCA would change the process of union formation by giving workers seeking to join a union an additional option of winning union representation after a majority of the workforce signs cards, through a new provision to the act (section 9 c 6).

    As American Rights at Work points out, this method of union sign-up, known as "majority sign-up" or "card check," is already recognized under current labor law, but only when the employer approves it. EFCA would represent a change in such union drives by removing the ability of employers to withhold recognition and to insist on an NLRB election.
    Neither side explained it like that. Thanks.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I got to this sentence...



    and stopped reading your propaganda. Thanks for stopping by.
    Well, I can see its useless to attempt to rationalize with you. Oh, and your welcome.

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    As I understand this,if someone comes to you asking if you'd sign a petition to allow union reps to come into the company,it is a legal vote to unionize your workplace even if you didn't mark a ballot and drop it into a voting box to be counted without anyone know how anyone voted on the issue.
    Don't sound right to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gamewell35 View Post
    Well, I can see its useless to attempt to rationalize with you. Oh, and your welcome.
    In most cases, management begins a campaign of intimidation and mis-information among the employees and while there is nothing illegal against spreading misinformation or outright lies, its the intimidation factor that is the real issue;

    You call that rationalization?
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    As I understand this,if someone comes to you asking if you'd sign a petition to allow union reps to come into the company,it is a legal vote to unionize your workplace even if you didn't mark a ballot and drop it into a voting box to be counted without anyone know how anyone voted on the issue.
    Don't sound right to me.
    If you sign the petition or authorization card (most unions i'm aware of utilize authorization cards) that is the same thing as voting yes. Of course if your not in favor of having a union, then I would recommend you not sign a petition or authorization card.

    As a side-note, when i was an organizer, all authorization cards were kept confidential and only the organizer and perhaps the internal organizing committee knew, but that was it.
    Last edited by gamewell35; 03-10-2009 at 05:07 PM.

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    The secret ballot is the way to go. If you allow Union organizers the ability to strong arm employees into joining the Union you have accomplished nothing. Allowing the unions to coerce employees into signing cards so they can weasel their way in the door reminds one of Johnny Hoffa. We don't need to give the unions.

    To be done right, and fairly, there needs to be a day set up where all employees can do a secret ballot.

    I also wonder why a person can go out and start a company as a one man show and grow that company to be many employees, and then be forced to recognize a union. If that man had wanted the union he would have built it that way. I remember my dad had built a construction company up form the ground. He started as his own 1 person show and grew it until it was roughly 30 guys working for him. The guys one day decided they wanted to unionize. He told them to go ahead, but the minute there was a union he was shutting the doors. God I love that man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gamewell35 View Post
    If you sign the petition or authorization card (most unions i'm aware of utilize authorization cards) that is the same thing as voting yes. Of course if your not in favor of having a union, then I would recommend you not sign a petition or authorization card.

    As a side-note, when i was an organizer, all authorization cards were kept confidential and only the organizer and perhaps the internal organizing committee knew, but that was it.
    Yea, and the guys in favor of the union certainly won't gang up on the weak and force them to sign. This act is pathetic and un-American. I can't imagine even the nutcases on Capitol hill supporting such a harebrained idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Yea, and the guys in favor of the union certainly won't gang up on the weak and force them to sign. This act is pathetic and un-American. I can't imagine even the nutcases on Capitol hill supporting such a harebrained idea.
    Much like your credit card agrements, you haven't read or understood it either.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I also wonder why a person can go out and start a company as a one man show and grow that company to be many employees, and then be forced to recognize a union.
    Because the law states so.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Because the law states so.
    You are correct; all it takes is a shop of five people and legally they can form a union. Most companies reject the thought of having a union as it means less control they have over their employees. The company's mantra of "we dictate; you accept" is prevalent throughout many businesses in today's world. Imagine the employees having a say in their future?? Sounds rather radical wouldn't you say??

    BTW, it may come to a surprise to some of the posters in here; particularly those who are anti-union, that most executives of well established corporations all have Personal Service Agreements (PSA's). These are legally binding labor contracts which guarantee the terms and conditions of employment for the executive; such as salary, stock options, medical plans, pensions, severance packages, and other perks. My question is: if Executives need a contract, then how come the employees don't need one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Yea, and the guys in favor of the union certainly won't gang up on the weak and force them to sign. This act is pathetic and un-American. I can't imagine even the nutcases on Capitol hill supporting such a harebrained idea.
    Tell me Crow; has it ever personally happened to you? Or is this a tall tale your telling those who may be gullible??

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Because the law states so.
    Just because it is the law doesn't make it right. It is his business, he has all the risk, he should be free to run it the way he wants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Just because it is the law doesn't make it right. It is his business, he has all the risk, he should be free to run it the way he wants.
    Then change the law. Or challenge it in court and claim it's unvalid.
    Last edited by scfire86; 03-11-2009 at 08:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Much like your credit card agrements, you haven't read or understood it either.
    gamewell35 stated

    The new proposed law would fix many of the issues; by a simple majority of signers, company's would have to recognize the union ...
    So all those in favor of wanting a union would have to do is strong arm the weak ones into signing.

    And as I have stated many times, I understood the credit card agreements. Circumstances and events out of my control forced the situation upon. I take the liberal line here, it wasn't my fault, it was society and my upbringing that caused the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gamewell35 View Post
    Tell me Crow; has it ever personally happened to you? Or is this a tall tale your telling those who may be gullible??
    I've seen it happen. Many years ago a lady came by my house asking me to sign a petition to lower the speed limit in front of her house. She caught me at a weak moment and I signed. An hour or so later I wished I hadn't signed.

    I've seen people pressured into making donations to things they don't want to donate to. I've seen peer pressure push people to do things they simply don't want to do, but do anyway. If you don't think people get bullied into doing things and signing things that don't want to then I would like to sell you some ocean front property in Utah. At least that is where the shore will be someday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post

    So all those in favor of wanting a union would have to do is strong arm the weak ones into signing.
    Doubtful this happens. More like anecdotes that are prevaricated by wingnuts.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    And as I have stated many times, I understood the credit card agreements. Circumstances and events out of my control forced the situation upon. I take the liberal line here, it wasn't my fault, it was society and my upbringing that caused the problem.
    Yes. Society forced you to buy things you couldn't afford. Nice try.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by gamewell35 View Post
    You are correct; all it takes is a shop of five people and legally they can form a union. Most companies reject the thought of having a union as it means less control they have over their employees. The company's mantra of "we dictate; you accept" is prevalent throughout many businesses in today's world. Imagine the employees having a say in their future?? Sounds rather radical wouldn't you say??

    BTW, it may come to a surprise to some of the posters in here; particularly those who are anti-union, that most executives of well established corporations all have Personal Service Agreements (PSA's). These are legally binding labor contracts which guarantee the terms and conditions of employment for the executive; such as salary, stock options, medical plans, pensions, severance packages, and other perks. My question is: if Executives need a contract, then how come the employees don't need one?
    Actually, each and every person has a contract at our non-union shop as well. However, as a leading company in the IT security field the managers understand the need to keep well trained and competent employees. So they take care of the people who work there. My base salary is 57,500. Then there are bonuses, stock options, stocks for longevity, Employee Stock Purchase plan, time off, 401K with matching funds, a health care plan that cost me $40 a month, a dental plan that covers up to 2,500 for $18 a month, free eye care, life insurance, Accidental Death and Disability, and a very liberal work schedule.

    I've said it before and I will say it again. The only people the unions protect are the slackers. Those who work hard and do a good job will do just fine on their own merits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Then change the law. Or challenge it in court and claim it's unvalid.
    Good idea, we should change the law for the better, not worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Doubtful this happens. More like anecdotes that are prevaricated by wingnuts.
    Hmmm, isn't it the whacky left who proclaims that under the current system employers intimidate the employees, More like anecdotes that are prevaricated by wingnuts.

    Yes. Society forced you to buy things you couldn't afford. Nice try.
    Oh no. Society taught me that we need to have it all and have it now. The leaders of this country have shown me that it is OK to spend way beyond our means, in fact, they lead by example. Really, it's not my fault, if we didn't live in this type of society I would never have been influenced into making such poor decisions. I am merely a product of the liberal environment that has been created.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Good idea, we should change the law for the better, not worse.
    Go for it.

    Let us know how it turns out.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Oh no. Society taught me that we need to have it all and have it now. The leaders of this country have shown me that it is OK to spend way beyond our means, in fact, they lead by example. Really, it's not my fault, if we didn't live in this type of society I would never have been influenced into making such poor decisions. I am merely a product of the liberal environment that has been created.
    Or you were being your normal self and being stupid.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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