1. #1
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    Default is punishment neccessary?

    if an off duty firefighter is at a seperate fire department's event, and is in uniform and drinking, and does not get out of control, does nothing to embarass himself or the fire department, should he be held liable for drinking? he was off duty and in uniform, but it was an event where other departments were also in uniform and drinking. should punishment be handed out? what if there was nothing in his departments policies and procedures handbook that specifically stated anything about it, being in uniform off duty at a differing fire departments function...
    Last edited by kfdcowboy; 03-11-2009 at 11:35 PM.

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    Brother

    I will put it to you this way. Did the department purchase the uniform for you. Also your deparment heads may frown on going to an event like this in uniform. I know of a couple of instances where our guys which I work on a paid department went to a couple of places after work in uniform and got in trouble for it. Our policy is that once we leave shift or are off duty we can not wear our uniform. Most usually if you get in trouble it is usually a write up is all we get. It can be more severe if you do something worse or continually keep doing the same stuff over and over. I think if you do get in trouble you need to address the issue with the chief in regards to sog's and sop's as far as the uniform issue goes so there is no further trouble. Hope this was a little help to you.

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    Until you see cops hanging out in local bars drinking in their uniform then it isn't okay to do the same in yours.

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    The powers in charge of whomever uniform was being worn while drinking certainly have the right to have a policy against consuming alcohol while in their uniform, whether the subject is in control or not, however it should be in writing and adopted as Department policy and backed up by a standard disciplinary guideline.

    For a first-time infraction, taking into consideration that he was not out of control, (with no written policy in place) I believe my reaction as the Chief would be to slap his wrist, request that he not do it again, and then have the written policy in place ASAP.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Well, like it or not, the rules are slightly different for paid and volunteer. The paid folks usually have a place to change and only wear their uniforms while on duty. I know as a volunteer I put my stuff on when I leave the house, and this includes my bunkers.

    The next issue, unless there is a written policy that prohibits it they should not punish you.

    I know around here many departments go to fairs and parades. You see many of the volunteers having one or two before leaving, the paid guys are on duty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Well, like it or not, the rules are slightly different for paid and volunteer. Why would the rules for wearing a uniform while off-duty be different?? The paid folks usually have a place to change and only wear their uniforms while on duty. I have worn my career uniform while off-duty to many events I know as a volunteer I put my stuff on when I leave the house, and this includes my bunkers. You bring/wear your bunkers into the house? You really are a moron, aren't you???

    The next issue, unless there is a written policy that prohibits it they should not punish you.

    I know around here many departments go to fairs and parades. You see many of the volunteers having one or two before leaving, the paid guys are on duty.If they go to these parades and events while riding Department apparatus, wouldn't you consider this being "on duty" and that they should not be allowed to consume alcohol, again, while on duty and riding department apparatus?
    Around here, if you ride a rig to a parade or some other event that has alcohol, and you want to consume, not only are you placed out of service for a minimum of 8 hours, you also have to find your own ride home. But we are getting away from the topic at hand.

    It makes no difference if you are career or volunteer. If you are wearing a Department uniform, there may be some policies and procedures that come with wearing that uniform. They should be clear and consistent, and as any other major policy, should be acknowledged by the recipient by his/her signature on a "I have read and understand the policy implementation and/or change and agree to abide by them" receipt.

    Again if no written policy is in place, this Chief is wrong for issuing any discipline other than a verbal slap on the wrist behind closed doors.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    FWDBUFF

    I'm simply discussing in realistic terms vs idealistic.

    As I went on to explain, the rules are different for paid and volunteer because of the nature of the beast. If you go to a parade as a paid person you are on duty until you return to station. The volunteer is different, unless they drove or rode the truck to the parade. If you take your POV you dress at home. That is just the way it is.

    But like we have both said, unless there is a clearly written policy forbidding it then there is no grounds for discipline.

    As for the bunkers, if they are clean I bring them in. In the 2 months of summer that we get I leave them in the garage. I live 3 miles from the station which in good conditions is about a 5 minute ride. The apparatus are usually on the road by the time I get to the station. Hence, I usually drive my POV to the scene, especially when it is in the opposite direction of the station. We have had this discussion numerous times, for those who live close by it makes sense to leave their stuff in the station, for those of us in the outlying areas it does not.
    Last edited by ScareCrow57; 03-12-2009 at 08:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    The powers in charge of whomever uniform was being worn while drinking certainly have the right to have a policy against consuming alcohol while in their uniform, whether the subject is in control or not, however it should be in writing and adopted as Department policy and backed up by a standard disciplinary guideline.

    For a first-time infraction, taking into consideration that he was not out of control, (with no written policy in place) I believe my reaction as the Chief would be to slap his wrist, request that he not do it again, and then have the written policy in place ASAP.
    I agree. A policy needs to be in place. Writing that policy will be tough. There are times, though few, where drinking while in uniform may be acceptable. Not normally out in public. Not out of control. I have been to many a fireman's funeral service where the members company has returned to their station and had an honorary farewell shot.

    Whatever your policy....no drinking and responding should be part of it. Period.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Ever since I first put on a US Navy uniform that I paid for out of my first paycheck,it has been told that you do not embarass the service or uniform by acting a drunken fool no matter where you are.
    It doesn't matter if you are in uniform(even t shirt and jeans for the vollies) and at a different department's function.You act as if your parents raised you to be polite and well mannered and didn't leave you out for a pack of wolves to bring up.
    Just because the host department guys are doing it doesn't mean that you should swing from the chandeliers and hit on the Chief's wife and/or daughter.Stand back and watch what happens so later on YOU can post what they did on youtube and comment to your buddies back at YOUR station "Boys,you'll NEVER guess what those crazy dudes at XYZ Department were doing.I can't believe they get away with that stuff.Cap sure wouldn't stand for it around here."
    Like others,I do not believe that hoisting one in memory of a fallen bro or sister is out of line while in uniform.Just make sure that that is the only one and that until it gets out of your system(probably eat something and wait 3 hours just to be sure) and off your breath,you should have the pager or radio turned off and maybe let your officers know that you won't be responding that night.Hopefully,for the paid guys,the wake will fall on an off night for you and you won't have to worry about tones dropping.
    And if you go to another department or your own's party intending to tie one on,make sure you have a ride home,are out of uniform and remember that if YOU can post other people's idiocy on youtube,yours can be posted just as quickly.
    Last edited by doughesson; 03-12-2009 at 01:42 PM.

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    The next issue, unless there is a written policy that prohibits it they should not punish you.
    You don't know much about the fire service, do you?

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    Mooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmm!!! All the other kids were doing it!

    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Default Punishment?

    I have never figured why some people feel it is OK to do something if there is nothing in writing that says we can't. In the department I belong to we have nothing in our rules, regs, SOP's or SOG's that say we can't murder anyone but I don't think any of our members are so stupid to figure they would retain their membership if they did such a thing. At some point everyone must use some good judgement. There are consequences for your actions.

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    you are representing your department and its workers.. so if you are drinking, basically the whole department is full of drunks...

    thats just how the public sees it...

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    Hey ScareDCat

    Back at my old station there was no policy about taking a dump on the AC desk, so I should not get in trouble if I did?

    You are an idiot.

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    In my department, doesn't matter what the function is, where you are at or what you are doing....you drink in uniform, you will be reprimanded.

    My honest opinion, it's a discrace to the uniform and the job to drink while in uniform. Just not professional regardless if you are a sloppy drunk or not.

    if you are going to drink, take the uniform off, period.
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    Im not saying that there is anything wrong with this guy, (even though there may be) but, how hard is it to just change before you go out to the bar. You would think he might go home, or atleast change up and shower at the station before he went out, why not just change your clothes and be done with it, after all you are off duty.

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    We have fire personnel who travel (several hours) to participate in events such as parades. The distance between the various events and our jurisdiction alone would signal that they are not on-duty. They must inform the Fire Chief where they will be. Class A uniforms must be worn. Firefighters are advised not to do anything to embarrass the Fire Department. This has gone on for several years without any type of issue.

    I can see were drinking in uniform within your coverage area or in and around your apparatus can be an issue. It leaves too many things open for interpretation.
    Last edited by FDAIC485; 03-14-2009 at 01:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefuss View Post
    But if your not wearing your uniform at the bar, how are all the hot girls supposed to know your a fireman????
    haha like all the other wanna be firemen/paramedic wannabee whackers

    put a boatload of firestickers on your buick and hang a stethoscope from your rearview mirror.

    then when an engine comes code 3 up the street you fail to yield and block its path.

    (this post is soley based on one observation responding to a call yesterday.)

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    Use good judgment and let your conscience be your guide. Don't do anything wearing their shirt that you wouldn't want someone to do wearing one with your name on it.

    fg
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    The guys in Backdraft did it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by firefuss View Post
    But if your not wearing your uniform at the bar, how are all the hot girls supposed to know your a fireman????
    What a stupid, idiotic question.

    They would see his FIRE FIGHTERS HAVE BRASS BALLS t-shirt, silly.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    It's just not smart IMO. Our public image is far too fragile.
    "...When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, Nor will the flame burn you." Isaiah 43:2

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    What a stupid, idiotic question.

    They would see his FIRE FIGHTERS HAVE BRASS BALLS t-shirt, silly.
    No no no George!


    They wear the "coed naked fireman" ......or my most favorite of all time..." I fight what you fear" t-shirt (God I just want to smack the guy who wears this)

    Then you gotta have so much stuff hanging on your belt that you look like a magnet went through an auto parts store!!
    Last edited by Dickey; 03-15-2009 at 01:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bharer75 View Post
    you are representing your department and its workers.. so if you are drinking, basically the whole department is full of drunks...

    thats just how the public sees it...
    The public is smarter than that. Just because one has a couple of beers doesn't make him a drunk.

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