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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by len1582 View Post
    I'll have one hand holding a TIC, the other on the nozzlemans shoulder guiding, directing, and watching out for my crews safety. Unless it's necessary the officer shouldn't be working the nozzle because he should be monitoring conditions, along with the radio, and watching out for his crews safety. Back up guy behind me. I've not found anyone yet who can make a push with a line and look through a hand held TIC at the same time.
    This is my preferred position for a captain, that or on the other side of the nozzle from the nozzleman. Either way, the captain is guiding the crew and watching out for any dangers.

    Love how some people still don't get the 2-in, 2-out rule. Not only is it meant to insure crew integrity (if 2 go in, 2 come out) but it also provides for a RIT team (2 inside the structure, 2 outside ready to intervene).


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by simpleguy68 View Post
    This is my preferred position for a captain, that or on the other side of the nozzle from the nozzleman. Either way, the captain is guiding the crew and watching out for any dangers.

    If your simply stationary and directing a stream in a defensive mode, then I can almost see the rationale for the officer being side by side with the nozzleman on the other side of the nozzle.

    But how can you possibly negotiate a handline with two of you in this position when you are trying to advance a line to the seat of the fire?

    The opening, closing and advancing of the line as you make your push to the seat of the fire requires mobility and help from BEHIND the nozzleman to help advance the line and to counteract the nozzle reaction.

    If you are in this position as the officer, you are in the way.

    The nozzleman does not need this type of micromanagement to advance the line. What he needs is for someone to help him advance the line and SOMEONE ELSE to monitor conditions overhead and behind as well as monitor important radio transmissions relevant to fire and building conditions that are impossible to see from the vantage point of the nozzleman.

    I realize that im most fire departments, more needs to be done with less.

    But if you HAVE an engine officer, the last place he needs to be is directly beside the nozzleman.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    If your simply stationary and directing a stream in a defensive mode, then I can almost see the rationale for the officer being side by side with the nozzleman on the other side of the nozzle.

    But how can you possibly negotiate a handline with two of you in this position when you are trying to advance a line to the seat of the fire?

    The opening, closing and advancing of the line as you make your push to the seat of the fire requires mobility and help from BEHIND the nozzleman to help advance the line and to counteract the nozzle reaction.

    If you are in this position as the officer, you are in the way.

    The nozzleman does not need this type of micromanagement to advance the line. What he needs is for someone to help him advance the line and SOMEONE ELSE to monitor conditions overhead and behind as well as monitor important radio transmissions relevant to fire and building conditions that are impossible to see from the vantage point of the nozzleman.

    I realize that im most fire departments, more needs to be done with less.

    But if you HAVE an engine officer, the last place he needs to be is directly beside the nozzleman.
    My assumption was that there would be three on the line, the nozzleman, his backup, and then the officer. The officer is not there to micromanage, but there to monitor the TIC and look out for other dangers. If the officer is behind helping advance the line, he/she can't do this. Also, it's harder to direct someone from behind than from beside. For instance, if the officer sees something on the TIC, he/she can easily relay this to the nozzleman.

    Your post has me slightly confused, for in a prior post you argued against having the officer backup the nozzleman, now you're saying he should help advance the hose. Which is it? If he's not beside the nozzleman, where would you have him be, third on the line?
    Last edited by simpleguy68; 03-24-2009 at 11:38 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by simpleguy68 View Post
    My assumption was that there would be three on the line, the nozzleman, his backup, and then the officer. The officer is not there to micromanage, but there to monitor the TIC and look out for other dangers. If the officer is behind helping advance the line, he/she can't do this. Also, it's harder to direct someone from behind than from beside. For instance, if the officer sees something on the TIC, he/she can easily relay this to the nozzleman.

    Your post has me slightly confused, for in a prior post you argued against having the officer backup the nozzleman, now you're saying he should help advance the hose. Which is it? If he's not beside the nozzleman, where would you have him be, third on the line?
    I don't think the officer should be touching the hose if you have adequate engine staffing. Obviously this isn't always the case. If it is only him and the nozzleman, you have to do what you have to do, but in that scenario his effectiveness as an officer is greatly diminished.

    But IF you have a nozzleman AND a backup man, as you stated in your example, the officer should be behind both of them monitoring the advance of the line as well as radio transmissions, conditions overhead and behind the nozzle team. He should also be mobile to be able to communicate with personell going above the fire and to monitor conditions of the entire stretch and advance of the line, not just simply the application of water.

    There should be very little space between the nozzleman and his backup man. Otherwise, you aren't "backing him up". It is not necessary to be on top of the nozzleman to effectively use a TIC. This can be achieved from a distance that does not give you tunnel vision.

    The nozzleman and the officer side by side make advancing down a hallway or through doorways difficult and cumbersome with no real benefit.

  5. #25
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    Ah, I think we're getting on the same page now. I'm not advocating the officer be next to the nozzleman at all times (especially when navigating a narrow hallway), but when practical. I personally don't like being so far back on the line because I don't feel you're close enough to react quickly should something go wrong. Plus, IMHO, the TIC should be guiding your team in, which, again IMHO, can't be done from the rear.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Im not sure if it was your intention or its just the way the sentence was worded and me having a really really long day, but it seems to imply that the FDNY has the B/U position as the officers position. The bosses dont have a position on the line here.

    If I have the backup, and the boss tries to come between me and the nozzleman....hes going to have sore shins.
    I needed to make that a seperate paragraph before stating the FDNY manuels, my bad
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

  7. #27
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    We never have 3 on a line. If there is an officer or BU man, he should be at the last door or corner I went around, feeding line. That's not what the rules say or any manual, but that's what happens. I agree however that the last place would be tied to the or near the nozzle. He can't function well there.

  8. #28
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    We had a four man team. Two on the line, officer and 3rd guy searching off the line and helping the push (venting as they go and doing a primary search).

    Truck company operations (even though we have an aerial) are done by the engines as the truck rolls after the engines to most of our fires (all coming out of one house).
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  9. #29
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    Default Captain's spot

    On a 2 or 3 person interior attack team, our Captain goes 2nd behind the nozzle person. This is so he/she can see what is going on and direct the attack. We like the more junior FF to be on the nozzle where the Captain can guide him/her. If there is a 3rd on tha attack team, he/she will be at the door to control the stretch and chase kinks if needed. From a Truck point of view with a 3 person crew, the Captain goes interior w/ one other FF and the 3rd FF is utilities and OVM. If we choose to go for vertical ventilation, the Captain is 2nd on the roof with another FF, while the 3rd member controls the ground ladder, operates the apparatus, or goes for utilities. Situation dictates when running with minumum and/or below minumum standards. When the companies were fully staffed, we had the luxury of assigning different duties to different teams of members on the same apparatus. But, now with minimum or less staffing we have to collectively chose which task we are all going to attack together. With a 3 man Engine, a back up line is not an option unless if or until another company arrives. With a 3 man Truck, we cannot split into vent and interior teams. we either all go to the roof and foresake searching or we all go interior and foresake ventilation. We have to make choices and our hands are really tied.

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    Underneith their white helmet!

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