Closed Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
  1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    idaho falls
    Posts
    52

    Default Where does the captain go?

    I have always thought that on a 3 man interior attack entry team the Captain goes 3rd on the line One man is the Nozzle and shouldnt be doing as much work handling the hose as the 2nd guy really taking the weight of the hose while the captain is 3rd. I have always heard it as the standard way. The department chief Im currently with said I dont care how everyone else does it captain is the 2nd guy backing up the nozzle so he can see whats going on. I havent seen many who agree but we do what the boss says. I was just curious if anyone else sees it this way. Am I missing some advantages?

  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ffmedcbk1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    781

    Default

    We have the crew boss go second on the line due to the need for watching the team during the attack. If there are 3 ff's and the lt/capt, he will assume a side (hands off) position. It is rare that we have the 3 ff's on the line however.

    There are no hard and fast rules about it.

    It is a crime for the nozzle position to be the senior man (IMO). This is b/c the stream is the concern for the nozzleman and the 2nd position (or boss' position) is to oversee, direct the team, radio reports, and general crew accountability. The FDNY manuals are good source for info and teaching on the subject (that is not a statement of "worship")

    As always, what is best for yours and my departments may vary.
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,686

    Default

    Our Captain stays near the line but not on it. He oversees and directs the operation, monitors the progress, and reports that to IC. Nozzleman and backup handle the line.

    Most times, 3 guys on a 1 3/4" line, all bunched up together, is a waste of manpower in my opinion.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,526

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Our Captain stays near the line but not on it. He oversees and directs the operation, monitors the progress, and reports that to IC. Nozzleman and backup handle the line.

    Most times, 3 guys on a 1 3/4" line, all bunched up together, is a waste of manpower in my opinion.
    What he said.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Valley of Death, CA
    Posts
    151

    Default

    I've got plenty to do without being on the hose. Being on the hose is the best job in the fire service, truckies can disagree, but let the FF's have the hose. When you move to the front right seat you have to give up your place on the hose.

  6. #6
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    113

    Default

    Our station officers are genrally outside or near the door wearing a pretty looking IC vest

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    PNEFD23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    48

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Our Captain stays near the line but not on it. He oversees and directs the operation, monitors the progress, and reports that to IC. Nozzleman and backup handle the line.

    Most times, 3 guys on a 1 3/4" line, all bunched up together, is a waste of manpower in my opinion.
    Same here.

  8. #8
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    idaho falls
    Posts
    52

    Default 2 guys a capt. and a hydrant man

    Usually we always have a guy catching the hydrant so we have 3 total I think its a great idea to have the captain off the hose. when avaible to be off the hose but in the case of 3 guys making the interior attack would the captain be humping the hose around the corners or up stairs? while two guys are on the line or would he be backing up the nozzle man. In my opinion the guy backing up the nozzle man should be putting alot into backing up. so can the captain concentrate if hes number 2?

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Valley of Death, CA
    Posts
    151

    Default

    BlueMtns: I hate to say this but your company officers need to learn how to be leaders, not managers. Leaders they lead, managers....well they are supposed to manage, but they usually are busy mucking things up for us trying to get stuff done.
    ash: I hear you, I will help my nozzleman (woman) with the hose until the person on the hydrant gets masked up if we only have 3 on the engine that day, but I had to give up my position on the hose when I moved to the front right seat. Because my most important job now is looking out for my FF's.
    Last edited by DeathValleyCap; 03-17-2009 at 09:58 AM. Reason: correct spelling

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    bharer75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    West Coast Pride!
    Posts
    352

    Default

    wait.. how does having 3 men on a nozzle comply with the 2 in 2 out rule?

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,802

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bharer75 View Post
    wait.. how does having 3 men on a nozzle comply with the 2 in 2 out rule?

    ugh, does anyone actually research 2 in 2 out, or do they just hear the name and assume what the regulation means?


    our bosses are usually on the line aren't "tied" to it like the firefighters. They assist when they can and do boss things the rest of the time.

  12. #12
    Banned

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bharer75 View Post
    wait.. how does having 3 men on a nozzle comply with the 2 in 2 out rule?
    2 in 2 out means there needs to be at least 2 out.

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    134

    Default Where does the captain go?

    In a glass, preferably with ice and your favorite cola product!

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Upstate (Albany area), NY
    Posts
    422

    Default

    CHAOS - Captain Has Another Outstanding Suggestion.

    That said, IMHO, the company officer (captain or lieutenant) shouldn't be tied-down by having to be one of the jakes humping hose. You really can't see the true effects of your stream from behind the nozle; you need to get off to one side or the other. This also facilitates the officer "jumping in" if a victim is located or if someone gets hurt.
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."

    George S. Patton

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    bharer75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    West Coast Pride!
    Posts
    352

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    2 in 2 out means there needs to be at least 2 out.
    thanks. but I was thinking more of a 4 man engine first on scene with just the engineer outside. this wouldnt really happen with the 3 engine, 1 truck, and B.C response but it could if the engine was in its own station and the other responding units had the engines first in as a second or third due.

  16. #16
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,802

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    2 in 2 out means there needs to be at least 2 out.


    there is more to it than just that. 2 in 2 out also stipulates that people entering the an IDLH environment must be in teams of 2 or more and maintain at least voice contact.

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    len1582's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    N.J.
    Posts
    1,392

    Default

    I'll have one hand holding a TIC, the other on the nozzlemans shoulder guiding, directing, and watching out for my crews safety. Unless it's necessary the officer shouldn't be working the nozzle because he should be monitoring conditions, along with the radio, and watching out for his crews safety. Back up guy behind me. I've not found anyone yet who can make a push with a line and look through a hand held TIC at the same time.

  18. #18
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    14

    Default

    Sometimes when things are just perfect I have the nozzleman, his back up and then me behind/beside him watching how the fire is reacting to the water and making sure there is nothing in the bigger picture that they are not focused on that could hurt us. If it is a long lay hopefully you would get a 4th guy to push house around corners and up stairs, if I didn't have that 4th I would back up and have the 3rd hump hose.

  19. #19
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,372

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1 View Post
    We have the crew boss go second on the line due to the need for watching the team during the attack. If there are 3 ff's and the lt/capt, he will assume a side (hands off) position. It is rare that we have the 3 ff's on the line however.

    There are no hard and fast rules about it.

    It is a crime for the nozzle position to be the senior man (IMO). This is b/c the stream is the concern for the nozzleman and the 2nd position (or boss' position) is to oversee, direct the team, radio reports, and general crew accountability. The FDNY manuals are good source for info and teaching on the subject (that is not a statement of "worship")

    As always, what is best for yours and my departments may vary.

    Far be it from me to tell you how to operate....but a few thoughts come to mind concerning the officer backing up the nozzleman.

    How can the officer do an adequate job of "providing radio reports, directing the team and accounting for the crew" if he is also tasked with backing up the nozzleman?

    The backup position is not something that should be taken for granted or taken lightly. When done correctly, this position can make all the difference in the world for a successful advance under difficult conditions. As the backup man, your eyes should be in front and you should be accutely aware of every move the nozzleman is making. Otherwise, you are nothing more than just another body on the line.

    You can be a good backup man and be a good officer. But there is no way you are good at both simultaneuosly.

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,578

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1 View Post
    We have the crew boss go second on the line due to the need for watching the team during the attack. If there are 3 ff's and the lt/capt, he will assume a side (hands off) position. It is rare that we have the 3 ff's on the line however.

    There are no hard and fast rules about it.

    It is a crime for the nozzle position to be the senior man (IMO). This is b/c the stream is the concern for the nozzleman and the 2nd position (or boss' position) is to oversee, direct the team, radio reports, and general crew accountability. The FDNY manuals are good source for info and teaching on the subject (that is not a statement of "worship")

    As always, what is best for yours and my departments may vary.
    Im not sure if it was your intention or its just the way the sentence was worded and me having a really really long day, but it seems to imply that the FDNY has the B/U position as the officers position. The bosses dont have a position on the line here.

    If I have the backup, and the boss tries to come between me and the nozzleman....hes going to have sore shins.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  21. #21
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Cleveland, Texas
    Posts
    284

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by len1582 View Post
    I'll have one hand holding a TIC, the other on the nozzlemans shoulder guiding, directing, and watching out for my crews safety. Unless it's necessary the officer shouldn't be working the nozzle because he should be monitoring conditions, along with the radio, and watching out for his crews safety. Back up guy behind me. I've not found anyone yet who can make a push with a line and look through a hand held TIC at the same time.
    This is my preferred position for a captain, that or on the other side of the nozzle from the nozzleman. Either way, the captain is guiding the crew and watching out for any dangers.

    Love how some people still don't get the 2-in, 2-out rule. Not only is it meant to insure crew integrity (if 2 go in, 2 come out) but it also provides for a RIT team (2 inside the structure, 2 outside ready to intervene).

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,372

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simpleguy68 View Post
    This is my preferred position for a captain, that or on the other side of the nozzle from the nozzleman. Either way, the captain is guiding the crew and watching out for any dangers.

    If your simply stationary and directing a stream in a defensive mode, then I can almost see the rationale for the officer being side by side with the nozzleman on the other side of the nozzle.

    But how can you possibly negotiate a handline with two of you in this position when you are trying to advance a line to the seat of the fire?

    The opening, closing and advancing of the line as you make your push to the seat of the fire requires mobility and help from BEHIND the nozzleman to help advance the line and to counteract the nozzle reaction.

    If you are in this position as the officer, you are in the way.

    The nozzleman does not need this type of micromanagement to advance the line. What he needs is for someone to help him advance the line and SOMEONE ELSE to monitor conditions overhead and behind as well as monitor important radio transmissions relevant to fire and building conditions that are impossible to see from the vantage point of the nozzleman.

    I realize that im most fire departments, more needs to be done with less.

    But if you HAVE an engine officer, the last place he needs to be is directly beside the nozzleman.

  23. #23
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Cleveland, Texas
    Posts
    284

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    If your simply stationary and directing a stream in a defensive mode, then I can almost see the rationale for the officer being side by side with the nozzleman on the other side of the nozzle.

    But how can you possibly negotiate a handline with two of you in this position when you are trying to advance a line to the seat of the fire?

    The opening, closing and advancing of the line as you make your push to the seat of the fire requires mobility and help from BEHIND the nozzleman to help advance the line and to counteract the nozzle reaction.

    If you are in this position as the officer, you are in the way.

    The nozzleman does not need this type of micromanagement to advance the line. What he needs is for someone to help him advance the line and SOMEONE ELSE to monitor conditions overhead and behind as well as monitor important radio transmissions relevant to fire and building conditions that are impossible to see from the vantage point of the nozzleman.

    I realize that im most fire departments, more needs to be done with less.

    But if you HAVE an engine officer, the last place he needs to be is directly beside the nozzleman.
    My assumption was that there would be three on the line, the nozzleman, his backup, and then the officer. The officer is not there to micromanage, but there to monitor the TIC and look out for other dangers. If the officer is behind helping advance the line, he/she can't do this. Also, it's harder to direct someone from behind than from beside. For instance, if the officer sees something on the TIC, he/she can easily relay this to the nozzleman.

    Your post has me slightly confused, for in a prior post you argued against having the officer backup the nozzleman, now you're saying he should help advance the hose. Which is it? If he's not beside the nozzleman, where would you have him be, third on the line?
    Last edited by simpleguy68; 03-24-2009 at 11:38 AM.

  24. #24
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,372

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simpleguy68 View Post
    My assumption was that there would be three on the line, the nozzleman, his backup, and then the officer. The officer is not there to micromanage, but there to monitor the TIC and look out for other dangers. If the officer is behind helping advance the line, he/she can't do this. Also, it's harder to direct someone from behind than from beside. For instance, if the officer sees something on the TIC, he/she can easily relay this to the nozzleman.

    Your post has me slightly confused, for in a prior post you argued against having the officer backup the nozzleman, now you're saying he should help advance the hose. Which is it? If he's not beside the nozzleman, where would you have him be, third on the line?
    I don't think the officer should be touching the hose if you have adequate engine staffing. Obviously this isn't always the case. If it is only him and the nozzleman, you have to do what you have to do, but in that scenario his effectiveness as an officer is greatly diminished.

    But IF you have a nozzleman AND a backup man, as you stated in your example, the officer should be behind both of them monitoring the advance of the line as well as radio transmissions, conditions overhead and behind the nozzle team. He should also be mobile to be able to communicate with personell going above the fire and to monitor conditions of the entire stretch and advance of the line, not just simply the application of water.

    There should be very little space between the nozzleman and his backup man. Otherwise, you aren't "backing him up". It is not necessary to be on top of the nozzleman to effectively use a TIC. This can be achieved from a distance that does not give you tunnel vision.

    The nozzleman and the officer side by side make advancing down a hallway or through doorways difficult and cumbersome with no real benefit.

  25. #25
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Cleveland, Texas
    Posts
    284

    Default

    Ah, I think we're getting on the same page now. I'm not advocating the officer be next to the nozzleman at all times (especially when navigating a narrow hallway), but when practical. I personally don't like being so far back on the line because I don't feel you're close enough to react quickly should something go wrong. Plus, IMHO, the TIC should be guiding your team in, which, again IMHO, can't be done from the rear.

Closed Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Hello from a Lady Captain...
    By ladycaptain in forum Meet and Greet
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 03-21-2008, 03:26 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register