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Thread: 2010 engines

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    Post 2010 engines

    New to this forum stuff, so dont beat me up. I am curious as to how many departments are going to move up their potential apparatus purchase to this year because of the pending engine compliancy. It appears from our research that some of the dynamics of apparatus will change next year relative to the new requirements.

    We are going to replace a pumper in our station.

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    You missed the boat unfortunately. The changes took effect Jan 1, 2009. These additions are including, but not limited to, VDR (Vehicle Data Recorder), Positive helmet restraints, Seat belt sensors, and Chevron Stripes on the rear (Red and Yellow/Fl. Yellow/Fl. Green). There are a number of smaller nuances, but these are the big ticket items. NFPA revised for the year of 2009. Good luck on your purchase. =)

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    JrzyFire is correct. But, there are more issues coming down the pipes for 2010. They mostly involve the motor in your apparatus, which of course adds extra cost. Most manufacturers have info on their website regarding the changes. We decided to move on a new piece of apparatus before the changes in 2010. My personal opinion is that you don't want to be involved in the first year of urea injection motors in fire apparatus. Hope this helps you and your department.

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    We are moving up our engine purschase by a year to avoid the 2010 motor change, because we don't want to have the headache of a new motor and all the problems usally go along with it. We have been told the new engine will add 5000 to 7000 to the price of the truck. I was told by our pierce rep that they was going to buy a large amount of 09 engines to carry them for a ways into 2010. With that being said when they are gone they are gone. I would guess that the other large companys are doing the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COFF26 View Post
    JrzyFire is correct. But, there are more issues coming down the pipes for 2010. They mostly involve the motor in your apparatus, which of course adds extra cost. Most manufacturers have info on their website regarding the changes. We decided to move on a new piece of apparatus before the changes in 2010. My personal opinion is that you don't want to be involved in the first year of urea injection motors in fire apparatus. Hope this helps you and your department.
    Or avoid Urea entirely. At this point means IH engine.

    Urea has some very significant unresolved "issues" for the commerical truck industry. Even more critical for a truck that may be in use for the next 30years (issues that are totally unaddressed). Considerable concern that Urea may be a short term/temporary solution to the EPA wackos newest dictates.

    Not even established where one buys Urea on Jan 1, 2010. What it will cost or how will be dispensed (jugs, pails, barrels or bulk/pumps)? The stuff freezes at 32F so must have urea tank heater. Can't allow vaporize so need a tank cooler. What happens to your fire truck if you run out of urea while pumping a fire? Shut down or limp home is not an option but will you blow up your engine if urea runs dry?

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    Neiowa,it's post engine treatment so NO it won't blow the engine if you run out,however:Take me drinking,you'll have plenty. Over time will contribute to pi** poor performance,hehe T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 04-28-2009 at 09:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Neiowa,it's post engine treatment so NO it won't blow the engine if you run out,however:Take me drinking,you'll have plenty. Over time will contribute to pi** poor performance,hehe T.C.

    Might be an option. If urea tank runs dry on the fire ground everyone lines up to refill it. Make sure you spec the urea tank no more than 18" from the ground. Might have to stock adult beverages in the rehab cooler.

    Diesel industry can't answer (that I've found) what SCR system will do when urea tank runs dry. Serious concern in the truck industry. Critial to the fire truck. IH avoids the entire issue by using EGR rather than SCR/urea (hats off to them).

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    I'm a fan of IH, so don't take this as an attack on their product.

    My understanding from the IH guy I last spoke to was that even their new technology, without urea, was not "clean" enough to meet the 2010 standards as it now stands. They will be utilizing "pollution credits" to get them through the first year of production, after which they hope to have it clean enough running to not need the credits.

    Anyone know if this is the case? Again, I'm looking forward to being able to sell the IH in Spartan chassis when they become available. Competition for that aspect can only be beneficial for the end user, instead of only having one engine choice.

    I'm very concerned about the urea system issues. What a nightmare.
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801 View Post
    I'm a fan of IH, so don't take this as an attack on their product.

    My understanding from the IH guy I last spoke to was that even their new technology, without urea, was not "clean" enough to meet the 2010 standards as it now stands. They will be utilizing "pollution credits" to get them through the first year of production, after which they hope to have it clean enough running to not need the credits.

    Anyone know if this is the case? Again, I'm looking forward to being able to sell the IH in Spartan chassis when they become available. Competition for that aspect can only be beneficial for the end user, instead of only having one engine choice.

    I'm very concerned about the urea system issues. What a nightmare.
    From what I've read in various trucking industry trade publications, your understanding of IH engines is correct.

    For those of you that are expressing concerns about the availabilty of urea, it will be available. Several truck stop chains have made announcements of their intent to carry it. Indications are that it will be available in various on-the-shelf containers as well as in 55 gallon drums and IBCs. I believe that some may even have pumps at fuel islands.

    Since truck stops will have it, I would expect that outlets such as oil distributors/jobbers may also have it. That remains to be seen.

    Protection from freezing will be necessary.

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    You missed the boat unfortunately. The changes took effect Jan 1, 2009. These additions are including, but not limited to, VDR (Vehicle Data Recorder), Positive helmet restraints, Seat belt sensors, and Chevron Stripes on the rear (Red and Yellow/Fl. Yellow/Fl. Green). There are a number of smaller nuances, but these are the big ticket items. NFPA revised for the year of 2009. Good luck on your purchase. =)
    I appears you missed the question. The question is about engine changes not NFPA changes as you've mentioned.

    For those of you that are expressing concerns about the availabilty of urea, it will be available. Several truck stop chains have made announcements of their intent to carry it. Indications are that it will be available in various on-the-shelf containers as well as in 55 gallon drums and IBCs. I believe that some may even have pumps at fuel islands.
    http://www.detroitdiesel.com/emissio...ilability.aspx

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    We have been told the same thing about the IH engines that they are close but not quite there yet. We was also told that they are going to use up their credits while they get it figured out. I was also told by a detroit man that he don't think that IH will be able to do it. Only time will tell.

    What will the cost increase be for IH with the route they have taken to meet the new standard?

    Did anyone hear that IH had bought part of CATS over the road motor program. I heard that at one time, but haven't heard anything else about it.

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    Talking Urea

    I also heard the same story on IH engines. Living on pollution credits, hoping they can further reduce emmissions by next year so they don't have to go to a urea injection system.
    Who would have ever thunk, that cow p*ss would help clean up the enviroment.

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    CE11,I will stock a limited supply.No danger of freezing as it will be tank ready at 98.6F. Who's the flaming a****** in the EPA that thought this was a GOOD idea? Let's start with the OTR market,when your groceries don't get to market because of all the problems maybe the morons will rethink the issue. Better pollution solution: Do the big shipments by Choo Choo.Peddle off the Choo Choo just like REA did in the early years, Less pollution,more jobs. Damn,I should be a economy engineer. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 04-29-2009 at 02:42 PM.

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    1524,It IS true that Cat and Navistar have entered in a joint venture to produce several engine platforms including a 15 liter aimed at the Fire service market among others. T.C.

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    Thanks to everyone for their input. I have waited to get back on, for I was able to make a trip to Indy. I apologize for not clarifing in my initial post that my main concern was with the engine compliancy only, being fully cognizant of the rest of the 2009 NFPA requirements.

    I can concur that the dialogue thus far has been dead on. I have left there with mixed thoughts as to what the direction should be. It appears that all of the OEM's battle the same issue when it comes to real estate with the addition of the extra components required. Of course if we choose to go with Pierce or Ferrara and the new fangled configurations, I wonder if this will be another battle ground to address.

    Anyway, the conversation now between the rank and file is whether to just sit it out and make due to see what happens after 2010, or possibly look a the refurb scenario. Our re-con in Indy also showed us a high level of interest in re-manned engines, transmissions etc.

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    My understanding on the IH/CAT venture is that IH will be producing some off highway and vocational severe duty on highway trucks. They will be branded Caterpillar, sold and serviced through CAT's dealer network. I think that the original deal was that they would be primarily for export, but now it appears that they will be available in North America. The 15 L. engine is supposed to be the block components from the C15, with the top end being from IH. How much, if any M A N influence will be there is unknown. The trucks are supposedly going to be produced in Garland, Tex. which I think is a plant that IH got after Marmon shut down.

    No doubt someone out there has more detailed info, so please chime in.

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    http://www.navistar.com/portal/site/...00e5c9a8c0RCRD

    At IH web site in 2010 tab. Q/A addresses "credits"

    Q: Will in-cylinder systems be 2010 compliant?

    A: All MaxxForce engines will be compliant for 2010, just as they are today. If they weren’t, we couldn’t sell them. Some Navistar engines are currently below 2007 NOx levels, as the EPA encourages and rewards this. As a result, we will be able to phase into 2010 emissions regulations with in-cylinder technology because our engines are cleaner, earlier than required. Customers benefit through the longer and smoother transition.

    Q: What are the new 2010 EPA emissions requirements?

    A: In 2010, the EPA is requiring new vehicles to achieve a new diesel exhaust emissions regulations limit, which is .2 NOx (g/hp-hr) down from 1.2 in 2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Car1Vol View Post
    ... I am curious as to how many departments are going to move up their potential apparatus purchase to this year because of the pending engine compliancy...
    Trying our most.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    In under the wire BEFORE they hung all that garbage on them. T.C.

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    I haven't been keeping up on engine tech lately, mainly because it is just so much BS that I have better to things to get annoyed with. But this thread caught my attention.

    ARE YOU SERIOUS! Urine injection for emissions? C'mon.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    The PC NAME is Urea. Backtrace it and let me know how you make out.I know I'm in the wrong business,hehe T.C.

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    Default Diesel Exhaust Fluids

    Even though we are tossing around the term urea for what will be used in 2010 engines what we will really be using is a Diesel Exhaust Fluid which is made from urea, demineralized water and some other products with long names and longer chemical equations. The use of demineralized water in the "DEF" is one of the reasons it freezes at 11 degrees. Urea, is used in a lot of other products the largest being fertilizers used in farming. The urea used in the DEF just like the urea used for fertilizers is a synthetic product, not urine. It is shipped in a dry powder or pellet form and then mixed with the demineralized water. I have read that once mixed into the DEF product it has a shelf life of a year or so. Plans are now for it to be sold in 1, 5 and 20 gallon containers as well as from pumps at the larger truck fuel stops. 20 gallons, about the size of the tank trucks will have installed on them should last 4,000 to 6,000 miles.

    As much as we would like to pee in the tank, for what ever reason, it will do more harm than good long term. Yes you will have that instant feeling of relief from emptying your bladder but will be spending big money down the road to repair the system. Plus, if you could just pee in the tank how would Uncle tax us for it. (I know what you are thinking Rescue101, don't say it!)

    One aspect of trucks using urea that has not been discussed much yet is the effect this will have on our food prices. Just like the big push to use ethanol in gas and the ramifications that had on farming, food supply and prices as more trucks that use area are put on the road the price of urea will be driven up and supplies for it's use in fertilizer driven down. This wonderful idea is causing the price of trucks to increase, higher maintenance costs, added cost keeping the DEF tank full and then higher food costs. You have to love the greenies.

    Some photos of a fuel stop in Europe and what we will see at our fuel stops soon.
    Attached Images Attached Images    

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    Is that anything like headlight fluid? In either case,finding either in the NE is going to be a bit of a challenge. Another "You've got to do it,oh s**t we're not ready"by your friends in Big business and Government. Sorry,it's a crock of dung,processed or otherwise. Like the infamous gas additive that was polluting wells in Maine. It's time for a revelation then a revolution. Oh well,off to sell some Urea,hehe T.c.

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    I did some backtracking but couldn't find anything indicating it was synthetic. Thats good to know but still annoying none the less.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Default I have your headlight fluid

    Tim, if you need headlight fluid I have some I'll let you have for a fair price. Have it in both 10 and 30 weight? I can get you as much as you want for $32.50 a gallon, 4 gallons to a case. I'll deliver it free if you buy 2 or more cases.

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