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    Default Ventilation techniques

    Putting this in here since no one reads the tactics section.

    3 am. Smoke seeping out from behind the roll down gates of the store. There is also a haze throughout the building, and especially the 2nd floor above the store. With the exception of the storefront windows on the 1 and 2 corners (front of the building is to the right of the store), all previous store openings are bricked up. The roll down gates get cut, and there is evidence of a possible backdraft ready to occur. Now what???



    P.S. Sorry about the crappy photo, im not exactly a computer whiz.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 03-27-2009 at 04:16 PM.
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    Default Ventilation techniques (merged thread)

    A little help for nyckftbl,
    bcarey


    Putting this in here since no one reads the tactics section.

    3 am. Smoke seeping out from behind the roll down gates of the store. There is also a haze throughout the building, and especially the 2nd floor above the store. With the exception of the storefront windows on the 1 and 2 corners (front of the building is to the right of the store), all previous store openings are bricked up. The roll down gates get cut, and there is evidence of a possible backdraft ready to occur. Now what???


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    well you already know that above has a good smoke condition, so that probably also means you searched it and everyone is out. I would tell 2nd due truck about the conditions below and to get out to the hallway or to check adjacent asafp. Get first due engine ready with water right away, but usually if the gates are forced they are ready anyway. I would hope that the chief would minimize exposure of the members and just have first due company's out in front with full ppe, down low. Camera could tell you a lot once that front door is opened, but then you would probably already have your backdraft, so make sure the line is opened as soon as you open it.

    too many what if's. main thing is keeping everyone glass and burn free!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyirons2 View Post
    well you already know that above has a good smoke condition, so that probably also means you searched it and everyone is out. I would tell 2nd due truck about the conditions below and to get out to the hallway or to check adjacent asafp. Get first due engine ready with water right away, but usually if the gates are forced they are ready anyway. I would hope that the chief would minimize exposure of the members and just have first due company's out in front with full ppe, down low. Camera could tell you a lot once that front door is opened, but then you would probably already have your backdraft, so make sure the line is opened as soon as you open it.

    too many what if's. main thing is keeping everyone glass and burn free!

    Not sure if you heard about the backdraft we had, at this building actually, about 2 months ago. The scenario was a bit different....there were no imminent signs until 2 or 3 seconds before it blew. One of the chauffeurs took the roll down gate locks, and as soon as the roll down gates went up, within about 5 seconds it blew. No one had taken any windows, nothing had happened. Odd, to say the least. I changed the scenario a bit for this thread, just to talk about vent techniques alittle more.


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    Didnt it melt the rig? Was it a smoke explosion? Maybe the roll downs jolted the doors just enough to let a little air in. Was it that building? It was on Nelson right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyirons2 View Post
    Didnt it melt the rig? Was it a smoke explosion? Maybe the roll downs jolted the doors just enough to let a little air in. Was it that building? It was on Nelson right?
    Nah this was Gerard. Near the Stadium.

    It was a smoke explosion...the rigs were all far enough away...but we all got very lucky that night. Plenty of large projectiles from the store blew a good 30 or 40 feet out of the building, but they all missed us. The chauffuer of 49 was on the pedestal about 25 feet away and said he felt the concussion and almost got knocked off the rig. We were right in front, about 7 or 8 feet from the windows, and it was like the end of the world for about 10 seconds.

    Im guessing the roll downs must have shook something loose....either one of the doors, or maybe a crack that had developed in the storefront window.
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    Quote Originally Posted by webteam View Post
    A little help for nyckftbl,
    bcarey


    Putting this in here since no one reads the tactics section.

    3 am. Smoke seeping out from behind the roll down gates of the store. There is also a haze throughout the building, and especially the 2nd floor above the store. With the exception of the storefront windows on the 1 and 2 corners (front of the building is to the right of the store), all previous store openings are bricked up. The roll down gates get cut, and there is evidence of a possible backdraft ready to occur. Now what???


    As stated 1st due truck probably has laddered the building and searched so I would order crew into hallway or maybe even near the fire escape or laddered windows so if conditions deteriorate quickly they can get out. Once gates are cut I would open up the windows on both sides starting with the ones furthest from the door using the building to shield the crew to an extent. I would also have positioned a charged 2 1/2 at each vent area again using the building to shield the crews. If indeed a backdraft happens it should occur quickly once these first windows are taken and O2 is introduced, thereby blowing out the remaining window and door glass. If not truck crew can continue to open up the store front and the lines can be repositioned to make entry immediately through the front door. Placing crews to vent those side windows first as well as positioning the rigs similarly will offer the best protection to the personnel as possible. Once vented and the backdraft occurs begin fire attack thru the the vented areas darkening the fire down enough to make entry. Also stretch at least one line to the second floor to check for and extinguish any extension.

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    If it is showing signs of a backdraft, I like the idea of taking the two outer windows first. The guy is protected by the building some what, and you can have the engine lob water into now broken window from a safer distance. That seems like the best option.

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    Many of these places have the front windows covered by beverage coolers and the register is always up front and depending on the neighborhood, cover in plexi. It really is our only option to take the windows from the side, but if it is not pushing brown smoke how will you know? The TIC wont work through the glass so as usual we are at the mercy of some higher power.

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    Hmmm.....

    Nice picture and scenario set up....what is the software?

    ------------

    Ok....understand that I don't have much experience working something like this but this is what I would do......

    I would first make sure the entire building is evacuated. Then, I assume vertical ventilation is not an option, to cut a hole in the floor above the fire and coordinate that with the first in attack crew to take care of the backdraft situation. I also assume there is no back way into the store through the building. I think that would almost be ideal because you can vent the store front at the same time attack the fire and push it all out the front.

    So....plan B would be to vent the side windows at the same time the attack crew goes in the front door. How would FDNY hit that?
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    I think that the photo is from Google maps on Google earth. I have some pictures that look like that of neighboring towns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zackman1801 View Post
    I think that the photo is from Google maps on Google earth. I have some pictures that look like that of neighboring towns.
    Ah, didn't think of that. It does look like that's the case, thanks!
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    If you really think it's a backdraft situation, you're screwed.

    Force roll up doors up and secure (don't cut a V as it won't allow sufficient ventilation)

    Have 1 large stream (2.5") position outside of blast area or collapse zone

    1 member with long pike ready to make small hole in window (probably wind up making big hole, but try it). He should stand off to the side of the window next to the masonry wall.

    Once line is bled, signal pike man to smash and open nozzle into space.

    Indirect attack is really the only option here.

    Also have other lines positioned for floor above and evacuate rest of building.

    Could be a fun fire.
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    probably call a 2nd alarm, advise incoming companies of conditions, search and rescue all floors, whats the heat condition on the 2nd floor? report from the roof? 2.5 lines to the 1 and 2 side and the floor above until searches are done, breech the openings that have been bricked up and try to vent that way.

    also i would consider fire being in the basement, and look for ways to get there, service elevators, doors etc..

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeatherHed4Life View Post
    also i would consider fire being in the basement, and look for ways to get there, service elevators, doors etc..
    Great points.

    Look for street access to the basement. If it's in there, lots of fun for everyone!
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    Don't most of the buildings in NY have vertical shafts and stairway openings that the roofman goes to and opens to initiate ventilation? Wouldnt this be a starting point if it were the case?

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    Maybe you could cut a hole in the roll up door just big enough to get the tip of the nozzle in there (small triangle). Then operate the line long enough to cool it down a bit before opening her up. It may just be enough to keep the backdraft from happening.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

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    I'd make an attempt at getting the 2nd floor windows out in the off chance that the first floor store front and 2nd floor are connected by internal stairs. Failing that I think you need to get the front open, move lines off to the side and get ready for it to blow. I'd make the openings large, get the gates all the way up and take the large windows and be ready with at least 1 2 1/2" line. Once open, watch what happens, stay out of the way operate the lines from a flank position and let the fire do what it wants. When fire conditions stabilize or the smoke lifts you can make the determination of whether the first floor fight is going interior or exterior. Good scenario.

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    Roll up gates here are a good mix between ones you can see thorugh and ones you can not. Most buildings here will not have interior access from the store to the public hallway, you may have basement access and usually rear access is a window or it is bricked up and it will not do much anyway as it will have bars. The way this box came in was probably 3 4 in the morning so the place was closed for a few hours and it was just smoldering. It is surprising they did not get 100 calls for odor of smoke before it got to the point it did. Gerard ave is not really what you would call an 'up and coming' neighborhood lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyirons2 View Post
    Roll up gates here are a good mix between ones you can see thorugh and ones you can not. Most buildings here will not have interior access from the store to the public hallway, you may have basement access and usually rear access is a window or it is bricked up and it will not do much anyway as it will have bars. The way this box came in was probably 3 4 in the morning so the place was closed for a few hours and it was just smoldering. It is surprising they did not get 100 calls for odor of smoke before it got to the point it did. Gerard ave is not really what you would call an 'up and coming' neighborhood lol
    So how did the job go in Cupcake, NY?

    This would be a fire so foreign for me out here in the burbs, I'm curious to know how it went, etc...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    So how did the job go in Cupcake, NY?

    This would be a fire so foreign for me out here in the burbs, I'm curious to know how it went, etc...
    In the real life version, the scenario was a bit different. It wasnt clear at first where the fire was, as the original calls stated fire on 2nd floor. Hardly any smoke pushing from anywhere, but enough of a haze throughout the building to know that we had a job. Checked the roll down gates with a camera and our hands, no heat at all. Initial line got stretched to the 2nd floor, found heavy smoke and alittle heat, but no fire. Roll down gates got cut, and as soon as they were rolled up, the store backdrafted. No windows had been taken, and at the time, there were no clear indications that it would occur. (Looking back in hindsight, there was evidence, but it was only 2 or 3 seconds before it blew).

    We were very lucky that morning....Everyone was able to pick themselves up off the street, and made a push with 2 2 1/2" lines through the store, one through the front door, and one on the 2 side through where the storefront windows used to be. The fire eventually extended to the 2nd floor and also dropped down into the basement alittle as well.


    Don't most of the buildings in NY have vertical shafts and stairway openings that the roofman goes to and opens to initiate ventilation? Wouldnt this be a starting point if it were the case?
    The roofman always takes that bulkhead, to vent the staircases. However, in a building like this, the storefront most often has only the front entrance, seperate from the rest of the building, with no connections to the interior stairs or lobby. Venting the stairs is always a priority, but in this case, it wouldnt have helped (or I should say didnt help) prevent a backdraft, as you arent venting the store at all.

    This store also had bricked up old window spaces on the 1 side A wing (you can see them near the middle of the actual building, near the entrance to the tenament itself). Eventually these were taken as well, as the fire in the store was very deep seated in the rear, near those bricked up spots.



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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyirons2 View Post
    Roll up gates here are a good mix between ones you can see thorugh and ones you can not. Most buildings here will not have interior access from the store to the public hallway, you may have basement access and usually rear access is a window or it is bricked up and it will not do much anyway as it will have bars. The way this box came in was probably 3 4 in the morning so the place was closed for a few hours and it was just smoldering. It is surprising they did not get 100 calls for odor of smoke before it got to the point it did. Gerard ave is not really what you would call an 'up and coming' neighborhood lol
    I think the run came in at 335.

    And yeah, we've been on that block a few times.
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    http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...cal&id=6632686

    This was the original report....ignore the "crane" comment, you can can a few decent shots of the building to get a better idea of the layout and such.





    BTW, not to hijack my own thread.....but the woman from the news is much hotter in real life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    This was the original report....ignore the "crane" comment, you can can a few decent shots of the building to get a better idea of the layout and such.

    BTW, not to hijack my own thread.....but the woman from the news is much hotter in real life.
    What local are the crane operators members of?



    Thanks
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    I find it incredibly disturbing that this thread only has 15 replies..... 4 of which from me, and 1 from another member who operates at these types of fires on a semiregular basis. Meanwhile....a thread 2nd guessing the actions of 2 chauffuers who had an accident has gone to 4 pages (a record low # of posts for those types of threads). Where are all the posters who love to complain about not being able to learn anything from accidents? How about learning something before something goes wrong? Or is the lack of participation in this thread simply proof that most of the posters here are just looking to stir the pot and say things they wouldnt say without the safety of the anonymous screenname....

    Or maybe some of you are afraid to speak because you fear you lack the experience to discuss this? I started this thread, and I sure as hell dont have enough experience to discuss this with any sort of conviction. Just like I dont have any experience driving a rig in the city of Philadelphia.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 03-29-2009 at 04:57 PM.
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