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  1. #1
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    Post engine or tanker ? manpower or water ?

    Ok heres the scenario structure fire in a very rural area of the district. Mutual aid company dispatched. Should the mutual aid company roll an engine or tanker first? Not a problem in my area just around the firehouse talk. Just looking for some opinions


  2. #2
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    Default Depends on request

    We will roll at least one pumper and both tankers if it is not spelled out in the request. We will also roll our draft truck, just in case it is needed. We cover mainly rural country and sometimes they are not specific when requesting help. Our pumpers are 1000 gallons each and each tanker is just over 3000 gallons. There have been cases where the pumper and draft trucks were needed.

  3. #3
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    depends, if they are calling MA for a fire, they are probably short water and manpower. If they don't specify I'd send both. You can just park the engine and walk to the scene if it isn't needed.

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    If you set up MABAS this is all spelled out. You call for a rural box and get what YOU determined you wanted on the first and following alarms. Or a tanker box, or a in town box, or a mass casualty box or whatever. YOU decide what is sent by the mutual aid companies.

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    I agree with FyredUp. Why should the MA company, that is not at the scene and may not be familiar with the occupancy, water supply conditions, etc., be the ones deciding the response.

    Here, the run cards are determined in advance based on call type, geography and water supply, and you send what you are toned for.

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    If in a rural area, I would roll a tanker and manpower. Normally the first due department will have enough engines on scene compared to the water supply. In our department our thought is why roll more engines when you don't have enough water to supply them all. Now if it was a more envolved structure such as a large, fully engulfed structure, then that may be a different story, but for a typical rural house fire, the first due department handles the engines and thier tankers, while additional departments bring tankers and manpower. We do have a department that brings thier rescue unit as well that has a extra air packs and a cascade system.
    Puttin the wet stuff on the red stuff!

  7. #7
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    Start it all, canceling is easy.
    IAFF

  8. #8
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    I just can't see any circumstances where the mutual aid company would be deciding what to send without any input from the requester.

    If you arbitrarily decide to send tankers and the need is for an additional engine because the requester's fill engine is down what good have you done them? At the very least it totally escapes me why you wouldn't ask what they want if they don't specify.

  9. #9
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    as was stated, what is being requested? if they request a tanker, send a tanker. if they request an engine, send an engine. if they request a station response, send both.

    if the home dept doesn't have an engine responding, send an engine. if they do, ask them over the radio which unit they want you to respond with.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  10. #10
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firecat104 View Post
    Ok heres the scenario structure fire in a very rural area of the district. Mutual aid company dispatched. Should the mutual aid company roll an engine or tanker first? Not a problem in my area just around the firehouse talk. Just looking for some opinions
    What was the request for??? Your scenario is similar to swiss cheese! A lot of holes!

    What is the pre-arrangements for mutual aid response??

    Pumper, Tanker, Ladder Truck, Brush Unit, ??????
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I just can't see any circumstances where the mutual aid company would be deciding what to send without any input from the requester.

    If you arbitrarily decide to send tankers and the need is for an additional engine because the requester's fill engine is down what good have you done them? At the very least it totally escapes me why you wouldn't ask what they want if they don't specify.
    It should not be arbitrarily, it should be set forth long before the call in
    preplanning with each department. If their fill engine is down, then they should KNOW to ask for a replacment, not expect each responding agency to waste valuable time and airtime asking what they need to bring.

    If we get an auto aid call right now, I know to bring tankers and manpower. If the city asks for mutual aid, I know they want my CAFS engine and manpower. Anything else - if they don't specify different, I know to bring water and manpower. I don't spend precious time checking, or add to the confusion on the radio.

  12. #12
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    I think he is asking the forum what they should ask for from the MA company.

    In other words, what would you ask for?

    And it appears it's either on or the other ... both is not an option.

    They may only have the manpower to send or possibly can only send one out of town.

    I would say, ask for the tanker.

  13. #13
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    It should not be arbitrarily, it should be set forth long before the call in
    preplanning with each department. If their fill engine is down, then they should KNOW to ask for a replacment, not expect each responding agency to waste valuable time and airtime asking what they need to bring.

    If we get an auto aid call right now, I know to bring tankers and manpower. If the city asks for mutual aid, I know they want my CAFS engine and manpower. Anything else - if they don't specify different, I know to bring water and manpower. I don't spend precious time checking, or add to the confusion on the radio.
    If you would have read my FIRST post you would see that I am completely in favor of pre-planning these types of responses. My career FD is part of MABAS and it works great. No question what they want it is right there depending on the type of box alarm they call for.

    If it isn't spelled out by run cards or pre-planned the mutual aid company should ask specifically what the requester wants.

  14. #14
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I think he is asking the forum what they should ask for from the MA company.

    In other words, what would you ask for?

    And it appears it's either on or the other ... both is not an option.

    They may only have the manpower to send or possibly can only send one out of town.

    I would say, ask for the tanker.
    Frankly, if that is the question being asked it is impossible to answer with the minimal information supplied.

    If they have only one engine and it is a structure fire they need at least one more engine in case theirs takes a dump. If they have enough engines and water is the issue ask for tankers. If manpower is requested it won't come on most tankers since they usually only seat 2 or 3. So it is either an engine, or a rescue truck, or some sort of personnel carrier, that is going to have to be sent.

    This can all be settled pre-incident if neighbors would plan together. Golly, kind of like using MABAS.

  15. #15
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    Sorry about the minimal info. In my county a structure fire dispactch procedure is 2 companies (2 departments ) plus a ems unit. My department sops say that on mutual aid calls for structure fires in hydranted areas or in town calls we send a engine if it is in a rural area with no hydrants we send the tanker first with any mutual aid the engine or tanker will be followed by a manpower vehicle. So the scenerio is a rural structure fire first due department on scene with an engine and tanker and pumper tanker at a water source with adequate manpower. should the mutual aid company send a engine or tanker?

  16. #16
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    When we receive a call for mutual aid, the dispatcher will tell us what is being requested. Generally it is a tanker or an engine and a tanker. From there, our dept policies and officer decisions are used to coordinate the response.

    If we send an engine, our rescue truck also rolls for equipment and extra SCBAs/bottles as we have a limited number on the engine.

    Our tanker is a 1968 military 5 ton truck that lumbers along pretty slowly when full. The rescue is also fairly slow, so the engine will go first, rescue next and then the tanker so one truck will not hold up any others.

    Depending on who is riding the apparatus, we may also send a crew cab pickup with extra people. In some cases it is faster to roll the apparatus as soon as a driver arrives at the station, and when a crew arrives, they take the pickup down. That way the slower apparatus has a headstart and the pickup can catch up near the scene. This is generally only done when we have a long way to go.

    Arriving on scene, we report to the IC and they direct us from there.

    The county chiefs have developed a plan for what each town has for apparatus and which towns are called for a first, second, third, etc. alarm. The way it works, if after the first alarm, the primary town needs 3 tankers and 1 engine then they go down the list and put calls in for 2nd-4th alarm tankers and 2nd alarm engine. It works out pretty well.

  17. #17
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    In our county, we are just paged out. We all have radios, so someone gets with the guys on the scene for what they need.
    When we did respond to the next town over last year, they had no fire dept. So we rolled everything.

  18. #18
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    Most of the fire companies around here have pumper/tankers. So that is what rolls. In a few cases the department has just a tanker. In those cases the IC determines what to ask for.

  19. #19
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    Around here, the IC determines what is requested. For us, it depends on the situation at the time. Sometimes, we have enough manpower, so only a tanker is requested, sometimes we're short-handed and need both. If we're requesting both, I'd rather they roll the tanker first, as I can generally "make-do" with the manpower I have.

  20. #20
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    This scenario leaves so much to be desired, however it isn't entirely unrealistic either. If we receive a call for non-specific mutual aid, we're going to roll an engine and a tanker first then a heavy rescue. The engine and tanker cover the manpower, water, and pumping needs. The heavy rescue covers RIT and truck type work.

    Usually we get specific requests but it has happened before where the request was open ended. One can usually assume in such a case that all hell is probably breaking loose on scene and anything we send will be put to use.

    In my department's case, we have alarm cards that specify what gets sent on a second alarm based on the grid location in town. All I have to do is say "Second Alarm" and the dispatchers have it right in front of them who to request for what. A second alarm will bring three tankers, an engine, ladder, RIT team, ambulance, and cover company for the station. There is a modified version for the few commercial and large occupancies we have but 98% of our district is residential.

    We have a third alarm response as well, which is really only for something like a KC-135 stratotanker crashing into a school.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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