1. #1
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    Default Elliptical vs. Wetside vs. Dryside

    I'd appreciate it if someone could explain the pros & cons of elliptical and square tanks (wetside or dryside) for tanker (tender) use.
    If tons of storage is not a requirement, how do they compare in terms of cost, center of gravity, slosh, lifespan, ease of use, ???

    Thanks
    Last edited by Andy2802; 04-06-2009 at 09:52 AM.

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    If you don't need a lot of storage, the elliptical is usually cheaper, and can either carry a little more water, or the same water on a shorter wheelbase.
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

  3. #3
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    Default It's about use

    Usual disclaimer: I sell Fire apparatus.

    Are you going just to use it to haul water or does it also need to haul a larger amount of hose and or tools. The top two are some examples of the normal tanker in NYS.

    The next two are examples of units that would be not too far from here. They use a term loosly (Short Little Ugly Tanker) SLUT. Most of those areas have small, steep, highly crowned roads with poor at best intersectoins. A SLUT is the ideal unit for these areas.

    As pointed out the difference can be seen that wetside units are a bit longer in the wheelbase. You can play with OAL by changing your dump arrangements around.

    The bottom is a unit we recently did delivery training on in western NY near Buffalo NY. They have a large flat area without many hills and fairly straight roads. It works forr this fire department but not for everybody. Okay I know you are wondering, Peterbilt 367 ISX 525 hp 10 spd. Fuller Trans. 5,000 gwt, 2,000gpm Hale pump, remote control deck gun, 2 4" discharges and a booster reel. As for the price tag, I'm not sure. It wasn't my sale (wish it was). They do not have many bridges and most of the ones they do have are over Interstate 90 and therefore under the control of the NYS Thruway Authority with maintance and thier inspection requirements. they also have many farms with tri-axle milk trucks in thier district.

    You can move the center of gravity, the easiest way is to make the tank longer it will reduce the height of a wetside or the diameter of an eliptical. The slosh, ease of use and life span factor should all be about the same. The cost factory will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

    The one thing I would like to point out is this, the fire service is about the only people using square tanks to haul bulk amounts of liquids. This is mainly because of the desire to carry larger amounts of hose, or to have a unit with higher side compartments for tools.
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    Last edited by Fyrtrks; 04-06-2009 at 02:03 PM.
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    How much did that bottom truck cost?

    Im sureprised they would spec it what thay much water and not cafs.
    That truck must weight a LOT, hopefully the bridges will hold it.

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    Smile

    We have two eliptical tanker's. One is a sterling with 2400gwt and the other is a shackliner with 2200 gallon of water both are single axle truck's

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    Fyrtrks:


    From the pics, I'd say you sell for US Tanker. Nice company, have nothing but good things to say about our 2 units they built, and since we are 20 or so miles from them they have helped us out with issues we've had with some of our other apparatus that they did not build.

    Do you have any info on the tri-axle tanker shown in the bottom pic? We have been evaluating the idea of going to a 5000gal tank with a lift axle.

    EDIT: Nevermind! Just found it on their website.
    Last edited by DFDMAXX; 04-06-2009 at 02:52 PM.

  7. #7
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    Maxx:

    If you have questions just send me a note. I have a full set of drawings and the build sheet on this unit.

    myfyrtrks@aol.com

    Your guessing machine is right on the money but I try not to advertise. (fourm rules and all.)
    Last edited by Fyrtrks; 04-06-2009 at 03:13 PM.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyrtrks View Post
    Usual disclaimer: I sell Fire apparatus.

    Are you going just to use it to haul water or does it also need to haul a larger amount of hose and or tools. The top two are some examples of the normal tanker in NYS.

    The next two are examples of units that would be not too far from here. They use a term loosly (Short Little Ugly Tanker) SLUT. Most of those areas have small, steep, highly crowned roads with poor at best intersectoins. A SLUT is the ideal unit for these areas.

    As pointed out the difference can be seen that wetside units are a bit longer in the wheelbase. You can play with OAL by changing your dump arrangements around.

    The bottom is a unit we recently did delivery training on in western NY near Buffalo NY. They have a large flat area without many hills and fairly straight roads. It works forr this fire department but not for everybody. Okay I know you are wondering, Peterbilt 367 ISX 525 hp 10 spd. Fuller Trans. 5,000 gwt, 2,000gpm Hale pump, remote control deck gun, 2 4" discharges and a booster reel. As for the price tag, I'm not sure. It wasn't my sale (wish it was). They do not have many bridges and most of the ones they do have are over Interstate 90 and therefore under the control of the NYS Thruway Authority with maintance and thier inspection requirements. they also have many farms with tri-axle milk trucks in thier district.

    You can move the center of gravity, the easiest way is to make the tank longer it will reduce the height of a wetside or the diameter of an eliptical. The slosh, ease of use and life span factor should all be about the same. The cost factory will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

    The one thing I would like to point out is this, the fire service is about the only people using square tanks to haul bulk amounts of liquids. This is mainly because of the desire to carry larger amounts of hose, or to have a unit with higher side compartments for tools.
    you mean to tell me a us tanker patriot with 2000 gallons will have a shorter wheelbase than their heritage wetside? i thought they used the same body no matter if it was poly elliptical or polywetside.

    As far as slosh, as long as the tank is built with nfpa baffling, slosh is not as much a concern now as it was in the past.

    bulk haulers do one thing: haul liquids. fire tankers, tenders, whatever, on the other hand, most of time do multiple tasks. its comparing apples to oranges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedic20 View Post
    you mean to tell me a us tanker patriot with 2000 gallons will have a shorter wheelbase than their heritage wetside? i thought they used the same body no matter if it was poly elliptical or polywetside.

    As far as slosh, as long as the tank is built with nfpa baffling, slosh is not as much a concern now as it was in the past.

    bulk haulers do one thing: haul liquids. fire tankers, tenders, whatever, on the other hand, most of time do multiple tasks. its comparing apples to oranges.
    You can do a wide range of changes that affect the WB and CA. I am not saying that an eliptical is always shorter but it can be, on the average of about 10".

    As pointed out slosh should only be a factor for a tanker not built to NFPA's baffling standards. (Fuel Trucks or Milk Tankers.) We had a program in NYS that specifically addressed tanker operations. Slosh won't usually be much of a factor because your unit is either empty or full. Now there will be those times where you have to be careful namley after an incident where you didn't use a full tank, but those most likely will be fewer.

    I wasn't trying to say that a FD is a bulk hauler. A square side tanker does have it's place as does an eliptical tanker, again it's all in the use as dertermined by the FD that is buying the unit.

    Why am I justifying a post that wasn't derogitory?
    Last edited by Fyrtrks; 04-06-2009 at 10:28 PM.
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    I'm not sure on the tech name of this truck but we love it. It's a 3,000 gal with a 180 degree dump in the rear. It also has a 500 gpm pump. I find that it has little to no slosh as with our round sided tanks.
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    Default Tanker

    Here are some pictures of our tanker that we took delivery of in November. This unit will fit in a 10' door and is 30'4" long. It has a 3000 gal tank with a 1500 GPM pump. The is also storage on top for large supply hose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eng645 View Post
    Here are some pictures of our tanker that we took delivery of in November. This unit will fit in a 10' door and is 30'4" long. It has a 3000 gal tank with a 1500 GPM pump. The is also storage on top for large supply hose.
    Can you PM me who built this rig and what it cost you? I tried to PM you, but you don't have it activated. I have a FD nearby that's looking for something very similar.

    If anyone's built a pumper-tanker (2,500 or more gallons, 1250 gpm or greater pump) recently I'd love the same info.

    Sorry for getting off-topic, back to your regularly scheduled program!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Can you PM me who built this rig and what it cost you? I tried to PM you, but you don't have it activated. I have a FD nearby that's looking for something very similar.

    If anyone's built a pumper-tanker (2,500 or more gallons, 1250 gpm or greater pump) recently I'd love the same info.

    Sorry for getting off-topic, back to your regularly scheduled program!
    I would say by looking at the pictures that it is a KME Tanker

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    I appreciate all the good ideas and thoughts...

    We are looking for a basic water hauler.
    3000 Gallon, 500 gpm pump.
    We don't need a lot of storage, and we don't need to carry a ton of hose (a little soft suction for filling from hydrants, supply to engines/brush, and some hard suction, just in case).
    Probably one 1.75" preconnect and one 1" booster just for truck protection, and maybe a pre-pided deck gun.
    98% of our area tanker use is direct re-supply of an engine on a rural structure fire, or to refill brush trucks on wildland fires, and maybe 2% of the time we use tankers to deluge a rural surround-and-drown fire.
    In our area, most tankers carry dump tanks, but we never seem to use them, except in training.
    I'm thinking square or T tank, and a rail-mount PTO pump...

    I hate to even ask what you guys think of Kenworth, vs International, vs Peterbilt, vs ... ...
    Heck, the choice is going to be even more limitted if we can't order before 2010...??

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    I'm going to disagree with all of those that say an elliptical is shorter than a wetside. Our Fouts Brothers is 1-3 feet shorter than every elliptical spec we received.

    If you have a square/rectangular tank with the same height and width dimensions as an elliptical, it will be shorter because you lose gallons in the corners.

    Our tanker is built on the Kenworth and we love it. You can see pics and my comments in this thread
    Last edited by simpleguy68; 04-08-2009 at 11:34 AM.

  16. #16
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    Default Length

    As I said before you can do many things withe the CA and WB. I think with the Fouts Bros. units they make the tank fairly wide, almost the full width of the unit. This can be seen in some of thier delivery photos. That would make them wider than the eliptical ones that I have pictured. They tuck the things others put on racks on the sides of the tank under thier tank sides. It does look like the center of gravity is higher on the fouts units and the unit from Hamel but looks can be decieving. The NFPA does have a center of gravity requirement built into it.


    I would second my brother's suggestion, about a 1,000 gpm pump, however you always know what works best for you.
    Last edited by Fyrtrks; 04-08-2009 at 01:30 PM.
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    Let me make a suggestion to you...make the pump at least 1000 gpm. It can act as a stand alone pumper, it can relay, it just adds more versatlility.

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    I agree that a bigger pump add versatility, but I'm also working within the constraints of the Assistance to Firefighter Grant Program.
    It calls anything with a 750gpm pump or bigger either a pumper, or pumper-tanker (1000 gal or larger is considered a tanker).
    We have a good pumper, so our application might acutally loose points for asking for something we already have (in part).
    I'm looking in the grant-writing forum for some input as well, to see if keeping it a straight tanker will improve our chances of an award.
    We need a tanker, and that's are only hope to afford it right now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Can you PM me who built this rig and what it cost you? I tried to PM you, but you don't have it activated. I have a FD nearby that's looking for something very similar.

    If anyone's built a pumper-tanker (2,500 or more gallons, 1250 gpm or greater pump) recently I'd love the same info.

    Sorry for getting off-topic, back to your regularly scheduled program!
    Definetly looks like KME's delivery/inspection room.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    You might look at Midwest Fire. We recently took delivery of a 2000 gallon elliptical with a 500 GPM pump. They have some stock units with 3000 gallon and 750 pumps. So far, we love ours. We looked at a few others, including US Tanker as well. They look like very well built trucks, but they were just a bit higher than Midwest on the bid.

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