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  1. #101
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    Why doesn't everyone who keeps butting heads just read and think about Harves post.I am in total agreement here with what is posted. Secondly, you are an employee of your municipal jurisdiction and their SOPs will dictate what you will do.Personally, if I was in a firetruck enroute to a scene, I might, depending on the severity of the accident and the information from dispatch on the fire, stop and drop an EMT/FF with a crash kit at the MVA. Up here ambulances are run separate from fire calls and in a medical emergency, a fire truck may or may not be dispatched. It seems to work well for us but other depts will do things different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Except that rarely are MVAs fatal. Strokes and heart attacks are. Iím sorry that you think people in a minor accident take precedent over someone who may be dying.

    But this points out an important issue. It is cut and dried.

    I know some people think that first come first serve is a bad way to do business. But think about this for a minute. If you arrive in an ambulance with a patient who is dying, that hospital will commit its resources to saving the first person. If a second one arrives and there is no one to help them, they have to wait. Hence FIFO.

    So if you are responding to a life threatening situation and come upon another life threatening situation you have two choices. Allow the first emergency you were assigned to wait 10 minutes instead of 5, while responding immediacy to the second incident. Or be fair and have both scenes wait 5 minutes, thus providing equal and fair treatment to both emergencies.
    Life's not fair and equitable. Crap happens and sometimes it 'pays' to be at the right place and the right time. If you drive past a scene where services/care are needed, you better have a damn good reason for it becuase you will be asked and you will have to defend yourself. You will be judged in the court of public opinion if not in the court of law. About the only easily defended case is a unit already transporting with lights/sirens a patient and no available resources to leave.

    For most of us, we realize there are more than one truck available to help. We run fire and EMS to most all EMS calls so diverting one resource isn't a problem. We also have more than 2 trucks in service so we can handle multiple simultaneos calls. Its called something that happens daily. Units are expected to serve the comunity with best judgements.

    We currently have something like 12-14 individual fire departments covering our county (3 are career, the rest are township volunteers organized by township funding - standing mutual aid agreements in place though). For transport, we have one EMS agency with 5-6 ALS units, 1 career FD with 2 ALS units and two more BLS volunteer units. Again, there are standing mutual aid agreements to ensure trucks are available.

    Why is this even a question? Units who witness this second incident need to use best judgement on what to do. Its what officers are there for.

  3. #103
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    Wow, leave it up to the same people to argue over petty little things.

    This is a great topic and I thought of another way of handling it.

    If I was still riding the engine enroute to a medical call, a possible life and death call of man down, maybe not breathing. We usually respond with an engine company of 5, at least 4. What I would do is stop the crash, drop off 2 of my EMS people with the medical kit to assess the victims of the crash. I would take out the pocket mask and let them have the rest. I would then call for another engine or response for the crash and continue on to the original call.

    That way I have at least 2, if not 3 people and a pocket mask to do CPR if needed until the ambulance arrives. We only have one defib which is on the EMS vehicle. Every patrol officer carries one so we would use the PD's defib if needed.
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  4. #104
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    without reading pages 3 though 6 (since at page 2 it turned into a ****ing contest)

    to those who advocate not stopping:

    you are dispatched to a medical local/EMS run/single company response, and while enroute, you see a large amount of smoke coming from the rear of the structure about 100 feet ahead of you, which is on your path to the original call. are you going to stop and investigate the cause of the smoke and find the structure fire, or just call it in and have other units handle the call?

    same idea, you get flagged down (which happens all the time where I dispatch), you have a new emergency. other units have to take your original call, and you deal with the emergency at hand.

    for everyone else, if you are going to a call, and come up on an MVA, notify PD and assess for injuries. finding none, continue to your original call. unless it's like an MVA on a highway where there is scene safety issues, there is no need to babysit when you have another call pending that you can do something about.

    not really rocket science.
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  5. #105
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    Sop's Sop's Sop's. listen to them unless the situation dictates otherwise.

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    Even in a structure fire situation, here in LA, we are legally obligated to handle the 1st emergency first.

    That being said, since we run a fire department first response vehicle and the parish EMS unit together from our Central Station the majority of the time, the fire department apparatus could stop at the smoke incident and the EMS unit could continue to the EMS call. That would handle the legal obligation.

    The only exception would be if we are responding to a possible rescue situation, which could, based on the dispatch information, reasonably require the tools, the equipment and/or the manpower on the FD unit. In that case, the FD unit would be legally obligated to continue. We would also be obligated under our SOPs.

    If we were not responding together, and the fire department unit was closest, stopping at the smoke situation or MVA could become legally very sticky and would very much come down to the nature of the medical emergency and the additional response time of the first arriving unit. That would be a judgment call on the the senior man. And he better have good reason as it likely may end up in court.

    If we were getting an EMS unit from another parish unit, which could be an additional 10-25 minutes, and we were the only fire department vehicle responding, which is not uncommon daytime, we would have no choice but to pass up the MVA or the visible smoke, and continue on to the original EMS call. We would simply have no choice under the law.

    If we had enough personnel on the rig to reasonably expect to be able to handle the emergency with less personnel based on the dispatch info, we could drop 1-2 members off at the MVA and continue on with the remainder of the crew. That again, would fulfill our legal response requirements.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-12-2009 at 11:16 PM.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Why doesn't everyone who keeps butting heads just read and think about Harves post.I am in total agreement here with what is posted. Secondly, you are an employee of your municipal jurisdiction and their SOPs will dictate what you will do.Personally, if I was in a firetruck enroute to a scene, I might, depending on the severity of the accident and the information from dispatch on the fire, stop and drop an EMT/FF with a crash kit at the MVA. Up here ambulances are run separate from fire calls and in a medical emergency, a fire truck may or may not be dispatched. It seems to work well for us but other depts will do things different.

    Thanks for the Back.... AND I just noticed, You have passed 1,000 Posts. Congrats, Keep 'em coming.........
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  8. #108
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    The ridiculousness of this this thread displays much of what is wrong with today's fire service:

    1. I am scared to make a decision.

    2. No one can agree on even the simplest of issues and we wonder why the police are getting all of the federal money....

    3. If I didn't think of it, it is wrong and your idea is stupid.

    You would think it is a bunch of 1st graders posting on these forums.
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    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    The ridiculousness of this this thread displays much of what is wrong with today's fire service:

    1. I am scared to make a decision.

    2. No one can agree on even the simplest of issues and we wonder why the police are getting all of the federal money....

    3. If I didn't think of it, it is wrong and your idea is stupid.

    You would think it is a bunch of 1st graders posting on these forums.
    You are a BIG FAT DUMMY HEAD!!!










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  10. #110
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    Default Wow, sorry to cause trouble.

    Funny thing is that I started this hoping to hear what each departments SOP/SOGs stated. Yet I have only heard 2 responses that tell me what thier SOP/SOGs state. For all those arguing about abandonment and neglect, go look in your SOP/SOGs. Then come back and tell me what they say. If they don't address this issue, then durring your weekly training (if not sooner) ask your Chief.

    (This was actually a test question from my book.)
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    Thanks for the Back.... AND I just noticed, You have passed 1,000 Posts. Congrats, Keep 'em coming.........
    Thanks Harve. I never even noticed. Course at my age, there starts to be a lot I don't notice anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    The ridiculousness of this this thread displays much of what is wrong with today's fire service:
    What is that? That different departments do things different ways? If you want standardization, then I propose everyone do things exactly how my department does it. Throw away the Memphis rules - I'll send you a copy of mine!

    1. I am scared to make a decision.
    Like it or not, officers are bound by their General Orders, sop's, or whatever you call them. If they allow you no leeway, then that's that. Here, 90% of the time the run you were dispatched to is your run. If there is some extraordinary event, then of course there is room to change up the response. That said, to have rigs picking up there own business along the way and not continuing on their assigned jobs - as a matter of official policy - would create chaos. In my opinion, based on my department, of course.

    2. No one can agree on even the simplest of issues and we wonder why the police are getting all of the federal money....
    I'm sure if you asked a cop from Memphis and a cop from BFE how they would handle the exact same situation, you would likely get two widely varying answers based on local and state laws and department proceedures. The "police" are not monolithic...

    3. If I didn't think of it, it is wrong and your idea is stupid.
    This is true...

    You would think it is a bunch of 1st graders posting on these forums.
    Nah, 1st graders would probably understand that different schools are run different ways.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    Wow, leave it up to the same people to argue over petty little things.

    This is a great topic and I thought of another way of handling it.

    If I was still riding the engine enroute to a medical call, a possible life and death call of man down, maybe not breathing. We usually respond with an engine company of 5, at least 4. What I would do is stop the crash, drop off 2 of my EMS people with the medical kit to assess the victims of the crash. I would take out the pocket mask and let them have the rest. I would then call for another engine or response for the crash and continue on to the original call.

    That way I have at least 2, if not 3 people and a pocket mask to do CPR if needed until the ambulance arrives. We only have one defib which is on the EMS vehicle. Every patrol officer carries one so we would use the PD's defib if needed.
    Am I on of the "same people"?

    We are not allowed to split up crews like that under any circumstance. A company stays a company.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whocares View Post
    I'm sure if you asked a cop from Memphis and a cop from BFE how they would handle the exact same situation, you would likely get two widely varying answers based on local and state laws and department proceedures. The "police" are not monolithic...
    I agree that police departments do things many different ways. I think Memphis's point here is that you don't see them bickering about it all of the time. The fire service bickers about everything -- even in public, which hurts us.

    Of course, there's nothing wrong with a little lively debate. This place is a lot like the real firehouse in that way. But this thread got ridiculous in a hurry. People were essentially screaming the that the world would end if someone handle the situation in some other way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cozmosis View Post
    People were essentially screaming the that the world would end if someone handle the situation in some other way.
    And they're scraming abou their OPINIONS, when the question asked was about PROTOCOLS.

    Let's face it: what we would do in this situation isn't up to us. I've never seen an EMS system yet that didn't have a written response protocol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    So a fender bender with minor injuries is more important than a life threatening heart attack or stroke? I hope I never have to count on you for help.
    I'm pretty sure not many on here (unless their SOPs dictate it) would stop for a fender bender to drop a chest pain or altered LOC. Your multitude of "what if" scenarios lack the officer's discretion, and if there is a significant MOI right in front of them, they will likely let dispatch know they are diverting. And keep in mind most on here are FIREFIGHTERS, and will not likely be rinding a bus.

    I know it seems hard for you from from behind your desk, but truly, it's not hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewHampshireFF View Post
    And they're scraming abou their OPINIONS, when the question asked was about PROTOCOLS.

    Let's face it: what we would do in this situation isn't up to us. I've never seen an EMS system yet that didn't have a written response protocol.
    Yet you'd probably be surprised how many protocols that are out there don't address coming across an incident when en route to another. At the ambulance service I cited, we didn't until we had it happen (how it never happened before, I don't know). That's what prompted the call to the attorney, etc.

    Even afterward, it was left at the shift supervisor's discretion. He had to base it off the information at hand (location, availablity of back-up and their location, level of training of first responders, etc.).

    Like I say, I don't know that one can build a black-and-white protocol that covers all situations, as there's too many "what ifs" out there, and too many combinations of scenarios.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by cozmosis View Post
    I agree that police departments do things many different ways. I think Memphis's point here is that you don't see them bickering about it all of the time. The fire service bickers about everything -- even in public, which hurts us.

    Of course, there's nothing wrong with a little lively debate. This place is a lot like the real firehouse in that way. But this thread got ridiculous in a hurry. People were essentially screaming the that the world would end if someone handle the situation in some other way.
    Finally......some words of wisdom from the old wise one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whocares View Post
    Am I on of the "same people"?
    No comment.


    My fingers shall not point on this thread. However, if you have to ask........
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  20. #120
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    Our protocols are pretty much dictated by the law.

    Makes it easy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    No comment.


    My fingers shall not point on this thread. However, if you have to ask........
    Sure, go ahead - I'm an easy target, But you know what? I like me. My wife likes me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whocares View Post
    Sure, go ahead - I'm an easy target, But you know what? I like me. My wife likes me.
    Here's a hint, when you're telling one of your little anecdotes, HAVE A POINT!

    It makes it so much more enjoyable for the listener.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd1992 View Post
    Here's a hint, when you're telling one of your little anecdotes, HAVE A POINT!

    It makes it so much more enjoyable for the listener.
    Hahahaha...

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