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  1. #1
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    Default Mayday, LUNAR Reminder

    Maryland Firefighter in Critical Condition

    - Keep Firefighter/Paramedic McGown in your prayers.

    Close calls prompt us to think of what we would do if the situation presented happened to us personally. It also prompts us to see where we may be weak and need some additional practice or training. The story above should cause us to consider:
    • You come in as part of a later arriving company and find a firefighter down; what do you do - or better, what are you expected to do?
    • What does LUNAR mean for you and your department? (I've learned that not everyone has the same words in the mnemonic)
    • Chief officers, you have a mayday transmitted early into the fire attack, before all of the first alarm units/companies are on the scene; what do you do - or better, what are you expected to do.
    Note: these are general questions; not to infer something into the above story.

    It's not to debate; some will do things different than others. If so, let it go. The purpose is to be able to recall what you are supposed to do.
    Will you look into it now or wait until the next fire?

    Calling A Mayday: The Drill
    Managing the Fireground Mayday
    Last edited by bcarey; 04-08-2009 at 02:33 PM.
    "If you put the fire out right in the first place, you won't have to jump out the window."
    Andy Fredericks,
    FDNY E.48, SQ.18
    Alexandria, VA F.D.

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    Excellent reminder.

    Thanks for the timely post.

  3. #3
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcarey View Post
    You come in as part of a later arriving company and find a firefighter down; what do you do - or better, what are you expected to do?
    Do you mean we are inside and happen to stumble across a down firefighter? Radio it to command and get him out immididately. He's a victim now. If there happens to be another team/company with you, then one can get him out while the other team continues on. Or both can remove him if needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by bcarey View Post
    What does LUNAR mean for you and your department? (I've learned that not everyone has the same words in the mnemonic)
    The only lunar I know is in reference to the moon. Someone will have to enlighten me on that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by bcarey View Post
    Chief officers, you have a mayday transmitted early into the fire attack, before all of the first alarm units/companies are on the scene; what do you do - or better, what are you expected to do.
    The answer to this questions is "it depends". It depends on who is on scene and what their capabilities are. It depends on where the guy in trouble is located in the building. It depends on the fire conditions. It depends on the structural conditions. It depends on who is coming and how far out they are. It depends on what the mayday is for. A mayday could be simply because he is disoriented and lost and thats easy enough to fix. Or it could be he is trapped or injured or worse. Way to many variables to give one answer.


    Quote Originally Posted by bcarey View Post
    Note: these are general questions; not to infer something into the above story... The purpose is to be able to recall what you are supposed to do. Will you look into it now or wait until the next fire?
    It dismays me that for some reason we can discuss this. But we can't have the exact same discussion about apparatus accidents because "it would be mean". I digress.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Do you mean we are inside and happen to stumble across a down firefighter? Radio it to command and get him out immididately. He's a victim now. If there happens to be another team/company with you, then one can get him out while the other team continues on. Or both can remove him if needed.

    I think he may have been looking for more specifics. Transmitting a mayday, checking his air, getting him packaged if time, resources, and conditions allow, and finding the best possible way out are just some considerations.


    The only lunar I know is in reference to the moon. Someone will have to enlighten me on that one.

    LUNAR is the acronym used by the member giving the mayday.

    Last know location
    Unit
    Name (not real big on this one)
    Assignment
    Resources that may be needed




    The answer to this questions is "it depends". It depends on who is on scene and what their capabilities are. It depends on where the guy in trouble is located in the building. It depends on the fire conditions. It depends on the structural conditions. It depends on who is coming and how far out they are. It depends on what the mayday is for. A mayday could be simply because he is disoriented and lost and thats easy enough to fix. Or it could be he is trapped or injured or worse. Way to many variables to give one answer.



    It dismays me that for some reason we can discuss this. But we can't have the exact same discussion about apparatus accidents because "it would be mean". I digress.


    Please leave the foot stomping in the other threads.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 04-08-2009 at 07:33 PM.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Also try this, there are a bunch of good ones on here.

    http://www.fireengineering.com/video...tid=1668494950
    Totally Unacceptable !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    It dismays me that for some reason we can discuss this. But we can't have the exact same discussion about apparatus accidents because "it would be mean". I digress.
    Why is this so hard to understand?

    Noone is saying don't talk about proper and safe techniques (no matter what the topic).

    The issue is assigning blame and making assumptions about an incident before the facts are known. To immediately jump to a conclusion based on guesses or hunches.

    The OP made it very clear he wasn't criticizing or pointing fingers. Your comparison falls short.

    .
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Why is this so hard to understand?

    Noone is saying don't talk about proper and safe techniques (no matter what the topic).

    The issue is assigning blame and making assumptions about an incident before the facts are known. To immediately jump to a conclusion based on guesses or hunches.

    The OP made it very clear he wasn't criticizing or pointing fingers. Your comparison falls short.
    I said the EXACT SAME THING the OP here did in an apparatus thread. I was drawn, quartered, strung up in the town center and stoned to death. So no, it doesn't fall short. It is right on the mark. I realize there are people like you said, and that isn't want I'm talking about here.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LUNAR is the acronym used by the member giving the mayday.

    Last know location
    Unit
    Name (not real big on this one)
    Assignment
    Resources that may be needed
    Our County Mayday guidelines define it as:
    a. Last Known Location
    b. Unit Number
    c. Notable Event (what happened)
    d. Assignment
    e. Remaining Air, Resources Needed, and Radio Equipped
    They went away from "Name" because "we don't say Names on the radio". I have heard talk about going back though.

    At first I wasn't a fan of Name as it seemed redundant, I'm already giving Unit.. and really giving Unit/Seat (Eng1 Officer, Truck1 Irons..whatever). After talking to one of our instructors I'm rethinking that. The theory for going back to Name is that that it personalizes it... you're going after Steve Smith, not "someone from Truck1". The other reason was it avoids confusion if the RIT meets up with the rest of the fallen firefighter's crew. A simple "Is Steve with you" versus a longer conversation under IDLH/reduced visibility conditions.
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  9. #9
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    Our County Mayday guidelines define it as:


    They went away from "Name" because "we don't say Names on the radio". I have heard talk about going back though.

    At first I wasn't a fan of Name as it seemed redundant, I'm already giving Unit.. and really giving Unit/Seat (Eng1 Officer, Truck1 Irons..whatever). After talking to one of our instructors I'm rethinking that. The theory for going back to Name is that that it personalizes it... you're going after Steve Smith, not "someone from Truck1". The other reason was it avoids confusion if the RIT meets up with the rest of the fallen firefighter's crew. A simple "Is Steve with you" versus a longer conversation under IDLH/reduced visibility conditions.

    I think the name thing could definitely cut down on confusion, but should only be used as a last resort or for company specific roll calls. Adding "personalization" will only create more havoc than is already there...I dont need any more motivation to go find a brother.

    Far too many people have scanners, and there are too many buffs riding around posting things on forums while the fire is still ongoing. I personally know 1 individual who was listening to a fire, and thought her husband died when the roof collapsed, because they used names. Im sure there are plenty of other anecdotes as well.

    Im not sure if thats enough reason to not use it...it certainly can still be up for debate. Thanks for the link btw.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    At first I wasn't a fan of Name as it seemed redundant, I'm already giving Unit.. and really giving Unit/Seat (Eng1 Officer, Truck1 Irons..whatever). After talking to one of our instructors I'm rethinking that. The theory for going back to Name is that that it personalizes it... you're going after Steve Smith, not "someone from Truck1". The other reason was it avoids confusion if the RIT meets up with the rest of the fallen firefighter's crew. A simple "Is Steve with you" versus a longer conversation under IDLH/reduced visibility conditions.
    I agree. I'd rather they know exactly who I'm looking for. Especially if units get re-assigned on scene. Lessens the confusion.

  11. #11
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Default Name...

    We all know to avoid using the name, and I understand the use of scanners and family listening.

    I think it's gonna depend on if it's really needed. You'll know.

    Also, in the heat of the moment, the name might have to be said to make sure there is NO confusion. There is no substitute. I know my "badge" number, but noone else will.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    http://www.dcfirefeed.com/archives/87harrington.wav

    incase anyone wants to listen to the audio.


    Good job to the boys from Kentland. They get a lot of **** for "not playing well with career guys" but they got the job done. I've been told that FF/PM McGown is now expected to make a full recovery.
    Last edited by somebody509; 04-10-2009 at 01:32 PM.

  13. #13
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    We've tried to simplify it even more, just in an effort to help the thought process out when in trouble.

    We utilize "L*I*P"; location, identification, problem.

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    I like the "Notable Event" in place of name. I think that would incorporate "I'm out of air" or "trapped under a collapsed roof" pretty well. In the incident given by the OP, the name was not used, actually according to the audio I believe they thought it was a crewmember from a different apparatus. In our department, we don't have names on our gear. We run with so many different companies, I probably wouldn't know the names of some people on the fireground. I don't see the relevance of a name except for accountability. I agree with others on the "personalization" not being a necessity.

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    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    The MAYDAY class I taught this past Monday was information straight from Jefferson County, KY's MAYDAY powerpoint. Lots of good info there, I would direct anyone to look through it and get some ideas.

    www.jeffcofire.com/images/JeffCoRIT.ppt
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    A topic relative to this was brought up in my essentials class last week. Our instructors said that when a mayday goes out, the IC should automatically hit the next alarm because that companies guys are going to cause havoc trying to get their own out. Also, their attention will most likely no longer be on fighting the fire but on their brother in distress. I am glad to hear he should be making a full recovery.
    Kyle
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    I think the name thing could definitely cut down on confusion, but should only be used as a last resort or for company specific roll calls. Adding "personalization" will only create more havoc than is already there...I dont need any more motivation to go find a brother.

    Far too many people have scanners, and there are too many buffs riding around posting things on forums while the fire is still ongoing. I personally know 1 individual who was listening to a fire, and thought her husband died when the roof collapsed, because they used names. Im sure there are plenty of other anecdotes as well.

    Im not sure if thats enough reason to not use it...it certainly can still be up for debate. Thanks for the link btw.
    Agree on the personalization/motivation factor. The primary reason was to cut down on confusion.. We were presented with the following scenario: T1 split their crew and the two pairs were working separately. One group got in trouble and called the mayday. RIT went in service and while searching found the other pair from T1 in no visibility. RIT knew they were looking for someone from T1, but no specifics. In that scenario, knowing the downed firefighter's name will help. Is the scenario contrived? Maybe. Is it possible? I can picture it.

    I definitely see your point about buffs/press with scanners. My wife listened to the scanner before we went to a new system and used to comment "how I sounded on the radio".. I cannot imagine her listening in a mayday situation.
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    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    In a department that isn't organized by company, such as is often the case in rural settings, the name could be far more useful than some made up company or unit number.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    We've been teaching to try our guys to ID a member down by name if possible, or to have you ID yourself if in trouble to eliminate any chance of confusion.

    We may have guys working a trade at a different company, a relief assignment or an over-time, and they may forget, while under extreme stress, their company for that day, etc...

    We're just trying to simplify things as much as possible. Finding them and getting them out is job number one, making sure that we're not searching for a member who forgot what company they are assigned to (yes, it happens) is very important, as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    In a department that isn't organized by company, such as is often the case in rural settings, the name could be far more useful than some made up company or unit number.
    Thats a good point.


    I think using the name is important so we know exactly who called it and who we pulled out. While it can lead to assumptions being made by the people in scanner land, those close to me know my company. If they heard something happened to a member of that company they'd still know I could be involved.

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