1. #1
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    Default Don't miss it in the app - 2009 AFG

    If you answered less than 100% to either question above, are you requesting for training funds in this application to bring 100% of your firefighters into compliance with NFPA 1001?

    If you’ve indicated that less than 100% of your firefighters are trained to the Firefighter II level and you are not asking for training funds in this application, please describe in the narrative section of this application your training program and your plans to bring your membership up to Firefighter II.

    Of course that may beg the question, what's FFII since there are state levels of the same name in places...probably going to confuse some people there.

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    [QUOTE=BC79er;1052662]If you answered less than 100% to either question above, are you requesting for training funds in this application to bring 100% of your firefighters into compliance with NFPA 1001?

    If you’ve indicated that less than 100% of your firefighters are trained to the Firefighter II level and you are not asking for training funds in this application, please describe in the narrative section of this application your training program and your plans to bring your membership up to Firefighter II.

    Of course that may beg the question, what's FFII since there are state levels of the same name in places...probably going to confuse some people there.[/Q UOTE]

    So, If I say that "We have X number of FF's are certified to the equivalent standards of NFPA 1001 and 8 others FF's are in various stages of attaining that level of certification." I need to elaborate more than that? That I have to include FF2?

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    I asked the powers that be about it, no answer as of yet but only sent it right after I posted so might be a bit.

    Anyone that applied last year they asked the question about FF1, but I guess it has progressed. In the volunteer world can't see any more valid answer than training is an ongoing but upward process. In TX it's about 300 hours to get FF1 equivalent, only 70 plus live burn to ride and go interior. 600 to be FF2 equivalent, have to take the TX Commission test to actally get the IFSAC certs. As long as training isn't watching Backdraft or playing XBox I'm sure there won't be anything going against anyone that's trying to make progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    I asked the powers that be about it, no answer as of yet but only sent it right after I posted so might be a bit.

    Anyone that applied last year they asked the question about FF1, but I guess it has progressed. In the volunteer world can't see any more valid answer than training is an ongoing but upward process. In TX it's about 300 hours to get FF1 equivalent, only 70 plus live burn to ride and go interior. 600 to be FF2 equivalent, have to take the TX Commission test to actally get the IFSAC certs. As long as training isn't watching Backdraft or playing XBox I'm sure there won't be anything going against anyone that's trying to make progress.
    in the middle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    I asked the powers that be about it, no answer as of yet but only sent it right after I posted so might be a bit.

    Anyone that applied last year they asked the question about FF1, but I guess it has progressed. In the volunteer world can't see any more valid answer than training is an ongoing but upward process. In TX it's about 300 hours to get FF1 equivalent, only 70 plus live burn to ride and go interior. 600 to be FF2 equivalent, have to take the TX Commission test to actally get the IFSAC certs. As long as training isn't watching Backdraft or playing XBox I'm sure there won't be anything going against anyone that's trying to make progress.

    **This is where I begin to have a problem with the AFG PG and how it relates to FF1 and FF2 for all applicants. They emphasis the importance of training and rightly so, but at the same time for very small rural departments, FF1 training becomes available to a region about once every 2 or 3 years. I know because I monitor that like a hawk. Then within the PG it states that these same rural areas are given a lower priority, but expect them to maintain the training frequencies as a urban or suburban applicant. Even if a region has the minimum number of training applicants available to train, getting the state fire marshalls office to schedule the class within the one year time period between AFG periods is not practical or going to happen, for even them. Remember these classes usually take place over a 10 month period. An accelerated class still takes 5 months with many miles of travel time over deer covered highways.

    I know some will say it is sour grapes or that's too bad or we're just cry babies, but the truth is that this is the hard reality of the situation and the state fire marshalls office acknowledges this. Getting the AFG to acknowledge is another story. It is in fact almost an impossible obstacle to overcome or convince those (individuals) that are not in that situation.

    FEMA states it is not trying to 'weed out' non compliant departments, but we all know that that is not really true either. Physicals for driver/operators! An example of jumping through hoops to be able to drive our apparatus or be able to get funding for them. True it is a good idea, but give us a realistic time frame and the funding straight out to accomplish it. Our budget for 2007 was $7900. Income. 2008 was $10,000. Any idea how much the expense of physicals hurts a departments ability to meet the cost of the next regulation that comes down the pipe? I keep hearing "Well get the individuals insurance to cover the physical." Well in the real world that is really not feasible or long range, practical. Even illegal to request an insurance company to pay for an expense for anothers reason. How would FEMA respond if they knew they paid for physicals so a volunteer could be hired by a freight company?

    I've got 55 year old men taking FF1 just to honor our commitment to last years award.

    Everyone is agreeing that regulation requirements have achieved an out of control status. Its a war between agencies trying to establish their worthiness of exisiting and its being translated into the AFG program guidelines.

    Sorry to get on my soap box about this, but this comes from being a full time volunteer struggling to comply with the avalanche of regulations, beg for funding and donations and having to explain to the state and fed's what's happening in the middle. (kinda matches the cartoon on todays homepage)

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    I think part of it comes from people not looking outside their own immediate space and not walking that mile in someone else's shoes. It's like the NY law for bailout kits required everyone to have them, not saying where the money is supposed to come from, and threatening departments and their municipalities with shutdowns if they don't comply. Yet I have a pile of departments and municipalities that have legislative requirements for minimum spending in several categories and nothing left for more legislative requirements. Of course the state won't shut them down since then the state would have to provide the fire protection. Too many laws requiring things that no one can comply with all at the same time. Best sentence for the training is that we're working on it as quickly as we can. Then it's time for us to start beating the doors and Inboxes of the 9 national organizations coming up with this stuff to increase the priority of the training side of things so that we can include them with gear and SCBA and not get bounced by the computer for a laundry list, like what happened to so many last year. Typical ivory tower, want it both ways thinking.

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    You do understand. I knew you would. Todays cartoon by Combs pretty much sums up a lot of it.

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    Just ask for the monet to have the training yourself.
    You can set your own schedule for classes, practicals ect.

    AFG will pay for it.

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    you forgot being able to reimburse students up to $18.50 per hour for time from work. Provide incredible training classrooms with practical skills locations and do everything to take away the answer "No" from the instructing agency and you end up with silence on the other end of the phone. AFG is anxious to take away our excuses on a department level, but its not translating well on the opposite end of us.

    I'm not anxious to be turned down for an award because of training issues, especially after so many hours being put into it. Lack of versatility from governement agencies that technically 'work for us' is a major headache.

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    well how many employers are going to want to let their people take vacation for firefighter training, let alone unpaid hours? FF1 is longer than 2 weeks. Plu how many people make more than $18.50 an hour at work? Some would love to make that much, but many professions pay more than that both blue and white collar jobs. Time is the most expensive commodity on the Earth since we never know how much we have left. Take the story on NY that's on the home page. Certainly online training can help some, or even DVD based training. It beats nothing but is it really effective training and use of time?

    If I hadn't joined while in college I couldn't now. I haven't even been able to run in 18 months because of running the business and traveling, there's no way I could take any kind of training class to start as a volunteer now. I do my EMS CEs online so I don't lose that since I'll probably never have the time to redo that whole class again.

    On top of that I have a lot of people that were canned by the computer asking for IFSTA manuals, DVDs, and the like along with gear or packs, or other stuff, and even by themselves. So if it's that important how are these apps getting turned down by the computer?

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    One problem is every state probably has some different requirement for FFI/FFII.

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    That's why it's NFPA 1001 FF1. About 100 hours on average. Should be easy up your way, PA only runs IFSAC protocols. TX, AR, and a few others we have volunteer certs and career track certs. Both lead to the same end but TX vollie equivalent to FFI doesn't exactly line up with the state hours so it's full hours on 1, part of next level.

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    I'm actually the only guy at my station who is FFII, and have been trying to get this across to the others, and telling them this was coming. I'm glad it's in black and white now.

    Does the AFG plan on a department to become 100% FFII within the year? I'd find it a little tough to get 30 guys through both, I have trouble getting guys to take a CPR refreasher class, LOL.

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    Firefighter 2 is an optional question. It's required only for career FFs. FF2 will be 'highly encouraged' in the volunteer world but never required.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    Firefighter 2 is an optional question. It's required only for career FFs. FF2 will be 'highly encouraged' in the volunteer world but never required.
    BC, tell me why my beloved Texas requires 300 hours now to achieve FF1? That has got to be a gigantic obstacle for not just small departments. Has Texas created a 'sin' tax now? Today I recorded the department survey from our largest department in our region and under the question "How many FF's within your department have achieved FF1 NFPA 1001 status? He replied "1". Then I realized that he was running JUST below normal for our region, but 300 hours, holy cow!

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    Beats me. It's only 70 plus live burn to get the Intro SFFMA Cert and go interior. But 300 is the FFI hours, which is SFFMA Basic and half of Intermediate. The other 300 take you through to finish SFFMA Advanced at which point you can challenge the TCFP test and get IFSAC certs for FF1, 2, D/O, and HazMat Ops. Of course TX is full-on happy with online training, all you need is an instructor to sign off on the hands-on portions at the right intervals and can be done pretty quickly.

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    jam24u, need to ask if you would share your NFPA 1001 training narrative. A friend in a vol dept asked me to help him and I'm in a career dept. tryn to figure out what to ask for to gain the highest priority among peer review. thanks in advance. firedawg_eng3@hotmail.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by firedawg667 View Post
    jam24u, need to ask if you would share your NFPA 1001 training narrative. A friend in a vol dept asked me to help him and I'm in a career dept. tryn to figure out what to ask for to gain the highest priority among peer review. thanks in advance. firedawg_eng3@hotmail.com
    for what it's worth, done.

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    Default Trainine

    Just a suggestion. There are training programs that you can purchase and have your training in house. Our department requested funding from AFG 2008 for the training materials. From what I was told by our AFG program person is that you do not have to be certified, you have to be trained. If you have 1 person on your department that is FF1 or FF2 trained/certified, they can instructed the training sessions with the material. All you have to do then is have your State's testers come to your department and you members can test out and be certified. We purchased our training from ACTION TRAINING. We were able to purchase all of the FF1, FF2 and Driver/Operater materials that included the training DVD's, test bank questions and alot more. You can do the training at your own pace and then schedule the test date. We have just completed FF2. We met once a week in the evenings to complete the training and the State testers came to our department on a scheduled weekend to conduct the test.

    You are right Jam24U, it is hard as volunteers to get all of your members to go somewhere at the same time during the day to take a lengthy test. By doing this, it makes it easier to get more people trained and certified.

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    Here in Michigan, if you want to put a FFI and FFII course on, the instructor has to be certified by the state firfighters training council. If he isn't, no certificates. We send all of our POC through the counties yearly FFI FFII course. It meets all of the NFPA standards. It takes about 7 or 8 months to complete. Right now we are able to answer that we are 100% FFII.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjb1994 View Post
    Just a suggestion. There are training programs that you can purchase and have your training in house. Our department requested funding from AFG 2008 for the training materials. From what I was told by our AFG program person is that you do not have to be certified, you have to be trained. If you have 1 person on your department that is FF1 or FF2 trained/certified, they can instructed the training sessions with the material. All you have to do then is have your State's testers come to your department and you members can test out and be certified. We purchased our training from ACTION TRAINING. We were able to purchase all of the FF1, FF2 and Driver/Operater materials that included the training DVD's, test bank questions and alot more. You can do the training at your own pace and then schedule the test date. We have just completed FF2. We met once a week in the evenings to complete the training and the State testers came to our department on a scheduled weekend to conduct the test.

    You are right Jam24U, it is hard as volunteers to get all of your members to go somewhere at the same time during the day to take a lengthy test. By doing this, it makes it easier to get more people trained and certified.

    Action Training, I'll remember that. Thanks. (BTW are you and 'mountaindew' the same?)

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    We are lucky, that we are able to team with our County's Fire Rescue for training, but as all-volunteer department with a regular turn-over, this is how I answer the question:

    "100% of our “Active” Volunteer Firefighters have State Certified FF1 and Basic Wildland Firefighter training (S130, S190 and ICS200).
    All new volunteers are scheduled to complete the training within their first year with our department. We are 100% compliant with the Volunteer Firefighter requirements set forth by the Florida State Fire Marshall’s office, and Florida State Statute 633.820, “The Florida Firefighter Occupational Health and Safety Act” (FFOSA), and Rule 4A-62, which includes the volunteer training requirements, physical exams, and the NFPA 1002 Driver Operator training requirements. New firefighters that have not yet completed the required training are considered “Orientation Phase” firefighters and not permitted to enter into an IDLH environment, and they have specific markings on their PPE to distinguish them from compliant “Active” Firefighters."

    Yes, it's true that not every new volunteer has been able to complete the training in the first year due to extenuating circumstances, but I think it shows we are making a good faith effort to stay up with the NFPA.

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