1. #1
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    Default Air pack question

    Does anyone know? Does it matter how many air packs you ask for. For instance we have one truck with a five man cab, and one truck with a single cab, but it carries four packs in the side compartment. Our 5 man cab truck has air pack seats, but no packs, and the other one has four older belt regulator packs. I would like to write a grant for 8 new packs. Does this sound feasible? I heard that you could only get packs for the amount of seating you have. Is this true.

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    We got air packs a few years ago and they reduced the number we were awarded. We have always carried 6 packs on our engines, even the engines with commercial style single cabs. We requested 6 packs for each engine. Our actual number in practice is this:

    Engine 2 - 3 seats, 4 packs
    Engine 3 - 3 seats, 6 packs
    Engine 5 - 3 seats, 6 packs
    Engine 6 - 6 seats, 6 packs
    Rescue 7 - 2 seats, 6 packs (service truck)
    Service 4 - 3 seats, 6 packs (mini-pumper, classified as a service truck)

    Rescue 7 didn't exist at the time, so if you subtract those 6 it would be 28 packs, which is what we requested. We actually received funding for 22, which also does not correspond with the number of seats, which is where I got confused. But 22 DOES correspond with the number of SCBA required by ISO standards for an engine (4) and a service unit (6), so maybe that's what they based their award on.

    So, if that's the logic, you have two engines, 4 units to an engine, so you should qualify for 8. Again, I'm not sure, but that's how the math worked out for us. I'm sure someone here can explain it better.

    Make sure in your narrative that you explain that you want to replace the old belt-mounted regulator packs. We cited compatibility issues, as well as training (don't want to have to train people on two different styles of pack). Also cite compliance with NFPA guidelines (heads-up display, integrated PASS, etc.)
    Last edited by dmleblanc; 04-16-2009 at 01:41 AM.
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    Thanks for the info. I just found in the PG where it talks about this.
    "If awarded, SCBA replacement will be based on the number of seated positions in the applicants fleet, and the age of the SCBA inventory."
    Can I get one for the Drivers? or is there a standard like was said for an Engine. Also does someone have a link where I can find the 1997 Edition of NFPA 1981. I have the 2002 Edition but not the 1997.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grasstrimmer View Post
    Thanks for the info. I just found in the PG where it talks about this.
    "If awarded, SCBA replacement will be based on the number of seated positions in the applicants fleet, and the age of the SCBA inventory."
    Can I get one for the Drivers? or is there a standard like was said for an Engine. Also does someone have a link where I can find the 1997 Edition of NFPA 1981. I have the 2002 Edition but not the 1997.
    One should be able to argue NFPA 1901, which requires a minimum of 4 SCBA per engine or one per seating position, whichever is greater.

    To find the copy of whatever NFPA standard you're looking for, just go to www.nfpa.org and type in "NFPA XXXX" into the search box and it should take you to it.

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    Pumper/Quints/Aerials/Heavy or Medium Rescue - greater of # of seats or 4 per unit
    Light Rescue/Service - # of seats

    Minimum is 12 per department regardless of seats. So if you only have 2 pumpers with 2 seats you still request 12 packs to meet NFPA 1720 & 1901.

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    Brian
    I'm a little confused. I thought the 12 minimum is an ISO only requirment and AFG funds seated positions only per NFPA 1901. Could you clarify?

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    ISO only means what it means because of NFPA. Plus initial attack requires 2 handlines and a search team, or handline, search, vent. Either way 3 packed teams, which means at least 2 more for RIT and if you read NFPA & OSHA strictly that's 2out for every 2in, so if 6 in then 6 out. They haven't argued with it yet as a stance. Departments have asked for fewer if they don't turn out the FFs to the calls and there's been no issue, but if you want as many as you can justify 12 is the minimum number.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    .... but if you want as many as you can justify 12 is the minimum number.
    And as a good chance you will have one or two out of service for repair, gone to training etc don't short yourself on what is actually available for a call.

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    Thanks Brian. Last month at our AFG workshop our regional rep. was asked that very question about how many scba you can ask for. His answer was AFG will only fund the amount of seated positions. Period. 2 seats, 2 scba, 5 seats 5 scba, etc. He said nothing about the 12 minimum. I know you are well informed on this stuff. I can only hope that he is wrong and peer review sees it your way....

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    Haven't had a problem yet.

    And of course he was wrong, they have to adhere to NFPA and 1901 says the above minimums no matter how many seats. The people that do these workshops are trying the best they can but I don't think they get the training and support they need to know all of this. Can't fault the person if the system fails, and it's a big system so little things get lost here and there. Still can't complain too much about the program, still the best and most efficient one out there, no contest. And the people are trying their best to make sure the right thing is done by us, most are ex-Fire Service so they've been there.

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    If I understand you right then, if our single cab truck is the pumper and the tanker has a 5 man cab, I can ask for 12 SCBA to meet NFPA 1720 and 1901 standards, for min. per station, and it should not reduce my chances over asking for numbers that match seating #.

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    Nope. I work with a lot of people with only 2 person trucks, some with only 1 big truck and rest brush, and we still get 12. If you have over 12 seats on frontline pumpers, aerials/quints, heavy/medium rescue, then they take out tankers, brush, ambulance, and command cars. You can argue for the safety officer and ambulances if they are staffed with firefighters and the response staffing says you can turn out the people. Anything is possible if backed up properly.

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    Thanks a lot that answers a lot of questions I had. I guess from reading another thread here we would maybe hurt our chances by including a compressor. Currently we drive about 15 miles one way to fill our bottles. It works, so might be best to leave it that way?

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    The more projects you have the more arguments you have to win. So if you win SCBA and not the compressor, you get nada. Better to win one.

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    I guess I still need a little help. After reading through NFPA 1720, 1901, 1851, and 1720 I still can not find where it says 12 packs min. per station. I really would like to ask for 12 but i would like be able to read where it says that first. Also if anyone has a successful narrative they don't mind sharing, I am working on my first AFG so I will take all the help I can get
    Last edited by grasstrimmer; 04-20-2009 at 02:35 AM.

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    Remember in this run, in means interior, which means wearing PPE and SCBA so...

    NFPA 1720

    4.6 Initial Attack.
    4.6.6 The fire department shall have the capability for sustained operations, including fire suppression; engagement in search and rescue, forcible entry, ventilation, and preservation of property; accountability for personnel; a dedicated rapid intervention crew (RIC); and provision of support activities for those situations that are beyond the capability of the initial attack.

    Attack - 2
    S&R - 2
    Ventilation - 2

    Strictly interpreting 2in/2out says you have to put 6 in for 1720, have to have 6 out per OSHA. Even if you interpret it as only 2 out no matter how many in, then there's always what they teach us in FF1:

    Attack: 2 on line plus officer, total 3
    Backup: 2
    Search & Rescue: 2-3
    Roof Ventilation: 2-3

    That makes 8-11 just as initial operations. Depending on your SOPs might be able to argue more than that, but that's where you'd have to back up anything more than 12 with your average response staffing being above 12. If it's not stick to the 12.

    Remember 1720 doesn't care how they get there, all it requires is that they show up and have the equipment to handle the fire whether they rode your only truck in, drove POV, ran, walked, biked, whatever.

    Things like this are why my golf clubs miss me. Y'all think I goof around in the non-AFG season. Au contraire, it's always grant season to me. Hence the reason we raise so much $$ every year. 'Cause it's more fun than anything else! Getting loopy, time for bed, gotta be up in 5 for more narratives....

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    Smile

    Well that makes sense. I read that section 5 times trying to see something like that. guess I was looking for it in BRIGHT BOLD LETTERS. Thanks BC79er

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    Pumper/Quints/Aerials/Heavy or Medium Rescue - greater of # of seats or 4 per unit
    Light Rescue/Service - # of seats

    Minimum is 12 per department regardless of seats. So if you only have 2 pumpers with 2 seats you still request 12 packs to meet NFPA 1720 & 1901.

    Might be true most of the time, but we asked for 15 packs and were cut to just 9. Reason being our seating positions (minus brush rigs cause they don't count). This is what they told me(even mentioned NPFA 1720).

    Anyway, 9 packs are much better than 0.
    Just someone trying to help! (And by the way....Thanks for YOUR help!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by THEFIRENUT View Post
    Might be true most of the time, but we asked for 15 packs and were cut to just 9. Reason being our seating positions (minus brush rigs cause they don't count). This is what they told me(even mentioned NPFA 1720).

    Anyway, 9 packs are much better than 0.
    You should have appealed that. Supposed to be seats in ALL FD operated/controlled vehicles. Regardless on qty of water or pump.

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    AFG only funds pumpers, aerials, heavy/medium rescues at 4 min or # of seats, whichever is higher. Quick attacks/mini-pumpers if designed for structural can get at least 2. Brush fires don't require SCBA so brush rigs don't have SCBA required in NFPA 1901. I think # of bodies got Rick's count reduced also. They're starting to play that average response staffing game now to get cheaper on people. Which to me isn't solving the issues. Better to completely solve one problem than have 2-3 half-baked solutions just to claim the money was spread around.

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    If you are asking for more air packs than the seated position on the truck, for example the commercial cab with only 2 riding positions you will have to justify it in you narrative.

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