1. #1
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    Question Brush truck definition in application

    I've looked at it about 6 times now, and I'm curious about the Brush Truck definition in the application. If I'm reading this right...

    Brush/Quick attack (pumping capacity of less than 750 gpm and water carrying capacity of at least 300 gallons):

    So I have one truck (purchased with AFG funds last year- due to be delivered in a month or so ) that has a 300 gallon tank, but our soon be be referred to as "older" truck only carrys 225 gallon. The soon to be retired truck also has a 225 gallon tank. Are we to understand that for this purpose we shouldn't even count trucks with less than 300 gallon? In any other application I would. In the grand scheme of things, I'm thinking I need to count it, plus having a 23 year old brush truck helps the average fleet age thing, but I can't believe that this is the definition AFG meant to use... they do use Class VI and Class VII in the smaller print, which is certainly the smaller tanks.

    Thoughts?

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    Default Curious to

    all my brush trucks have 250 gallon tanks - so does that mean I don't have any?

    Had the same situation a couple years ago - we got a grant for a tanker, (2500 gallon, 1250 gpm pump). The next year, the changed the definition of a tanker to having a pump 750 gpm or less, so technically I didn't have a tanker.

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    That's a good question for your award specialist. If you do contact him/her and get an answer, post it here please. I would be interested in knowing how they would want those changes recorded.

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    Wink

    If you replaced your 23 year old brush truck with AFG funds, you're supposed to get rid of it because it's deemed not safe anymore for emergency services. In your close out they should ask you how you disposed of the vehicle. On the other hand, if you're just using it for this year's apps since you have not received the new one, then lucky you for getting to use it again! Good luck!

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    In the app itself it says what is what more clearly than the PG:

    Brush Engine: (Grass Truck or Rig, Patrol, Attack, Mini-Pumper, Booster, CAFS etc.) a small apparatus primarily designed for fighting wild land fires and is often equipped with four-wheel drive to improve its off-road capabilities. The vehicle must be manufactured and equipped to comply with NFPA 1906.

    That's last year's rundown but in the brief moment I looked it all over from this year seemed to be about the same. Except they finally NIMSed it, we can no longer request tanker in the dropdown. Well, tanker is the heading but then it's foam tanker, tender, foam pumper/tanker. Begs the question why it isn't a foam tender...you say tomato, I say tomahto...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcfdrichey25 View Post
    If you replaced your 23 year old brush truck with AFG funds, you're supposed to get rid of it because it's deemed not safe anymore for emergency services. In your close out they should ask you how you disposed of the vehicle. On the other hand, if you're just using it for this year's apps since you have not received the new one, then lucky you for getting to use it again! Good luck!
    No- the 23 year old brush truck is what we refer to as our "new" truck- the one we're replacing is 33 years old. Of course, once the AFG funded brush truck arrives the 33 year old truck comes off the road, the bubble light on top comes off, the radio comes out, we paint over the FD logo, we pull the tank and pump out of the bed and we see if any of the dozens of people who have said they want to buy it for farm work actually put their money where their mouth has been! Then the 23 year old truck becomes the "old brush truck"... though it's still in fine shape. Acually, my department has looked at the design for our new one and is now thinking of ways to retrofit the 23 y/o to have a flat bed with storage compartments like the new one will have, but that's a lower priority for us now- it's time to work on the 25 y/o engine!

    For this years application, I'm already listing the AFG funded truck since there's a fair chance it'll be delivered by the time the application is due. (and by extension, I'm not listing the 33 y/o)

    I'm fairly confident that there will be no problem listing the 23 year old truck as a brush truck even though it only has a 225 gallon tank, since it walks like a brush truck, looks like a brush truck and squawks like a brush truck, but if I actually get awarded for an engine this year, I don't want to be audited and have the auditor mention that the pickup truck with the tank in the back shouldn't have been counted toward my average fleet age (15 year with truck, 12 something without it) and then worry if that's going to change the eligibility of the award. I'll try and get an answer this week and post it here-

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    Default Brush Truck

    Anyone know what the average price for a 2009 grass rig is? When I say grass rig I'm talking about a 1 ton 4 x 4 pick up chassis with a flat bed, 250 gallon water tank and 300 gpm pump. Were seeking funding thru AFG to replace our 35 year old Grass rig. Right now it looks like it will cost $31,000.00 to replace the truck and I wanted to be sure that is inline with other grass rig prices. Thanks

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    That seems extremely reasonable.

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    Default Brush Truck

    I felt it was a fair price. We have worked with a dealership to get a good discounted price on the chassis. Were trying to cut down on costs by doing the work ourselves and reuseing everything that is in good condition. I've tried to research prices of other grass rigs and haven't had much luck. I was needing to know if I requested the funds from AFG I would be in the ballpark. Thanks

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    Thumbs up

    I spoke with the help desk this morning, and the agent I spoke with said that if we consider a vehicle to be a brush truck, regardless of the water tank size, then we should count it in our fleet numbers. So there you go. He didn't know why the 300 gallon tank was added to the definition was added this year, but agreed that many of us have tanks in the 200-250 gallon range.

    In our case, we're applying to replace an open cab, 25 year old pumper, so the brush truck question was only to help our average fleet age (we're not replacing the brush truck, it's still a spry 23 ) so if you're looking to replace a brush truck, you may want to be sure to note in your narrative that the truck you're counting only has a 200 something tank but you're counting it anyway because it's a front line responding apparatus.

    Mikey- IMHO I think you're a little low on your price... remember they want you to make it NFPA 1906 compliant, so that means upper and lower emergency lights and all that. That can add up fast. An aluminum flat bed is going to be lighter but costs more. We were awarded $89,000 last year to replace another brush truck (1975 F-250) with a Dodge 5500 cab & chassis (don't bother starting the debate over single rear end vs. dually... we've been back and forth here about it and decided that the additional GVWR was worth it, besides if the field is on fire, it probably isn't that wet!) with aluminum deck, 300 gallon water tank and simple 8 gallon foam system, 9000 lb winch, and pump. We're reusing existing hose and tools. We're going from a pickup truck with rakes and hose and saw and everything just bouncing around in the back to a much safer vehicle with everything stored in compartments where it won't become projectiles in the event of an accident. So what I'm saying is at a 5% match, don't shortchange yourself! I've seen some $125,000 brush trucks awarded... that's far more than what we needed, and at $89,000 we're getting a really nice truck that's going to do a lot for us, but with our population it worked out to around $1 per citizen per year over the life of the truck, and that seemed to work. Make sure you've got enough to cover what it'll take to do the job right.

    At least that's what I think... Good luck!

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    Single vs dually depends on your dirt. Down here it's clay, duallys get caked in between the wheels and then end up being lawn ornaments. Seen some people start to go super single, but best animals around here for off-road are 1 tons with beefed springs and mudding tires. More rock based then can probably get away with dually.

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    Default Bigger Grass Rig

    We are looking at asking for a larger grass rig - either a new 4x4 or 6x6 chassis with 1000~1500 gallons. Their are times that we may be a mile or more back into a pasture away from the tankers - and with a pickup with 250 gallons we end up spending a lot of time going back to get water.

    Anyone get a grass rig bigger than a puickup? Or do we call a truck like that something else?

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    That fits in the other Type definitions. WUI would be a pumper for sure, that size tank might put you in wildland tanker/tender, which is plain tender category at last check.

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    mitchkrat,
    You are talking about an Urban Interface Engine, or just a straight up wildland tender. Check out my threads to see about the urban interfaces (500-100gallons though) and see the following link

    http://drakescrossingfire.com/448.html

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    Default Limits

    Whats' the funding limit on Quick Attacks and Interface Engines?

    I currently have 1 engine, 2 tankers, 3 grass pickups, a midi pumper and a rescue.

    I'm torn between going for a bigger grass rig and getting something to combine the midi pumper (1988 Peirce 2x4 400 steel tank, 400 gpm pump) and the rescue (86 SVI).


    Right now, we when the roads are bad we send a grass pickup and a good tow strap with the Rescue on med calls.

    On MVA's, we send the Rescue first, the midi pumper 2nd. We have had a couple MVA's in the past few years where we had people trapped and the car on fire. It would have been nice to have had water on the Rescue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchkrat View Post
    Whats' the funding limit on Quick Attacks and Interface Engines?

    I currently have 1 engine, 2 tankers, 3 grass pickups, a midi pumper and a rescue.

    I'm torn between going for a bigger grass rig and getting something to combine the midi pumper (1988 Peirce 2x4 400 steel tank, 400 gpm pump) and the rescue (86 SVI).


    Right now, we when the roads are bad we send a grass pickup and a good tow strap with the Rescue on med calls.

    On MVA's, we send the Rescue first, the midi pumper 2nd. We have had a couple MVA's in the past few years where we had people trapped and the car on fire. It would have been nice to have had water on the Rescue.
    We got capped at $125K with our quick attack. I have no idea on the caps on the interface pumpers, though.

    One reason we went with a quick attack rather than a Class X pumper (mini-or midi-pumper) was to stay with NFPA 1906 instead of NFPA 1901, as 1906 has less required equipment (hose, etc.).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey14 View Post
    Anyone know what the average price for a 2009 grass rig is? When I say grass rig I'm talking about a 1 ton 4 x 4 pick up chassis with a flat bed, 250 gallon water tank and 300 gpm pump. Were seeking funding thru AFG to replace our 35 year old Grass rig. Right now it looks like it will cost $31,000.00 to replace the truck and I wanted to be sure that is inline with other grass rig prices. Thanks
    I'd suggest going to the F550. Unless you get the diesel price increase is not significant (even if you were paying 100%). If terrain requires then put singles on the rear (and front). The additional GVW will serve you well. 250gal is a significant load on a light duty vehicle (F series anything).

    Don't shortchange the project effectiveness. If you make it thru the gates $50000 or $75000 is not going to make a difference. Put on the Cl A foam, Include NFPA safety lighting, 12V scene lights, radios, equipment boxes etc. You'll likely come out ahead selling what you have and replacing the entire thing with a new unit that will last you 25years rather than piecing together old stuff with new. Then in 5 years you'll be looking to replace the old stuff.

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    Has anyone been successful in getting funded for a CAFS unit on a brush unit? If so, I would be interested in seeing your narrative. Thanks.

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    Exclamation Types of trucks

    I'm still a little confused here -


    I have a 2500 gallon truck with a 1250 gpm pump - with the current rules I would count this an engine because the pump excedes 750 gpm.

    So I would have:

    2 engines (both have 1250 gpm pumps, one has a 1000 gallon tank, one has a 2500 gallon tank)

    1 tanker (2000 gallons, 250 gpm pump)

    1 Rescue

    4 Grass rigs (1 w/ 400 gallon tank, 400 gpm pump but 2x4, 3 w. 250 gallon tanks, 250 gpm pumps)

    I still wonder if those 250 gallon rigs should be counted as grass rigs - there had to be some reason why they stated that on the application.

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    You have it right there my good man. Anything that drives off-road for vegetation fires is a brush truck even with smaller than 400gal tanks. The 400gal thing is a typo/miscommunication in their part.

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    Just for figuring purposes we just put in service an F550 with alum flatbed and side boxes with 350 gal.water & 15 gal foam. 42 horse diesel CAFS with a 250 gpm pump and 75 CFM compressor.
    Price came in at 125k

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    You have it right there my good man. Anything that drives off-road for vegetation fires is a brush truck even with smaller than 400gal tanks. The 400gal thing is a typo/miscommunication in their part.
    One would think the 750 gpm limit for tanker to pumper would be a typo also. It baffles me that a vehicle with a 3000 gallon tank is considered a pumper because of pump size. A vehicle with a 1000 gallon tank with under 750 gpm pump is a tanker. Does not make much sense to me!!

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    Not a typo, but apparently they had to pick something that distinguished between the two and gpm was it. NFPA still has 1000 gallons as the minimum tank for a water supply truck which t'ain't no water supply buggy in my book. The PG does have it a little off, says pumper is 750 and over, tanker is under 750. Application says pumper over 750, tanker 750 and under.

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    Default 1901 or 1906?

    Would a brush/quick attack on a F550 chassis ( OOPS no brand names) fall under NFPA 1901 or 1906? Main need is brush off road capable, that is able to fill tenders and hit car fires. Asked for 4 SCBA with it too. Thanks for your words of wisdom.

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    Depends on pump. If it's under 500gpm then it's brush and 1906, then no SCBA since brush don't get them.

    Chassis doesn't matter on brand name, they look at the final manufacturer since chassis choices are limited in that realm and it's a truck builder making the final product. 1.5 ton is really only F550 and GMC5500 anyway.

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