1. #51
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    Hmmmn,here's a novel approach.Do a VES, NO HANDLINE,crawl down a smoke charged hallway and come to a burning room and contents,door is open.You have no line,how do you control the raging beast(fire)? How about CLOSING the fooking door? Doesn't require Macho,doesn't require a line,water,or a can.Just the ability to engage ones BRAIN and do what FIREFIGHTERS do,control the fire.Of course you can always stand out front and wait for it to come to you. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp? I know,it won't work.Except here and most of the rest of the country.Oh,by the way:if you look under Buff's avitar it will give you vital clues to his whereabouts.Kinda like doing a PROPER sizeup. T.C.

  2. #52
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    LA...

    You are a double talking embarassment to the fire service.

    I want to be there at the call with mom and dad on the front lawn screaming that their baby is up stairs and see you look them in the eye and say "No, we aren't going in there. We don't have enough people to save your baby." Because if it was me as dad, you would have to kill me to stop me from trying to rescue my own baby. And if you aren't going, in and you are intent on stopping me, you better kill me because if you don't you would never have a moment of peace for the rest of your life.

    I want to be there to see the faces of YOUR firefighters when you tell them NO, when they can hear the victim screaming in the home, or mom and dad are screaming and crying on the front lawn.

    Searching without a hoseline is standard in many FD's across the country, VES is standard in many FD's across the country, and actually wanting to do the job and not be a poser is standard in MOST FD's across the country.

    AND for the last time you do not need a TRUCK to do truck company work. You just need to actually understand what firefighting is to know that truck work still needs to be done whether you have a truck or not.

  3. #53
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    Yeah that is a pretty sorry thing for you to say LA. You're a joke.

    Around here, of course the first choice is to search with a line. If the situation calls for it, VES can and will be used. Within the last month our department has made a rescue using VES. I am a firm believer that when the situation calls for it, and fire and scene conditions allow, VES is a life saving technique that has and will continue to save lives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  4. #54
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    Would I ever, under any circumstances, ever perform any search without a line again? No.
    So you would have stood in the yard and let this defenseless baby die. Nice.
    You're a ******bag...pretty straightforward, huh?
    I'm confused.
    You're not confused; you're just a dick.

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    I want to be there at the call with mom and dad on the front lawn screaming that their baby is up stairs and see you look them in the eye and say "No, we aren't going in there. We don't have enough people to save your baby." Because if it was me as dad, you would have to kill me to stop me from trying to rescue my own baby. And if you aren't going, in and you are intent on stopping me, you better kill me because if you don't you would never have a moment of peace for the rest of your life.

    So where did I say I wasn't going to save the baby?

    Obviously, if someone in the hose told us there was a victim, we would do a search.

    In that case we have credible information.

    And in this case, fire conditions appeared minimal, so risk appeared managable.

    I would have stretched a handline up the ladder and required it to be brought into the room though based on the quantity of smoke viable. Delay to do that would have been minimal.


    Here is the quote. Tell me precisely where I said I would not save the baby. I am waiting. Where?

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    I would have stretched a handline up the ladder and required it to be brought into the room though based on the quantity of smoke viable. Delay to do that would have been minimal.
    You arrogant punk. You think this baby had time to wait on your ****ing hose to be dragged up a ladder?
    All you have is **** you've read in a book. These guys did what had to be done. They put their lives on the line to save a child and you want to degrade them as stupid or "macho." When called on it, you change directions more than a bumper car at Coney Island. Go **** yourself. The fire service has enough over-educated dickholes telling the real firefighters how to do their jobs.

  7. #57
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    Would I ever, under any circumstances, ever perform any search without a line again? No.
    So you would have stood in the yard and let this defenseless baby die. Nice.
    You're a ******bag...pretty straightforward, huh?
    Quote:
    I'm confused.
    You're not confused; you're just a dick.


    No.

    Same question. Where did I say I would not make entry.

    Here the quote, again, for you:

    Obviously, if someone in the hose told us there was a victim, we would do a search.

    In that case we have credible information.

    And in this case, fire conditions appeared minimal, so risk appeared managable.

    I would have stretched a handline up the ladder and required it to be brought into the room though based on the quantity of smoke viable. Delay to do that would have been minimal.


    Ok tell me where i said i would not have made the rescue.

    Yes, I would have stretched a line from our engine (which by the way would have been where the ladder came from), carried the line up the ladder and charged in prior to making entry.

    The quanity of smoke demanded that.

    But again, where did I say I would not have made the rescue? Point it out to me?

  8. #58
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    Here is the quote. Tell me precisely where I said I would not save the baby. I am waiting. Where?
    You unbelievable asshat. You plainly called searching away from or without a handline "macho crap" and said you would NEVER do it. This baby would have died waiting on your stupid tactics. She most likely had seconds to live. What the **** is your problem?
    GO AWAY!

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    I would have stretched a handline up the ladder and required it to be brought into the room though based on the quantity of smoke viable. Delay to do that would have been minimal.
    Right, minimal delay. Tell me this genius. You have one guy inside searching, you have a deputy chief masking up to assist. no one else is in the video, except the med who carries the baby off to the ambulance. WHO is gonna advance the hose line? We can't tell from the view, but my guess is the engine crew is already advancing on the fire through the front door. This was an example of excellent work by the search crew. In quick, rapid search, make the grab, hand off to the Deputy Chief on the ladder who gave it rescue breaths, who hands off to another firefighter (Probably a medic). The baby survived and was home I think in a week.

    A hoseline would have slowed the entire process down and burdened the crew with unnecessary weight and bulk. It may well have been impossible to get in place because of the crew size. It may have cost the baby its life.

    Do as you wish in LA, but this is how both of my FD's operate and will continue to do so.

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    Not only in the same thread, but on the same page, does it show you saying you would NEVER attempt rescue without a hose line, and then you advocate VES.

    What an idiot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  11. #61
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    Hey ...

    These guys did what had to be done. They put their lives on the line to save a child and you want to degrade them as stupid or "macho.


    If you read up about 10 posts I said I considered VES a valid tool.

    I never called VES "macho".

    Read up. Read. Twist my word if you want but I was pretty clear about the validity of VES in 2 posts on this same damn page. So if you are going to call me out, call me out accuratly at least.

    My firefighters don't have the level of experience to operate in that situation safely without a handline. Maybe the department pictured does. Maybe yours does. But mine does not and likely never will.

    I did not say "They should have a ..."

    So don't get on my *** about how I criticized them. I never did. Quote the word where I said anything about what they should have done.

    I challenge you to find that.

    I said "I would have ......" and I stand by that as it's the way I would have conducted the operation.

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    Do as you wish in LA, but this is how both of my FD's operate and will continue to do so.
    You're damned right.
    Not only in the same thread, but on the same page, does it show you saying you would NEVER attempt rescue without a hose line, and then you advocate VES.
    That's why I moved fast on this one. Pretty damned convenient, isn't it? Makes it easy to corner this double-talking asshat without searching multiple pages.

  13. #63
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    Read up. Read. Twist my word if you want but I was pretty clear about the validity of VES in 2 posts on this same damn page. So if you are going to call me out, call me out accuratly at least.
    Nobody is twisting your words you loser.
    Go away.

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    Twist. twist. twist.

    Not only in the same thread, but on the same page, does it show you saying you would NEVER attempt rescue without a hose line, and then you advocate VES.

    What an idiot.


    GT ...

    Yes, I advocated VES as a tool for busy departments w2ith experienced personnel.

    I said VES was a valid tool.

    However, nowhere did i say I would perform VES. In fact I stated I could not as the department does not recognize it as valid tool.

    The next paragraph read:

    I don't know how well it would work on a department such as mine though. It is a skill that requires a lot of training, but more importantly, requires a lot of fire ground experience performing it to be done safely. As a department, we simply don't have enough firs that require search on a yearly basis for a significant portion of our department to get much, if any, fireground experience.

    I see it as an excellent tool which does reduce the risk for a busy department.


    I never stated that I would do it, and, I clearly stated that I had reservations about it as technique on my department.

    I did state that it could be a excellent tool on busy departments.

    Show me where I said I would do it?








    I don't know how well it would work on a department such as mine though. It is a skill that requires a lot of training, but more importantly, requires a lot of fire ground experience performing it to be done safely. As a department, we simply don't have enough firs that require search on a yearly basis for a significant portion of our department to get much, if any, fireground experience.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-19-2009 at 09:24 PM.

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    Read up. Read. Twist my word if you want but I was pretty clear about the validity of VES in 2 posts on this same damn page. So if you are going to call me out, call me out accuratly at least.
    Who the hell performs VES with a damned handline?? Anyone here drag a handline with them on VES in rooms on upper floors? WTF?

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    Not only in the same thread, but on the same page, does it show you saying you would NEVER attempt rescue without a hose line, and then you advocate VES.

    See above post.

    Note the word busy departments.

    Note the entire paragraph on why I felt it would not be an appropriate tool for my department. I think that paragraph is written pretty clearly.

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    I see it as an excellent tool which does reduce the risk for a busy department.
    What the **** does how busy a department is have to do with getting a trapped baby out of a second floor bedroom???
    It is a skill that requires a lot of training, but more importantly, requires a lot of fire ground experience performing it to be done safely.
    You frickin' moron...that's the point! It can't be done "safely!" Jesus H. Christ, where did you ever get the notion to have anything to do with the fire service?
    As a department, we simply don't have enough firs that require search on a yearly basis for a significant portion of our department to get much, if any, fireground experience.
    You backpedaling POS...it's a baby trapped; go ****ing get her!

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    Who the hell performs VES with a damned handline?? Anyone here drag a handline with them on VES in rooms on upper floors? WTF?

    In that scenario, and handline stretch would have taken all of 60-90 seconds.

    It was a room on the 2nd floor.

    And what if he had gotten in there and fire had been between him and the baby?

    Or fire rolled over the ceiling before he made it back to the window?

  19. #69
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    Geeeeeez ...

    Stick to one damn topic.

    The 2 posts from VES discussion have nothing to do with the scenerio discussion.

    Pick one or the other and stop mixing quotes.

    As a department, we simply don't have enough firs that require search on a yearly basis for a significant portion of our department to get much, if any, fireground experience.

    Was referring to VES, not the damn rescue. yes, we would have gone and gotten her, but with a handline.

    You frickin' moron...that's the point! It can't be done "safely!" Jesus H. Christ, where did you ever get the notion to have anything to do with the fire service?

    VES is a highly dangerous technique that takes training and experience. Nothing on the fireground is safe. But it sure isn't smart to employ a technique that requires experience to do with a minimum of risk on a department that works 10-15 working structure fires a year.

    I see it as an excellent tool which does reduce the risk for a busy department

    Again from the VES discussion, 7 posts up, not from the baby discussion. I never made that quote in any of the bay discussions.

    Referring to the limitations of VES to busier departments.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-19-2009 at 09:23 PM.

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    There's a "tool"in here and it has NOTHING to do with VES. Which IS NOT practiced in Bossier parrish WITHOUT a handline.Just like tobacco,cut and dried. T.C.

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    So where it is written that handlines are evil?

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    I thought you were on a NY dept.And you never had fire rolling over your head? With NO line? I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**. Good vid Robert,fits the scenerio. How'd you find it? T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    I know that some depts perform initial attack entry for search and rescue without a handline. My question is why exactly and really how much time is saved? It was drilled into us from day 1 that a hoseline was your lifeline. Our trucks were and still are set up with 50 meters on preconnect, with 2 extra 15 meter lengths right beside for extra hose. Also we had a hose clamp and practiced at least weekly with add-on-the-fly. Each truck is equiped with 2 of these preconnects. How prevalent is this across the country? Anybody want to comment on pros and cons on search and rescue without a hand line?
    Because not every place it the same. Manpower, equipment, training, response demographics, experience, tradition, and history all play into why departments do what they do.
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    101 ..

    Yes I did. And by 10 years into my career, I learned that wasn't a smart way to do business.

    And that was in the past. And will stay in the past.

    Now i live by a simple english motto ... "Where I go a handline shall alwest goest wist me".

    For me old school no handlines operations ain't my school anymore.

    And hasn't been for almost 20 years.

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    Mebbee when you have to drag it off and in and time is a wee bit on the short side? Do you have any clue how to read smoke? And the smoke in the video would you be telling you what? It would be telling ME those guys made a CORRECT judgement,with the RIGHT tactic and tools,and the parents have a live child to cherish instead of a photograph.OUTSTANDING JOB! T.C.

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