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  1. #61
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    Hey ...

    These guys did what had to be done. They put their lives on the line to save a child and you want to degrade them as stupid or "macho.


    If you read up about 10 posts I said I considered VES a valid tool.

    I never called VES "macho".

    Read up. Read. Twist my word if you want but I was pretty clear about the validity of VES in 2 posts on this same damn page. So if you are going to call me out, call me out accuratly at least.

    My firefighters don't have the level of experience to operate in that situation safely without a handline. Maybe the department pictured does. Maybe yours does. But mine does not and likely never will.

    I did not say "They should have a ..."

    So don't get on my *** about how I criticized them. I never did. Quote the word where I said anything about what they should have done.

    I challenge you to find that.

    I said "I would have ......" and I stand by that as it's the way I would have conducted the operation.


  2. #62
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    Do as you wish in LA, but this is how both of my FD's operate and will continue to do so.
    You're damned right.
    Not only in the same thread, but on the same page, does it show you saying you would NEVER attempt rescue without a hose line, and then you advocate VES.
    That's why I moved fast on this one. Pretty damned convenient, isn't it? Makes it easy to corner this double-talking asshat without searching multiple pages.

  3. #63
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    Read up. Read. Twist my word if you want but I was pretty clear about the validity of VES in 2 posts on this same damn page. So if you are going to call me out, call me out accuratly at least.
    Nobody is twisting your words you loser.
    Go away.

  4. #64
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    Twist. twist. twist.

    Not only in the same thread, but on the same page, does it show you saying you would NEVER attempt rescue without a hose line, and then you advocate VES.

    What an idiot.


    GT ...

    Yes, I advocated VES as a tool for busy departments w2ith experienced personnel.

    I said VES was a valid tool.

    However, nowhere did i say I would perform VES. In fact I stated I could not as the department does not recognize it as valid tool.

    The next paragraph read:

    I don't know how well it would work on a department such as mine though. It is a skill that requires a lot of training, but more importantly, requires a lot of fire ground experience performing it to be done safely. As a department, we simply don't have enough firs that require search on a yearly basis for a significant portion of our department to get much, if any, fireground experience.

    I see it as an excellent tool which does reduce the risk for a busy department.


    I never stated that I would do it, and, I clearly stated that I had reservations about it as technique on my department.

    I did state that it could be a excellent tool on busy departments.

    Show me where I said I would do it?








    I don't know how well it would work on a department such as mine though. It is a skill that requires a lot of training, but more importantly, requires a lot of fire ground experience performing it to be done safely. As a department, we simply don't have enough firs that require search on a yearly basis for a significant portion of our department to get much, if any, fireground experience.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-19-2009 at 09:24 PM.

  5. #65
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    Read up. Read. Twist my word if you want but I was pretty clear about the validity of VES in 2 posts on this same damn page. So if you are going to call me out, call me out accuratly at least.
    Who the hell performs VES with a damned handline?? Anyone here drag a handline with them on VES in rooms on upper floors? WTF?

  6. #66
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    Not only in the same thread, but on the same page, does it show you saying you would NEVER attempt rescue without a hose line, and then you advocate VES.

    See above post.

    Note the word busy departments.

    Note the entire paragraph on why I felt it would not be an appropriate tool for my department. I think that paragraph is written pretty clearly.

  7. #67
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    I see it as an excellent tool which does reduce the risk for a busy department.
    What the **** does how busy a department is have to do with getting a trapped baby out of a second floor bedroom???
    It is a skill that requires a lot of training, but more importantly, requires a lot of fire ground experience performing it to be done safely.
    You frickin' moron...that's the point! It can't be done "safely!" Jesus H. Christ, where did you ever get the notion to have anything to do with the fire service?
    As a department, we simply don't have enough firs that require search on a yearly basis for a significant portion of our department to get much, if any, fireground experience.
    You backpedaling POS...it's a baby trapped; go ****ing get her!

  8. #68
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    Who the hell performs VES with a damned handline?? Anyone here drag a handline with them on VES in rooms on upper floors? WTF?

    In that scenario, and handline stretch would have taken all of 60-90 seconds.

    It was a room on the 2nd floor.

    And what if he had gotten in there and fire had been between him and the baby?

    Or fire rolled over the ceiling before he made it back to the window?

  9. #69
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    Geeeeeez ...

    Stick to one damn topic.

    The 2 posts from VES discussion have nothing to do with the scenerio discussion.

    Pick one or the other and stop mixing quotes.

    As a department, we simply don't have enough firs that require search on a yearly basis for a significant portion of our department to get much, if any, fireground experience.

    Was referring to VES, not the damn rescue. yes, we would have gone and gotten her, but with a handline.

    You frickin' moron...that's the point! It can't be done "safely!" Jesus H. Christ, where did you ever get the notion to have anything to do with the fire service?

    VES is a highly dangerous technique that takes training and experience. Nothing on the fireground is safe. But it sure isn't smart to employ a technique that requires experience to do with a minimum of risk on a department that works 10-15 working structure fires a year.

    I see it as an excellent tool which does reduce the risk for a busy department

    Again from the VES discussion, 7 posts up, not from the baby discussion. I never made that quote in any of the bay discussions.

    Referring to the limitations of VES to busier departments.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-19-2009 at 09:23 PM.

  10. #70
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    There's a "tool"in here and it has NOTHING to do with VES. Which IS NOT practiced in Bossier parrish WITHOUT a handline.Just like tobacco,cut and dried. T.C.

  11. #71
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    So where it is written that handlines are evil?

  12. #72
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    I thought you were on a NY dept.And you never had fire rolling over your head? With NO line? I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**. Good vid Robert,fits the scenerio. How'd you find it? T.C.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    I know that some depts perform initial attack entry for search and rescue without a handline. My question is why exactly and really how much time is saved? It was drilled into us from day 1 that a hoseline was your lifeline. Our trucks were and still are set up with 50 meters on preconnect, with 2 extra 15 meter lengths right beside for extra hose. Also we had a hose clamp and practiced at least weekly with add-on-the-fly. Each truck is equiped with 2 of these preconnects. How prevalent is this across the country? Anybody want to comment on pros and cons on search and rescue without a hand line?
    Because not every place it the same. Manpower, equipment, training, response demographics, experience, tradition, and history all play into why departments do what they do.
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  14. #74
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    101 ..

    Yes I did. And by 10 years into my career, I learned that wasn't a smart way to do business.

    And that was in the past. And will stay in the past.

    Now i live by a simple english motto ... "Where I go a handline shall alwest goest wist me".

    For me old school no handlines operations ain't my school anymore.

    And hasn't been for almost 20 years.

  15. #75
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    Mebbee when you have to drag it off and in and time is a wee bit on the short side? Do you have any clue how to read smoke? And the smoke in the video would you be telling you what? It would be telling ME those guys made a CORRECT judgement,with the RIGHT tactic and tools,and the parents have a live child to cherish instead of a photograph.OUTSTANDING JOB! T.C.

  16. #76
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    Good vid Robert,fits the scenerio. How'd you find it? T.C.
    Easy. I went to youtube.com and did a search on people were not saved by gutless coward dickholes who think they're smarter than everyone else. I searched under people saved by gutless coward dickholes, but got zero returns. Go figure, huh?

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.
    Best qoute of the thread. Signature material.

    Seeing as how VES usualy takes ONE man, size of department or the size of the responding crew makes no difference. If I pull up with me, myself and my fire truck, I can perform an adeqaute VES BY MYSELF. It takes a man, gear with SCBA and a tool. That is all.

    So it doesnt matter if I am alone or with a full crew. If it is needed and I can jusitfy it, I am going in. LA can sit on the sidelines and watch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  18. #78
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    I'm sure dickhole would want the catcher fired immediately because he dared climb a ladder without a helmet on.

  19. #79
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    Well the "new"school ain't all it's cracked up to be. There is a way to do a good job,practice good fireamatics,be aggressive and STILL go home at night. Your tactics DO NOT agree with mine but I'm pretty sure I can find a few in here that might follow me into the fray. You,on the other hand,won't be in that lot. And I'm dubious on your follower count minus the crow,who's played the computer more than the knob. Be happy you found a "roost" 'cause you wouldn't make it thru the front door here.And I'm not usually this blunt,but your commentary to my Houston brothers and sisters has hit a REALLy raw nerve. T.C.

  20. #80
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    I teach a smoke reading class on a department and regional level.

    Smoke was somewhat thin, intermittent and laminar (non-turbulent) through a non-restrictive opening, meaning the fire did not have a tremendous amount of heat or pressure. Fire was still in the early stages of development.

    Two reads, depending upon your tactical perspective:

    The fire was limited in nature and was not going to develop quickly. The crew more than likely had sufficiant time to operate in the room without worrying about rapid fire growth, and did not need a handline. That' the more aggressive read.

    or ...

    The fire was limited in nature and was likely not going to develop quickly. The crew had sufficient time to stretch a line and bring it into the room as a precaution and sufficient time to operate in the room before worrying about rapid fire growth, and while they did not need a handline now, it is a wise precaution for crew and victim safety. That's the more conservative, safety-oriented read, which is me.

    Again, point to where I said they made a bad call.

    I'm still waiting on that.

    I would have brought a handline in. In fact, that is our department policy. We search with handlines. We do not use VES. It is not an authorized procedure.

    So it's your recommendation that firefighters violate department SOPs?

    It's ok for them to do what they want and not follow SOPs?

    Even if I felt a handline wasn't needed, which in my opinion it was, it's simply not an option for us. SOPs are there to be followed, not ignored.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 04-19-2009 at 09:46 PM.

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