1. #51
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    I'll shoot an e-mail to the Chief of my last department with 15 years as a chief officer as to how stupid his operation was.

    While I'm at it, I send one to all of the other neighboring Chiefs who operated in the same reckless manner.

    As I said, we don't do it here because of the limited amount of attack hose (compared to past departments) we carry. Because of that, we are usually forced into using a seond engine if we require a 3rd line.

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    When you refer to a limited amount of hose, do you mean that you dont have enough on the truck, or you dont have enough in the department in general? Do you not carry extra/spare hose on the truck?
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    Each engine carries (2) 200' 1.75" pre-connects plus an extra 150' of 1.75" in a dead lay in the hose bed as spare to extend the pre-connects.

    We on occasion have used the dead load as a 3rd attack line.

    We have plenty of hose in the department. It's the chief's choice not to carry a lot of extra attack line, as he does not does not believe we need more than that on each engine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Each engine carries (2) 200' 1.75" pre-connects plus an extra 150' of 1.75" in a dead lay in the hose bed as spare to extend the pre-connects.

    We on occasion have used the dead load as a 3rd attack line.

    We have plenty of hose in the department. It's the chief's choice not to carry a lot of extra attack line, as he does not does not believe we need more than that on each engine.
    So extending hose lines in your department is a foreign concept? What if a section busts? You have to break down another preconnect instead of just rolling out a spare section? No reloading of lines on scene with clean, dry hose instead of the dirty, wet line you just used?

    Call me crazy, but that is just plain dumb.
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    Default Preconnects

    At both of my FD's, all of our preconnects are loaded as a flat load with loops every 50 feet. We have 1 3/4 " and 2 1/2" preconnects. The flat load works best for us, because it is easy to load, easy to deploy, and and very fast for a quick attack. Most of our surrounding FD's use the flat load as well so it is pretty consistant for us. If I had to list any con to using the flat load, it would have to be that there are other loads that flake out easier(the triple load for example). But, with good "Enginemanship" this is not an issue and taking the time to flake out the line and clear the hose bed is good because it slows us down and gives us the 3 1/2 seconds needed to evaluate and size up our lay and the scene.

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    Read.

    We have 2 1.75" 200' preconnects.

    We also have a spare 150' of 1.75" lime in the rear hose bed in a dead load to use to extend the preconnects or connect as a third line.

    We do practice extending line but it is a very rare event we need too. Our 200' preconnects get us where we need to go 98% of the time.

    This compares to 1200' of 1.75" line carried in preconnects and on 2 reels in my past department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'll shoot an e-mail to the Chief of my last department with 15 years as a chief officer as to how stupid his operation was.

    While I'm at it, I send one to all of the other neighboring Chiefs who operated in the same reckless manner.

    As I said, we don't do it here because of the limited amount of attack hose (compared to past departments) we carry. Because of that, we are usually forced into using a seond engine if we require a 3rd line.
    Some how I doubt you'll do this, but please by all means let the Chief come and defend these foolish things you learned from his FD. Your repeated stupidity that you keep blaming on past FD's has to make you a real popular guy with these Chief's. You've painted your past Chief's in a very poor light over the last year's worth of posts on numerous subjects. Either your being honest and they're truly idiots or your full of Sh*t. Frankly I really don't care if one, the other or both are true. Some one better than I should say a prayer for the citizens of these communities.

    You backpedal so much you must be getting younger by the day.

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    Some how I doubt you'll do this, but please by all means let the Chief come and defend these foolish things you learned from his FD. Your repeated stupidity that you keep blaming on past FD's has to make you a real popular guy with these Chief's. You've painted your past Chief's in a very poor light over the last year's worth of posts on numerous subjects. Either your being honest and they're truly idiots or your full of Sh*t. Frankly I really don't care if one, the other or both are true. Some one better than I should say a prayer for the citizens of these communities.

    Hard to beleive but just about everywhere i have worked or volunteered pulling the vasy majority, if not all of the attack lines off a sinfle engine has been the rule.

    New York. Vermont. Louisiana.

    Rural departments. Moderate and dense surburban departments.

    It's in my experience been a very common practice.

    Maybe where you are it isn't, for whatever reason, but everywhere I have been it's been the standard procedure. There have been devations if we were working large fire where using different engines for operations in large structures where a separate attack engine for each sector made more sense, or the incident was spread over a wide area. But most of the time, fire attack was a single attack engine/single supply line operation.

    This is the tactics area. People have very different ways of doing things.

    To me laying multiple supply lines and pulling lines off multiple engines makes no sense. To you it makes perfect sense.

    To you sending one man to the roof or having an outside vent man work alone makes sense. To me it's dangerous.

    Amazing how only your way of utilizing engines is the right way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Maybe where you are it isn't, for whatever reason, but everywhere I have been it's been the standard procedure.
    Sorry, it's not an area thing, it's common practice based on years of experience in many areas of the nation, documented in almost every book written on Engine Co. Ops. Putting all your eggs in one basket will yield scrambled eggs sooner or later. I guess since it didn't happen to you, you needn't worry about it. So much for preaching safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    To me laying multiple supply lines and pulling lines off multiple engines makes no sense. To you it makes perfect sense.

    To you sending one man to the roof or having an outside vent man work alone makes sense. To me it's dangerous.

    Amazing how only your way of utilizing engines is the right way.
    I'm getting dizzy. You said a few post back you understood the pump failure thing, now you just don't thinks it's a big enough issue? It sure as hell isn't "my way." I learned this from day one in a small VFD in a rural community. Was taught at every fire attack school I ever took regarding engine ops. Is in almost every text on tactics , engine ops and command. Stop your babbling, you have no clue about this job at all.

    And to me, having the OVM operate alone is far safer than not having the task completed. If you understood the position you'd understand.

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    I said I understood a mechanical failure was always possibility.

    And yes, it could be a reason to consider using 2 engines.

    I didn't say it was necessarily a good enough reason to change operations.

    If you actually read my previous posts, we rarely pull more than 2 lines off a single engine here.

    And to me, having the OVM operate alone is far safer than not having the task completed. If you understood the position you'd understand


    I was trained, both internally and state fire instructors in VT and NY, that no task on the fireground, short of cold zone support functions, should ever be done solo.

    I understand the position but based on my training, I would perceive it as 2-man task for safety reasons.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-02-2009 at 10:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And jakes ..

    I admitted it did take a little longer.

    Very rarely did it matter.
    To YOU...it obviously didn't matter at all. It's not your stuff thats on fire, or your friends and family inside.

    So why not take a little extra time stretching, think of the time you save when you put it away AFTER the damage is done.

    I will give one thing to your credit...your selfishness is consistent through and through.

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    Ya jakes, that whooping 20 seconds.

    The funny thing is the line from the reel could still be in service before the officer or senior man from the front seat was done with his 360.

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    We have one 1.75 150ft and one 1.75 200ft triple flatted and one 2.5 150 ft flat loaded preconected along with a 100ft rubber 1.75 front bumper trash line. we have four hundred feet 1.75 dead loaded in rear hose bed along with a skid unit 200ft 2.5 then gated wye and two 150ft 1.75. Also we carry 1000ft five inch and 1000ft 2.5 dead loaded. We also have two 100ft 1.75in hotel packs. And in the engineers compartment we carry two extra sections of 1.75 folded over and rolled so male and female end are together (donut roll). All of our preconnects have a three foot leader on it so there is a coupling right by the engineer so all he has to do is shut the line down unroll the hose and hook both ends up real quick. This is a lot faster than pulling dead hose from the back of the truck, and can be done by one person the engineer without leaving the pump panel. First in engine or quint goes to the fire second lays five inch into the first due engine first two lines come off the first due engine third and so on comes of second engine. We lay multiple supply lines for a second alarm or greater or if the IC see the need areas with bad water pressure. Sometimes with will lay a second supply line and have everything hooked up just not charge it. This works well for us but may not work well everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Ya jakes, that whooping 20 seconds.

    The funny thing is the line from the reel could still be in service before the officer or senior man from the front seat was done with his 360.
    Again...it's not your stuff and its not your family.

    Just can't understand the logic behind doing something that takes LONGER when time and speed is critical just so save some time when it isn't.

    And then I recall the selfish nature of your posts and it begins to make sense.

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    We have 100' of 1.75" CAFS with a 15/16" tip in twin donut rolls in the front bumper along with 150' 1.75" CAFS, 150' 1.75" water, and 200' 1.75" water off the side in the triple layer, all 3 with fog nozzles. Off the back we have 200' of 2.5" CAFS with a 1 1/8" tip that is also in a triple layer. As far as dead loads off the back we have 400' of 3" and 1200-1500' of 5". In the rear driver's side compartment we have 200' of 1.75" and 200' of 2.5" rolled.

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    Our Smeals and older Pierce engines: 2 - 150' 1 3/4" Crosslays - Triple Layer - Automatic Nozzle, 2 - 250' 1 3/4" Rear Preconnects - Flat Load - Automatic Nozzle, 300' 2 1/2" Rear Preconnect - Top 150' Triple Layer - Bottom 150' Flat Load - Break-Apart Nozzle.

    New engines add 100' 1 3/4" Bumper Line - Automatic Nozzle, and Break-Apart nozzles on the 1 3/4" lines.

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    Default Preconnect

    Preconnect

    1 3/4 line and both are 150 ft.

    We use the triple lay and it is fast to deploy but a pain to repack. I have tryed to get the dept. to change but the dept is set on there ways. But I cant complain, it gets the job done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by losixtream View Post
    Preconnect

    1 3/4 line and both are 150 ft.

    We use the triple lay and it is fast to deploy but a pain to repack. I have tryed to get the dept. to change but the dept is set on there ways. But I cant complain, it gets the job done.
    I agree that the triple pack takes practice to load correctly, but I prefer it over the minuteman for the rapid deployment, especially if short-handed. I'll take the rapid deployment over ease of repacking. Having said that, we use the minuteman and I havn't seen a need to really push to change it.

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    On our engine we use the following:

    Transverse beds
    250' 1-3/4" flat load, loops at 75' and 125', combo nozzle.
    200' 1-3/4", 100' flat, 100' Cleveland Load, combo nozzle

    Rear beds
    200' 1-3/4" Minute Man combo nozzle
    150' wildland load, 50' 1-3/4" then 100' 1-1/2" w/smooth bore tip.
    2 x 100" 1-3/4" bundles (Cleveland Load)

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    Quote Originally Posted by EngineCo16 View Post
    On our engine we use the following:

    Transverse beds
    250' 1-3/4" flat load, loops at 75' and 125', combo nozzle.
    200' 1-3/4", 100' flat, 100' Cleveland Load, combo nozzle

    Rear beds
    200' 1-3/4" Minute Man combo nozzle
    150' wildland load, 50' 1-3/4" then 100' 1-1/2" w/smooth bore tip.
    2 x 100" 1-3/4" bundles (Cleveland Load)
    How do you like the functionality of the Cleveland load vs. your flat and minute man?

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    Default Pre connects

    In my fire dept we use the cross loads. We keep 2 250ft length 1 3/4 hoses, one 150 length of 2 1/2 hoses. The cross load in my opinion is the fastest to pull off and it pulls easy. The reloading of it is completely easy and very simple.

    I havent used the cleveland connect style but it doesnt seem from what i know about it is as simple as the cross load.

    The amount of hose you ant for your preconnects is at your dept's discretion depending on the avg. location of a water sorce.


    good luck. contact me for info on the cross loads if you are interested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedicThorne View Post
    How do you like the functionality of the Cleveland load vs. your flat and minute man?
    Well each one has a different use. We have everything from homes 20' off the street back to 150' off the street. If the house is within 100' of the engine we'll pull the Cleveland Load. If we have an initial long stretch we can pull the 250 flat load and take a Cleveland bundle and extend it, but that's rare. The minute man is good if we have a lot of obstacles, plus it's a good overall line too.

    I think the flat load is one of our favorites though, pulling off what we need if we need less than 200' feet.

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    My dept. usually only utilizes one attack engine, however, we always get at least 2 sources of water. Also any other engine that lays lines for the attack engine is staying at the hydrant, so in the event of a mechanical failure the attack engine becomes the attack manifold.

    I know its not 100% safe, but for us its good enough. Outside of the pump shattering or some large catastrophic hole in the pump body, our method provides a back up. Even if that happens, we can kill the supply engine, slap a gated wye on it and have our hand lines going again very quickly.


    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    So extending hose lines in your department is a foreign concept? What if a section busts? You have to break down another preconnect instead of just rolling out a spare section? No reloading of lines on scene with clean, dry hose instead of the dirty, wet line you just used?

    Call me crazy, but that is just plain dumb.
    My dept. doesn't carry much hose beyond what is in our bed or high rise packs. We have 100-150 feet of extra 1 3/4. I don't see the point, its nice to have to piece in, but space is at a premium. We have extra hose at the firehouse if we have to use our spare rolls on scene, but we couldn't repack our beds with fresh line. Call me crazy, but carrying a hundreds of feet of extra hose seems a little dumb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post



    My dept. doesn't carry much hose beyond what is in our bed or high rise packs. We have 100-150 feet of extra 1 3/4. I don't see the point, its nice to have to piece in, but space is at a premium. We have extra hose at the firehouse if we have to use our spare rolls on scene, but we couldn't repack our beds with fresh line. Call me crazy, but carrying a hundreds of feet of extra hose seems a little dumb.
    must be nice to live in a black and white world where every fire is reached with preconnects.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 05-21-2009 at 09:05 PM.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Actually it is pretty nice.

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