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    Savage / Hyneman 08'

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    Default Front bumper hose well with front access

    My department is currently in the process of specing a new engine. One of the issues we are dealing with is the layout of the front bumper.

    We want a 100ft 1 3/4 line in addition to as much 3" as we can fit for a mercury monitor.

    The idea is to put the 1 3/4 in a hose well between the frame rails, leaving the entire top open for 3" hose and monitor. To access the 1 3/4 without moving the 3" above it, we would like to have the center section of the front bumper fold down for deployment, discharge located in same compartment. The 1 3/4 will be on a removable tray that will be loaded and then placed in the well from the front, again so the 3" above need not be moved. There will be acces from the top for any maintenance or repair issues. We just have to move the 3"

    I would like to know if anyone has had experience with a setup that has part of the bumper fold down like a compartment door. I know manufactures that offer such a setup, but I have questions such as:

    1. Any issues with the door sealing properly being on the front of the truck getting the brunt of the weather while going down the road? The top access will have a diamondplate cover and sealed. Lots of road salt around here in the winter.

    2. How has the bumper held up in an accident? Some loss of integrity can be expected, but I have not gotten an exact idea of how much from a manufacture yet.

    Any other pros or cons I have not thought of? Any thoughts or ideas are appreciated. Specific example or pics are appreciated. If you are in apparatus sales feel free to give examples from your own sales, I don't mind a little self promotion.

    Thank you all for your time. Many of you have helped our process with information posted in response to others questions. ( Search function works! )

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    Are you set on 3" or are you open to consider 2 1/2"? Trying to fit alot of 3" into the bumper might be a bit of an issue, and for the amount of hose youre likely to fit (I doubt if anymore than 150' will fit), 2 1/2" might be a better option.

    What size tip is your Mercury Gun equipped with?

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    Something like this will be very expensive. Why dont you have the 3" off the rear and have it preconnected to your monitor?

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    Get a hold of Lutherville, Maryland. I am pretty sure they have this set up on their (fairly) newer Pierce pumper. They are located in Baltimore County,Md. I think I may have pics somewhere, I have to dig.

    http://www.lvfc.com/
    Last edited by FWDbuff; 04-21-2009 at 07:38 PM. Reason: added webpage
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    Default Drop down front bumper

    In my old company we had an engine that had the front suction behind the front bumper with a drop down door where you could put a preconnect. It goes all the way between the frame rails and the top can either stay down with hose on top or flip up to get out of the way.
    It is a 1992, and I noticed the other day when I was there, the latches dont hold quite as good as they used to and there is a gap now.

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    FWDbuff,

    Did you notice that new heavy rescue that Luterville has? Its quite a rig.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1 View Post
    FWDbuff,

    Did you notice that new heavy rescue that Luterville has? Its quite a rig.
    That truck was being built while I was out at the factory inspecting our Engine. It was still in pieces but you could tell it was going to be a big truck

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    Fredericksburg, VA has a folding partition on their front bumper. I'll see if I can find some pix.
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    Default easier way

    Personaly I've never seen such a thing, but I'm sure it's out there.....and like ever other "neat" idea has a price tag larger than what most would expect. Why not keep it simple...general speaking, your bumper is broken up into thirds in reguards to hose wells, officer side, center (between frame wells) and drivers side. Why not shift your front bumper line to one side and use the other 2 for the 3 inch. It would be a simpler solution to your problem most likley with a smaller price tag.
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    Savage / Hyneman 08'

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    Thanks for the response so far. To answer some of your questions...

    I'm not set on the 3", 2 1/2 is an option. I'm sure it would be a bit cheaper to do the 2 1/2 as it requires a 300gpm discharge rather than a 600gpm discharge. Our mercury is curently off of the rear but the intent is to get as much of the larger attack hose off of the rear to be out of the way of a porta-tank, which we use a lot of.

    Our Mercury monitor has a 1 3/4 deluge tip. We also own the combination nozzle.

    I'm trying to stay away from 3 hose wells in the front bumper as it will be hard to find space for 3 wells, 2 discharges, a Q2b, 2 air horns and a siren speaker all in and on the bumper. We may also need space for a donated bell.

    Prices wise, we have no idea yet. It looked good on paper, but I thought some real world information would be worthwhile to help give us a good idea if such a thing might work for us before requesting it in a spec.

    This may be the more complicated part of the truck, figuring out how to best lay out the front bumper. The rest of the truck is laid out as simply and as basic as I can to keep purchase and maintenance costs down, increase reliability, and keep it simple to operate.
    Last edited by DFDMAXX; 04-22-2009 at 01:12 AM.

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    Some alternate ideas for thought...

    We did this with our mercury using 2 1/2" hose. its 100'


    Here is our bumper with 3 hose wells.



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    3610,That would be my suggestion.Based on a bunch of rigs I've looked at MOST mount the "mini gun" on one SIDE or the other.You can do it in the bumper but it's going to increase the width. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DFDMAXX View Post
    My department is currently in the process of specing a new engine. One of the issues we are dealing with is the layout of the front bumper.

    We want a 100ft 1 3/4 line in addition to as much 3" as we can fit for a mercury monitor.

    The idea is to put the 1 3/4 in a hose well between the frame rails, leaving the entire top open for 3" hose and monitor. To access the 1 3/4 without moving the 3" above it, we would like to have the center section of the front bumper fold down for deployment, discharge located in same compartment. The 1 3/4 will be on a removable tray that will be loaded and then placed in the well from the front, again so the 3" above need not be moved. There will be acces from the top for any maintenance or repair issues. We just have to move the 3"

    I would like to know if anyone has had experience with a setup that has part of the bumper fold down like a compartment door. I know manufactures that offer such a setup, but I have questions such as:

    1. Any issues with the door sealing properly being on the front of the truck getting the brunt of the weather while going down the road? The top access will have a diamondplate cover and sealed. Lots of road salt around here in the winter.

    2. How has the bumper held up in an accident? Some loss of integrity can be expected, but I have not gotten an exact idea of how much from a manufacture yet.

    Any other pros or cons I have not thought of? Any thoughts or ideas are appreciated. Specific example or pics are appreciated. If you are in apparatus sales feel free to give examples from your own sales, I don't mind a little self promotion.

    Thank you all for your time. Many of you have helped our process with information posted in response to others questions. ( Search function works! )
    Use donut rolls in a center well. Much more efficient use of the space. You can change out # of rolls os 3", 2-1/2", 1-3/4" (all are the same diameter) until you're happy with the mix.

    search on donut and you will find several threads.

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    Not sure how much, "as much as possible" is, but you could likely do the donut load in the bumper with 3". All hose rolls up in nearly the same diameter other than the coupling. With that in mind, you should be able to put 150' in the same overall well size we used for 200' of 1.75". We have two of the 200' wells and still some room on top of the bumper where a monitor could be mounted. This includes the Q recessed in the bumper and dual airhorns, the electronic siren speaker didn't make it and was moved to inside the radiator grill, with the speaker grill left in place to cover the hole.

    No doubt the airhorns, Q and electronic siren will take a lot of the space. If the Q was top mounted on the outside of the bumper it would help the wells Similarly you can move the electronic speaker to the grill and all you need to place is the airhorns. Depending on your geography, you might be toying with angle of approach issues with an extended front bumper and things hanging below the frame rails. We found one small dead end street we can't get out of due to winter frost heave conditions. Of course it doesn't meet city spec for grade and such so they'll be fixing it this summer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Use donut rolls in a center well. Much more efficient use of the space. You can change out # of rolls os 3", 2-1/2", 1-3/4" (all are the same diameter) until you're happy with the mix.

    search on donut and you will find several threads.

    Already found the donut rolls, thanks to "Crosslays suck" and the contibutions of Blitzfiresolo and his pics with the "Monster bumper" Hubbardston ( sp? ) engine. I printed out pics from the new engine as soon as they were posted a couple of summers ago to show to the rest of the apparatus group in my dept that a well thought out plan to use every square inch of the engine for mounting tools and equipment can have wonderful results. I was very impressed with the donut rolls once the instructions for packing and deployment were posted. Donut rolls are an option and we will be making a mockup of the donut hose wells for department trial, as none of us had heard of such a thing, let alone seen it in action until posted here.

    The big question on donut rolls is: how hard is it do deploy 4 rolls of 3"? Donuts for 2 1/2 would be easier for a 200ft deployment. I guess we'll find out when we do a mockup, but any real world info would be appreaciated.

    Thanks everyone for the alternative ideas. So far nothing about our concept for the front bumper layout is set. Another idea to save 14" on the wheelbase of the engine we may eliminate the speedlays by the pump and put both 1 3/4 preconnects on the front bumper in donut rolls, along with 2 1/2 donuts in the center well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DFDMAXX View Post
    The big question on donut rolls is: how hard is it do deploy 4 rolls of 3"? Donuts for 2 1/2 would be easier for a 200ft deployment. I guess we'll find out when we do a mockup, but any real world info would be appreciated.
    I'd think stretching 200' of 3" plus carrying the gun would be taxing to say the least. The good thing about the donut roll load is that it allows you to double up if needed. One FF can take the gun and drag the first 50 feet, while the second FF could grab the loops and stretch the 150 remaining feet. Or each can take 100 ft.

    Three donut wells in the bumper might be difficult with airhorns and a Q? We piped our two 1.75" wells to a single 2.5" outlet with a gated wye. This allows us to connect to the larger outlet if needed and cut down on the number of gauges, gates and pipe from the pump to the bumper. Of course this requires both lines of equal length and similar nozzles to figure the engine pressure properly.

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    I actually think the original idea is the best. The cost should not be prohibitive since all major manufacturers offer a drop-down door compartment, usually for a winch. A pre-connect on a tray below would also eliminate two 90 degree bends and a swivel. The Q, electronic,horns, etc could outside of the frame rails.

    I would then just fabricate a diamondplate "trough" on TOP of the bumper extension for the gun and hose. It could be removable for cab tilt. Bumper wells absolutely suck for anything more than a 25' front intake hose. There are plenty of pictures of similar setups on then web, just don't have time to look right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FD1976 View Post
    Bumper wells absolutely suck for anything more than a 25' front intake hose.
    What basis do you use to make this statement? We're very happy with our two 200 foot preconnected donut wells.

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    when we proposed this with KME they would not do it as it infered with the "integrity" of the front bumper in the event of a crash.
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    Wood River FD in Illinois has a drop down tray on their new Spartan Crimson. It is a 24" bumper. The bumper line is in between the frame rails and there are two tool boxes on the outside of the frame rails. My concern would be what you would use to mount the mercury to the front bumper. In a front end collision that could become a 20lb. projectile. That would be terrible if it went through a civilians windshield. I know.... there is a Q on most bumpers, but they are bolted down. Most extrication equipment I have seen is enclosed with a diamondplate lid.



    http://www.crimson-fire.com/delivery.aspx?id=8318

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    Quote Originally Posted by GFPD2005 View Post
    Wood River FD in Illinois has a drop down tray on their new Spartan Crimson. It is a 24" bumper. The bumper line is in between the frame rails and there are two tool boxes on the outside of the frame rails. My concern would be what you would use to mount the mercury to the front bumper. In a front end collision that could become a 20lb. projectile. That would be terrible if it went through a civilians windshield. I know.... there is a Q on most bumpers, but they are bolted down. Most extrication equipment I have seen is enclosed with a diamondplate lid.



    http://www.crimson-fire.com/delivery.aspx?id=8318
    Good point on securing the monitor. The rubber strappy thing that holds the monitor on the base would probably fail in a collision. We have considered a diamond plate cover for the hose, but had not considered the monitor.

    Thanks for the thoughts. Gives me one more thing to think about so we can make this engine right the first time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    What basis do you use to make this statement? We're very happy with our two 200 foot preconnected donut wells.
    Sorry, let me re-phrase, they have not worked "well" for us. After looking at your pics of your donut roll set up, that seems about the best I've seen. I don't like the 18" wide wells that departments accordian fold for a parade style look. It takes forever to pack them, they never skid properly and all those folds can't be too good for the hose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FD1976 View Post
    Sorry, let me re-phrase, they have not worked "well" for us. After looking at your pics of your donut roll set up, that seems about the best I've seen. I don't like the 18" wide wells that departments accordian fold for a parade style look. It takes forever to pack them, they never skid properly and all those folds can't be too good for the hose.
    I figured you had some experience at using these but I was wondering the issues. Obviously we're happy with the donut loads, but it seems many places utilize other loads with relative success, so I wondered what types of issues came up.

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    As promised, here's a picture of a "folding front bumper." This is courtesy a friend that works for the Fredericksburg, VA FD. While this doesn't address the portable monitor issue, it's just one example of how a bumper can be modified.

    In this example, the portion of the bumper can be dropped to allow access to a recessed front intake and short section of soft suction hose. This is seen on the officer's side.

    Hope this helps...
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    Wells can work well. Just remember they cant be that deep because of the approach angle. If you do them front or side make them floating wells this way if the truck bottoms out alot less damage will be done.

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