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    Default Safety is your enemy!

    Much "debate" has been had about fireground safety. So...my question is...what safety policies are hampering you personnally from doing your job in your department? Please, don't make this a debate about whether it's good or bad...or what you heard is happening somewhere else...or what you read in a magazine. I am curious to hear what safety policies are too stringent for your dept.

    If you become the chief today, what policies are going away tomorrow and replaced with what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kayakking View Post
    Much "debate" has been had about fireground safety. So...my question is...what safety policies are hampering you personnally from doing your job in your department? Please, don't make this a debate about whether it's good or bad...or what you heard is happening somewhere else...or what you read in a magazine. I am curious to hear what safety policies are too stringent for your dept.

    If you become the chief today, what policies are going away tomorrow and replaced with what?
    I personally don't have a problem with any of the safety policies put forth by my department. Most of those policies us the freedom to step slightly out of stringent guidelines when a life is at stake, and allowing the firefighter to ackowledge that this job is extremely dangerous and that by deviating from any policy or procedure can, and has in the past, resulted in death. Every policy regarding safety put forth by my department has been implemenmted with the goal of getting me home at night, and I am grateful for that. But NO policy can cover every contingency in its entirety, which is why humans do this job and not machines.

    I think the problem I have with some of the more vocal safety culturists is that the term "safety" is used as a crutch to prohibit them from doing things that are hazardous. FIREFIGHTING IS HAZARDOUS. There is no escaping that fact. But hazardous is not the same as reckless.

    In order to acheive our objective, which is saving lives from the extreme life threat of fire, one has to actually engage the fire.

    There are certainly ways to reduce our exposure to risk, but risk CANNOT be eliminated while at the same time delivering the vital service of life conservation. I don't want to die in a fire. I don't want the members of my company or my department to die in a fire. Much the same way those we SWORE to protect don't want to die in a fire. So we train and we study and we listen and we take care of each other. But we CANNOT sit idle forever hoping that SOMEONE ELSE steps up to do uncomfortable things, or is willing to put someone else before themselves.

    Nobody is forced to be a firefighter. If you are unwilling to accept some risk and to place yourself in hazardous situations to help the defenseless, then you need to ask yourself why have chosen to fight fires because those around you, and those you are tasked with helping deserve at least that much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kayakking View Post
    Much "debate" has been had about fireground safety. So...my question is...what safety policies are hampering you personnally from doing your job in your department? Please, don't make this a debate about whether it's good or bad...or what you heard is happening somewhere else...or what you read in a magazine. I am curious to hear what safety policies are too stringent for your dept.

    If you become the chief today, what policies are going away tomorrow and replaced with what?
    Better question, what poor attitudes on the fire ground are causing LODDs

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    I personally don't have a problem with any of the safety policies put forth by my department. Most of those policies us the freedom to step slightly out of stringent guidelines when a life is at stake, and allowing the firefighter to ackowledge that this job is extremely dangerous and that by deviating from any policy or procedure can, and has in the past, resulted in death. Every policy regarding safety put forth by my department has been implemenmted with the goal of getting me home at night, and I am grateful for that. But NO policy can cover every contingency in its entirety, which is why humans do this job and not machines.

    I think the problem I have with some of the more vocal safety culturists is that the term "safety" is used as a crutch to prohibit them from doing things that are hazardous. FIREFIGHTING IS HAZARDOUS. There is no escaping that fact. But hazardous is not the same as reckless.

    In order to acheive our objective, which is saving lives from the extreme life threat of fire, one has to actually engage the fire.

    There are certainly ways to reduce our exposure to risk, but risk CANNOT be eliminated while at the same time delivering the vital service of life conservation. I don't want to die in a fire. I don't want the members of my company or my department to die in a fire. Much the same way those we SWORE to protect don't want to die in a fire. So we train and we study and we listen and we take care of each other. But we CANNOT sit idle forever hoping that SOMEONE ELSE steps up to do uncomfortable things, or is willing to put someone else before themselves.

    Nobody is forced to be a firefighter. If you are unwilling to accept some risk and to place yourself in hazardous situations to help the defenseless, then you need to ask yourself why have chosen to fight fires because those around you, and those you are tasked with helping deserve at least that much.
    Fighting fire is not hazardous. The actions and the risk a person takes are what make it hazardous.

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    Fighting fire is not hazardous. The actions and the risk a person takes are what make it hazardous.
    That has to be the stupidest thing you've written in days.

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    All our axes are made of Nerf.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    That has to be the stupidest thing you've written in days.
    Nope the stupidest thing I have written is "ThNozzleman"

    You have been given the knowledge and training to avoid disaster in a fire. If you fail to use what you have been taught then you are creating a dangerous situation. Use your knowledge and skills appropriately and there is no danger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    All our axes are made of Nerf.
    Ohhh. Not good, Nerf is extremely flammable

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    All our axes are made of Nerf.
    So are the Coward Twin's heads.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Nope the stupidest thing I have written is "ThNozzleman"

    You have been given the knowledge and training to avoid disaster in a fire. If you fail to use what you have been taught then you are creating a dangerous situation. Use your knowledge and skills appropriately and there is no danger.
    I have heard your safety cliches more than once from more than one person.

    "Every fire can be fought safely". We have all heard it over and over again.

    Which is exactly the point. Just like every battle could be fought without casualties if one side chooses not to fight but rather run and hide. If you choose to not help those in need, and you choose to place yourself over your fellow man EVERY TIME, than you probably would never be hurt.

    But using your skills and knowledge in a responsible way to help those with NO skills and NO knowledge survive a life threatening situation is not without risk. Surely you can understand this concept.

    If you saw a child about to be hit by a car, would you run into the street to TRY to make a difference aned grab him, or would the fear of being hit yourself keep you safely on the sidewalk? Only you can answer that.

    If you choose to let your fellow man suffer his fate without ever trying to step in and help out, then you will remain safe and sound for a very long time.

    But if that is how you feel, then I must ask....why do you become a firefighter?

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    Default Why!

    Is it not possible to have a civil discussion about a major topic on these boards anymore? Everyone is concerned about firefighter safety, but the "safety nerds" have changed the matrix to the point that we might as well just stay in quarters. It seems that everytime someone starts a topic that could have good discussion, the arm chair experts take over. Sure glad I don't have to fight this on a daily basis.

    Pete
    Pete Sinclair
    Hartford, MI
    IACOJ (Retired Division)

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    Crow,Firefighting is certainly not going to be hazardous to YOU as the closest you're apt to be to a fire is a simulator on the 'puter. That should be safe enough.Our Sogs all finish with: Deviations are at the discretion of the incident commander who shall be soley responsible for their actions. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pete892 View Post
    Is it not possible to have a civil discussion about a major topic on these boards anymore? Everyone is concerned about firefighter safety, but the "safety nerds" have changed the matrix to the point that we might as well just stay in quarters. It seems that everytime someone starts a topic that could have good discussion, the arm chair experts take over. Sure glad I don't have to fight this on a daily basis.

    Pete
    Pete,

    I don't think so. When you see a guy with over 3,000 posts in less than a year and just abut 99.89% is BS and then you have another guy who is afraid to go in and save a life because OMG the situation is "dangerous" or "risky" . Last time I checked this is a dangerous and hazardous job. Can't handle this job and go into a dangerous environment to save a life then I think you should find another line of work.

    Rob

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    Default

    The "other guy" hasn't posted in this thread and does not plan too.

    No need to include me in any further posts.

    No further twisting required.

    Thank you.

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    Rehab policies and RIT.

    The way that both are implemented are useless, and do nothing to improve safety.
    Both are concepts that have the potential to be good,or be positive, but when they are written or designed as they are in my job, they don't accomplish anything other than to **** guys off.

    Rehab ...

    If rehab is such a big deal now, I would rather call in extra companies to perform overhaul, or to pick up hose. I honestly think that having guys sit for 20-30 minutes, after exerting themselves, and then resuming work only contributes to more injuries. More often than not, we're in better shape to just work and get it done, after stopping for some water, rather than sitting down and being forced to sit and get stiff for 30 minutes.


    RIT ...

    Considering that NFPA 1407 is set to be adopted, it details training standards needed to properly prepare RIT companies.
    We don't have comprehensive training in place for companies that perform RIT, here. We also don't have a policy that is effective or proactive enough to really improve safety on a fireground, and we don't address communication well enough or provide enough staffing to adequately begin a RIT operation, should we need to.

    Obviously I could go much deeper into both issues, but that's the surface of it, IMO.

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    The "other guy" hasn't posted in this thread and does not plan too.

    No further twisting required
    The only one twisting here is you...and at the end of your own rope.

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    An example of athoughtful and informative post

    Rehab policies and RIT.

    The way that both are implemented are useless, and do nothing to improve safety.
    Both are concepts that have the potential to be good,or be positive, but when they are written or designed as they are in my job, they don't accomplish anything other than to **** guys off.

    Rehab ...

    If rehab is such a big deal now, I would rather call in extra companies to perform overhaul, or to pick up hose. I honestly think that having guys sit for 20-30 minutes, after exerting themselves, and then resuming work only contributes to more injuries. More often than not, we're in better shape to just work and get it done, after stopping for some water, rather than sitting down and being forced to sit and get stiff for 30 minutes.


    RIT ...

    Considering that NFPA 1407 is set to be adopted, it details training standards needed to properly prepare RIT companies.
    We don't have comprehensive training in place for companies that perform RIT, here. We also don't have a policy that is effective or proactive enough to really improve safety on a fireground, and we don't address communication well enough or provide enough staffing to adequately begin a RIT operation, should we need to.

    Obviously I could go much deeper into both issues, but that's the surface of it, IMO.
    __________________



    An example of a childish post

    Bwaaaahaaaahaaaaahaaaa! Now, that I'd like to see!

    Its too bad the the latter outnumbers the former so much. Especially on subjects that be be very beneficial to many

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    Rehab policies and RIT.

    The way that both are implemented are useless, and do nothing to improve safety.
    Both are concepts that have the potential to be good,or be positive, but when they are written or designed as they are in my job, they don't accomplish anything other than to **** guys off.

    Rehab ...

    If rehab is such a big deal now, I would rather call in extra companies to perform overhaul, or to pick up hose. I honestly think that having guys sit for 20-30 minutes, after exerting themselves, and then resuming work only contributes to more injuries. More often than not, we're in better shape to just work and get it done, after stopping for some water, rather than sitting down and being forced to sit and get stiff for 30 minutes.


    RIT ...

    Considering that NFPA 1407 is set to be adopted, it details training standards needed to properly prepare RIT companies.
    We don't have comprehensive training in place for companies that perform RIT, here. We also don't have a policy that is effective or proactive enough to really improve safety on a fireground, and we don't address communication well enough or provide enough staffing to adequately begin a RIT operation, should we need to.

    Obviously I could go much deeper into both issues, but that's the surface of it, IMO.

    Heart attacks are the leading cause of LODD. That said, do you have a better approach? Personally, setting a time limit seems silly for rehab. Certainly everyone should go to the rehab area and at least have their vitals checked and get a drink. Then base the decision on further work on intelligent decision making. Doing overhaul and picking up hose is far less strenuous than an aggressive initial attack.

    As for RIT. I see a lot of places giving it lip service with no real training in RIT and no dedicated teams. It seems the concept is a good one, but it requires a change of attitude and a change in operations. Until Chiefs start pushing the issue RIT teams will be ineffective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    I have heard your safety cliches more than once from more than one person.

    "Every fire can be fought safely". We have all heard it over and over again.

    Which is exactly the point. Just like every battle could be fought without casualties if one side chooses not to fight but rather run and hide. If you choose to not help those in need, and you choose to place yourself over your fellow man EVERY TIME, than you probably would never be hurt.

    But using your skills and knowledge in a responsible way to help those with NO skills and NO knowledge survive a life threatening situation is not without risk. Surely you can understand this concept.

    If you saw a child about to be hit by a car, would you run into the street to TRY to make a difference aned grab him, or would the fear of being hit yourself keep you safely on the sidewalk? Only you can answer that.

    If you choose to let your fellow man suffer his fate without ever trying to step in and help out, then you will remain safe and sound for a very long time.

    But if that is how you feel, then I must ask....why do you become a firefighter?
    My point, Iíve personally witnessed guys who need to be the hero. Got to be first in. Donít need rehab and go on an endless supply of air bottles. Drive the fire truck like they are in an Indy car. They do stupid and dangerous things for what?

    My point is we have the training. We have the experience. Use it to make sure we all go home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The "other guy" hasn't posted in this thread and does not plan too.

    No need to include me in any further posts.

    No further twisting required.

    Thank you.

    Too Late... you did.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  21. #21
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    Default RIT & Rehab

    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    Rehab policies and RIT.

    The way that both are implemented are useless, and do nothing to improve safety.
    Both are concepts that have the potential to be good,or be positive, but when they are written or designed as they are in my job, they don't accomplish anything other than to **** guys off.

    Rehab ...

    If rehab is such a big deal now, I would rather call in extra companies to perform overhaul, or to pick up hose. I honestly think that having guys sit for 20-30 minutes, after exerting themselves, and then resuming work only contributes to more injuries. More often than not, we're in better shape to just work and get it done, after stopping for some water, rather than sitting down and being forced to sit and get stiff for 30 minutes.


    RIT ...

    Considering that NFPA 1407 is set to be adopted, it details training standards needed to properly prepare RIT companies.
    We don't have comprehensive training in place for companies that perform RIT, here. We also don't have a policy that is effective or proactive enough to really improve safety on a fireground, and we don't address communication well enough or provide enough staffing to adequately begin a RIT operation, should we need to.

    Obviously I could go much deeper into both issues, but that's the surface of it, IMO.
    Good points to consider.For myself it seems that once we put a name to it (RIT,RIC,FAST,Standby Co. etc) it opened the door for the process to grow. An old Chief and author on my job once said to me if you're ever in this position make sure you have at least 1 company standing by in case the sh*t hits the fan.Now I'm told that I need special training to search for FFs? How is it any different from the searches I've been doing for the past 20 years? I do think having a company/companies standing by is important for an extra measure of accountability but a search is a search as far as I'm concerned.
    As far a re-hab is concerned, it has it's place but how do you define a time limit? If you put a set time say 10 minutes before re-hab you'll have to hit multiples just for a room or two of fire.
    Scarecrow is right as far as heart attacks being the number 1 killer. We as fire fighters need to take better care of ourselves. A comprehensive wellness program would go along way to decreasing that stat.IMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Fighting fire is not hazardous. The actions and the risk a person takes are what make it hazardous.
    Friends don't let friends post drunk.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The "other guy" hasn't posted in this thread and does not plan too.

    No need to include me in any further posts.

    No further twisting required.

    Thank you.
    You are so desperate to be relevant..

    What a joke.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    I don't necessarily have a beef with safety regulations so much as with those that use them as the end all be all of doing the job. Many of the safety intiatives do not offer the flexibility that is needed on the fireground and therefore ultimately hamper operations. There just aren't cookie cutter answers to every situation. Unlike the offices where most of the safety gurus dream up this stuff, the environment we work in is ever changing.
    Another drawback is the substitution of "safety standards" for hardcore training and the invaluable asset of true fireground experience. As has been said risks can be taken safely, but only by those who have been trained and are experienced enough to make the judgements. If you blindly follow a directive that says don't do "X", then when the times comes for "X" you will be unable to do it...( the "entry without a line"/VES thread has some good examples of the inflexibility of some when it comes to safety procedures).

    Maybe a step back to a time when people were trained to do the job as opposed to regulated in doing it is the answer.

    Cogs

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Heart attacks are the leading cause of LODD. That said, do you have a better approach? Personally, setting a time limit seems silly for rehab. Certainly everyone should go to the rehab area and at least have their vitals checked and get a drink. Then base the decision on further work on intelligent decision making. Doing overhaul and picking up hose is far less strenuous than an aggressive initial attack.

    As for RIT. I see a lot of places giving it lip service with no real training in RIT and no dedicated teams. It seems the concept is a good one, but it requires a change of attitude and a change in operations. Until Chiefs start pushing the issue RIT teams will be ineffective.


    I do agree with rotating crews with rehab, but the problem that I think Jasper is alluding to, is that there is such an emphasis placed on rehab, that more companies should be brought in for an effective rotation of crews than what we see today. Because of staffing cuts and so forth, there are less people on a first alarm and using other crews leaves areas of the city unprotected, yet you see policies made that FF's will rehab etc. Well without calling in more crews, you put more work on less people already on the fireground. Sometimes an incident can be controlled effectively without mandating rehab. Sometimes all it takes a little breather for companies rather than mandating a set time that one has to sit out.

    As for RIT, I do agree that many places just give it lip service with no real training. Our dept just went through a couple months worth of MAYDAY and RIT training, which was very beneficial to all of us. However, I don't know about dedicating teams just to RIT, you never know who's district a fire will be or what companies may be out etc. Having everyone trained to an effective RIT level is the best you can really ask for.


    For us, rehab tends to get set up immediately and thus takes up a person that could be better utilized on the fireground. Along with rehab we have an accountability position that gets filled immediately by someone from the first alarm assignment, since we don't have chief aides. Accountability and rehab I would agree are important, but the issue I see, especially for us, is we are filling these positions with front line companies instead of sending in another unit right away. We are taking personnel away from initial fireground operations, to fill positions which have been cut in the past. The only effective way to address the issues are to send more companies on a first alarm so you have enough personnel for the fireground operations.
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

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