1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeff1974 View Post
    Are you referring to the number of firefighters killed responding to and from calls...? Because I promise you that is a much higher danger to Firefighters than using a QRV to initially investigate a fire alarm indication. Thatís why the majority of Depts. have dropped fire alarm activations to a single engine response, code 2 (no lights or siren)...

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    Majority of departments? I toss the flag on this one, what is your source for such a statement?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    IIRC, when Phoenix started running paramedics they didn't have enough to staff the ambulances (rescues in their jargon) or engines, so they put them on the trucks. Not feeling well? There will be an aerial at your front door shortly.
    Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Pheonix run a tiered EMS system? In their case the ambulance is a BLS unit and the medic will swap with one of the EMT's if it's an ALS call.

    We're running aerials on medical (and every other type of call) right now. Part of the reason we're considering a quick response vehicle is to reduce the number of times that aerial (in particular the 100-footer) has to run on medical or other calls where we don't need 100' worth of ladder.

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    Perceived fears? Can you link any publish reports that indicate QRV are more efficient? You call it fear, but why change something that works for something that has not been proved to save money or lives? Where are your study or reports?
    [/QUOTE]

    No I can not find any link that indicates a QRV will save money.. That's why I asked---Can someone please post some actual data, statistics, financial reports anything that is FACT or TRIAL BASED information to support their view (opinion) rather than continue to speculate "perceived" fears or notions. Otherwise this post will continue and continue and continue.... You only assumed I was for the QRV concept when in fact I have an open mind and would just like to see some type of case study regarding the "notion" - The QRV will save money or the percieved fears of QRV causing dept to drop staff to 2 man, Depts will stop buying Fire Engines etc etc .. I do not want to see Crew integrity compromised by having 2 men on a QRV and 2 men on an Engine back at the station but like a lot of other Dept's mine is facing some serious budget concerns and Crew integrity may compromised by way of lay off's rather than mixed staffing!

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    Originally Posted by joeff1974
    Are you referring to the number of firefighters killed responding to and from calls...? Because I promise you that is a much higher danger to Firefighters than using a QRV to initially investigate a fire alarm indication. Thatís why the majority of Depts. have dropped fire alarm activations to a single engine response, code 2 (no lights or siren)...

    I would like to see published facts on those statistics. I know of no department in our state that has adopted this response. Where did you come up with "a majority of departments"?

    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Majority of departments? I toss the flag on this one, what is your source for such a statement?
    My point is that responding to and from calls has been responsible for more firefighter deaths than actual "fire alarm activations" (NFPA.org)- I could possibly be wrong that "majority of Depts" made adjustments. It is only my assumption that it is the "majority" my apology... So your Departments respond a full assignment- 3 engines 1 ladder 2 battalions all lights and sirens to an alarm indication? (or whatever your intitial response is to structure fire )You have not made any adjustment for "Alarm Activation only" - like first due code 3 all others code 2 or engine and ladder only or single engine investigative mode.. etc etc..?

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    Kramer, would this be a QRV response or an Engine Co. response?
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeff1974 View Post
    Originally Posted by joeff1974
    Are you referring to the number of firefighters killed responding to and from calls...? Because I promise you that is a much higher danger to Firefighters than using a QRV to initially investigate a fire alarm indication. Thatís why the majority of Depts. have dropped fire alarm activations to a single engine response, code 2 (no lights or siren)...
    Once again you stated that a "majority of departments", but you have yet to cite where you get your information from. I know of no department in the past 35 years that has adopted such a practice. I am not saying there are not departments that have, but I would like to know where you get your data from proving these statements.



    Quote Originally Posted by joeff1974 View Post
    My point is that responding to and from calls has been responsible for more firefighter deaths than actual "fire alarm activations" (NFPA.org)- I could possibly be wrong that "majority of Depts" made adjustments. It is only my assumption that it is the "majority" my apology... So your Departments respond a full assignment- 3 engines 1 ladder 2 battalions all lights and sirens to an alarm indication? (or whatever your intitial response is to structure fire )You have not made any adjustment for "Alarm Activation only" - like first due code 3 all others code 2 or engine and ladder only or single engine investigative mode.. etc etc..?


    It depends on the alarm. Or a standard residential or business we dispatched 2 engines, 1 ladder, 1 district chief, 1 rescue, 1 service, and safety. On a high life hazard we dispatched, 4 engines, 2 ladder, 2 district chiefs, 2 rescues, 1 service, and safety. By state law when responding to an emergency we must run with audible and visual warning devices. Actually over the last ten years we start with the high life hazard response, for high rises, nursing homes, schools that are in session,...
    In the last 10 years, on my shift, at this station I have made 9 working fire, first in, from fire alarm activations. 5 residential and 4 commercial business.

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    To adress the issue of always sending an engine or truck co. to non-critical calls, the deptment I retired from recently started using "CARS" as QRV's. They respond to medicals, unknown if injury MVA's, and fire alarms. They have dedicated staffing so crew integrity is not an issue.

    You can read more about it by following this link. The You Tube video explains the program too.

    http://tvfr.com/news/index.aspx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    In the last 10 years, on my shift, at this station I have made 9 working fire, first in, from fire alarm activations. 5 residential and 4 commercial business.
    I've heard of fire departments reducing the response on known nuisance alarms. Usually the response was cut back from a full first alarm to a single engine or something along that line - never just a staff vehicle. Sorry - no source, just years of reading fire service publications.

    That said - how many of those nine automatic alarms were "regulars?" Places that you could count on running to several times a week?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    I have yet to see anyone mention the Ladder Tender concept that Pheonix employs.
    That's because it is even more retarded than the concept being discussed. Phoenix is basically paying for a pumper to send on medical calls that they don't want to send the truck on. Why not just send the engine company, not the engine that the truck guys take on medicals? I guarnatee you they are not saving any money!!!
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    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danomfd View Post
    Kramer, would this be a QRV response or an Engine Co. response?
    Oh......my pal Dano.

    That was no response. It was picked the bike up and rode another 6 hours to Tulsa. I was just hurting to bad to make the remaining 5500+ miles after that.

    Bastard.
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Why not just send the engine company,...
    Not sure exactly how they're running now, but when I paid a visit to a PFD station a few years ago that's exactly how they handled medicals.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TVFR9923 View Post
    To adress the issue of always sending an engine or truck co. to non-critical calls, the deptment I retired from recently started using "CARS" as QRV's. They respond to medicals, unknown if injury MVA's, and fire alarms. They have dedicated staffing so crew integrity is not an issue.
    I can appreciate the benefit of having additional staffing for some unit to handle "simple" runs during peak hours. However, but was doing it with a one-person unit really the best idea?

    According to the Web site, "The Car" handles non life-threatening EMS runs such as ground-level falls. Most of the broken hips I've run on have been ground-level falls. What does one guy do with a broken hip when the ambulance is delayed? Who watches that one guy's back when he's heads down offering patient care?

    How much longer does it take one guy to investigate an odor when you have a fully staffed company sitting in the house doing nothing? And although I believe there is a difference between a person calling to report a fire and a computer auto-dialing because a fire alarm has activated... I can't fathom sending one person to determine that the alarm is false.

    Don't get me wrong... If it worked for you guys, so be it. I just don't understand it, that's all. I certainly couldn't advocate it for my department. We run two-man minimums on our engines and there never seems to be enough hands as it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    That's because it is even more retarded than the concept being discussed. Phoenix is basically paying for a pumper to send on medical calls that they don't want to send the truck on. Why not just send the engine company, not the engine that the truck guys take on medicals? I guarnatee you they are not saving any money!!!
    FYI last I checked they dont run engines as LT units. They are medium duty rescues on Freightliner chassis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Excelent questions Cozmosis. I'll try to answer them as best as I can, but keep in mind that I'am retired now and that I never got the chance to work on a "CAR". My answers are just based on what I've been told by my friends that are still on the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by cozmosis View Post
    I can appreciate the benefit of having additional staffing for some unit to handle "simple" runs during peak hours. However, but was doing it with a one-person unit really the best idea?

    Responding by yourself is always a concern. Our call takers and dispatchers do a pretty good job of weeding out the simple from not so simple calls. If dispatch gets additional info to upgrade the call, more unit(s) can be added. The firefighter staffing the car can usr his/her discretion and call for addtional units too if it just doesn't sound right. Also, in order to help gain the union's support for this program, our administration agreed to phase in four (4) person staffing on all of our engines except for two.

    According to the Web site, "The Car" handles non life-threatening EMS runs such as ground-level falls. Most of the broken hips I've run on have been ground-level falls. What does one guy do with a broken hip when the ambulance is delayed? Who watches that one guy's back when he's heads down offering patient care?

    Again, there is a strong reliance on call taking triage at dispatch to keep the CARS from being dispatched on calls like that. And again, the CAR can always ask for another fire unit for more help. I am sure there will be times (if it hasn't happened already) where more help will be needed. One person (IMO) can do a fair amount for a fx hip...pt assessment, vitals, start an IV, maybe give some MS.

    I am not quite sure what you mean by "who watches that one guy's back". Are you taking about responder safety or making sure he follows proper protocols and SOP's? If you are talking safety, he/she can always back out of the scene and call for police.


    How much longer does it take one guy to investigate an odor when you have a fully staffed company sitting in the house doing nothing? And although I believe there is a difference between a person calling to report a fire and a computer auto-dialing because a fire alarm has activated... I can't fathom sending one person to determine that the alarm is false.

    As I understand it, this has been brought up. I think one person can figure out an oder investigation or fire alarm in a single family residence or small commercial occupansy, especially if there is an RP present. Having said that.... we do have some large, well known computer chip manufacturers in our fire district. Apparently it costs them several hundred thousand dollars a minute (just what I've been told) to shut down production and evacuate for a fire alarm. In this case it may be better to dispatch an engine or truck Co to investigate.

    Don't get me wrong... If it worked for you guys, so be it. I just don't understand it, that's all. I certainly couldn't advocate it for my department. We run two-man minimums on our engines and there never seems to be enough hands as it is.
    Oh, I understand what you're saying. It is still a new program and think it's too soon to say what the ultimate effectivness will be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    I've heard of fire departments reducing the response on known nuisance alarms. Usually the response was cut back from a full first alarm to a single engine or something along that line - never just a staff vehicle. Sorry - no source, just years of reading fire service publications.
    We had an abuser back in '87 that called 37 times in one year. He would call reporting "difficulty breathing". By the 911 call out he would get a engine, ALS, and BLS ambulance. The BLS was private and the ALS was public (parish ran). Knowing the ALS unit would have to transport he was able to get a ride to the charity hospital to get his meds refilled. The Chief of Operations stop Engine 1 from running the address for first aid. In April of 1988 his wife, 47 years old, had a heart attack and coded. EMS call us to assisted with CPR. She did not make it. That one call burned into my mind and I hold it up to my privates as to what can happen if we cut corners. We not only run full assignments but the assignments have beefed up over the last 20+ years.

    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    That said - how many of those nine automatic alarms were "regulars?" Places that you could count on running to several times a week?
    These were my first run and one of them was a repeat. The same house on N48th street. The residence accounted for two of the working fires. She left food on the stove on two different occasions.
    I have been second in on several fires, food on stove, is assisted living housing. These were not counted on the 9 fires I listed, sense the were not in my first due.
    I just feel it is easier to stand down than it is to ramp up. If the first unit gets there and there is nothing to the call turn the other trucks. If it is a working fire or a code everyone else are just moments away.
    Not saying the way you run things are wrong I just prefer to hit it big and hard, rather than trickle in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    We had an abuser back in '87 that called 37 times in one year. He would call reporting "difficulty breathing".
    We had one who did much the same thing - but he really did have advanced COPD. Usually he'd want us to give him a neb or two. I'd never give him a second neb in the house - always in the ambulance on the way to the ER. Then there was the time he did code. We had plenty of help (medical and otherwise) but it was his time.
    Not saying the way you run things are wrong I just prefer to hit it big and hard, rather than trickle in.
    As a chiefly volunteer served area, we actually have a bigger issue - after the umpteenth (virtually daily) automatic alarm to the Empty Arms Hotel, you're lucky to get enough folks to respond a single engine. That one isn't in our district, but we do have an automatic MA response into a different, neighboring district that usually has us getting turned around about a mile from our station. After a while, people start to wonder, "why bother?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    As a chiefly volunteer served area, we actually have a bigger issue - after the umpteenth (virtually daily) automatic alarm to the Empty Arms Hotel, you're lucky to get enough folks to respond a single engine. That one isn't in our district, but we do have an automatic MA response into a different, neighboring district that usually has us getting turned around about a mile from our station. After a while, people start to wonder, "why bother?"
    We had this problem till about '92, when most of the parishes started charging a false alarm fee after the 3 false call. You are allow 3 false alarms a year then $25 per false alarm.this also includes false burglar alarms also.
    $25 does not seem like alot but you would be amazed how quickly alarm systems get repaired.

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    We'd love to see that, but each of the townships and villages would have to be the ones to pass the law...

    Home rule, donchaknow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Oh......my pal Dano.

    That was no response. It was picked the bike up and rode another 6 hours to Tulsa. I was just hurting to bad to make the remaining 5500+ miles after that.

    Bastard.
    As Elmer Fudd would say...

    "ouch.. dat's a vewy bad case of woad wahsh!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Oh......my pal Dano.

    That was no response. It was picked the bike up and rode another 6 hours to Tulsa. I was just hurting to bad to make the remaining 5500+ miles after that.

    Bastard.
    That just says I HURT all over it. Part of the reason I stick to four wheels/tires now,don't bounce as well as I once did. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    That just says I HURT all over it. Part of the reason I stick to four wheels/tires now,don't bounce as well as I once did. T.C.
    You would bounce if you put on a "few" pounds... weebles wobble but they don't fall down!
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    We'd love to see that, but each of the townships and villages would have to be the ones to pass the law...

    Home rule, donchaknow.
    You could not push a county ord.?

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    Thank God we got a Chief a few years back that recognizes the cost of doing business. As the Union VP, I asked him about this retarded concept for a large city dept. His response was "if the Engines break, we'll fix or replace them".

    For paid departments, I'm not a fan of this concept. Crew integrity must be maintained. I always shake my head when I hear the "squad", as they call it in these parts, being used by paid departments, breaking up an already short staffed company to answer medical calls. We were the FD first, something I think sometimes is forgotten. I say that because some of these places using this concept, the guys riding this pickup don't even take their gear with them!!! WTF?!?!?!

    When I was a vollie, we used this idea when a random snow storm would plague the area, running a 4wd brush truck or Suburban on medicals. It worked, but we also had members staff other units as well so manpower wasn't jeopardized.

    A "QRV" was in the budget at one time a few years ago, but thankfully it became the EMS coordinators new wheels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    You could not push a county ord.?
    To the best of my knowledge, not as things stand now. We did a campaign to get folks to post their addresses so we could see them. The county folks did a nice resolution supporting it, but there was no suggestion of maybe a county law or ordinance to enforce it.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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