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    Default Quick Response Vehicles (QRV's)

    Our department is looking at purchasing QRV's for EMS, vehicle fires and wildland fires. Currently we respond to all calls with a structure engine and the department is looking to save wear on the engines as well as fuel costs by running with QRV's that are crossed-staffed with the engine crews. I am looking for some feedback from other departments that have made this transition--are they worth the cost-savings and what kinds of issues are there with cross-staffing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pepedepaco View Post
    Our department is looking at purchasing QRV's for EMS, vehicle fires and wildland fires. Currently we respond to all calls with a structure engine and the department is looking to save wear on the engines as well as fuel costs by running with QRV's that are crossed-staffed with the engine crews. I am looking for some feedback from other departments that have made this transition--are they worth the cost-savings and what kinds of issues are there with cross-staffing?
    We as a volunteer department are also entertaining the idea of running a QRV to medical calls. We designed and have taken delivery of an 09 Ford 350 4 door brush truck that is equipted with medical supplies. The thought is it is smaller, quicker, more manoverable and takes less personel to respond to medicals.
    Why run a 300,000 dollar engine to a .50 band aide call?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREINST View Post
    We as a volunteer department are also entertaining the idea of running a QRV to medical calls. We designed and have taken delivery of an 09 Ford 350 4 door brush truck that is equipted with medical supplies. The thought is it is smaller, quicker, more manoverable and takes less personel to respond to medicals.
    Why run a 300,000 dollar engine to a .50 band aide call?
    So you maintain crew integrity.

    People need to stop treating the fire service delivery like a business - always worried about the bottom line. It is not a business, it is a service that costs money. What's next? Why don't you send the band aide response vehicle on reported house fires as well? After all, many times they really are not or it is very small. Why burn the deisel and wear down the tires on the $300,000 engine?

    It is a slippery slope, IMO. You need runs on your equipment and your personnel in order to justify their existence. It won't be long until the business minded Chief, town manager, or mayor comes up with the bright idea that the new engine and the 2 guys staying back at the station really are not needed.
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    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    So you maintain crew integrity.

    People need to stop treating the fire service delivery like a business - always worried about the bottom line. It is not a business, it is a service that costs money. What's next? Why don't you send the band aide response vehicle on reported house fires as well? After all, many times they really are not or it is very small. Why burn the deisel and wear down the tires on the $300,000 engine?

    It is a slippery slope, IMO. You need runs on your equipment and your personnel in order to justify their existence. It won't be long until the business minded Chief, town manager, or mayor comes up with the bright idea that the new engine and the 2 guys staying back at the station really are not needed.
    I don't disagree but we are a private fire contractor that services 2 cities under contract so money can be an issue. Also staffing during the day is an issue for us. A sa side not that out here in our area that we service there are some very expensive houses that have gated enterances that are just not wide enough for us to get thru or have no where for us to turn an engine around in near the house.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREINST View Post
    I don't disagree but we are a private fire contractor that services 2 cities under contract so money can be an issue. Also staffing during the day is an issue for us.
    So you don't work for a fire department, like you stated you work for a private fire contractor that sounds like they are not doing a very good job is staffing during the day is an "issue."

    Do yourself a favor and run.......
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Some type of a QRV is a practical idea.

    In the long run, it is much more effective than running a large engine. Up until a few years ago, we had a 2-door QRV w/ 300g of water and a 250 gpm pump at our central Station until it became too unreliable, and we relocated it as a service truck to one of the volunteer stations.

    We replaced it with a similar 2-door vehicle, but with out the fire attack capabilities. This truck carried just medical, rescue and fire support equipment, and it has worked very well. We have been able to save many miles off our heavy rescue truck as we have been able to utilize it for most EMS calls instead. There have been many times we had replaced to older vehicle with a vehicle similar to the previous one (with light fire attack capabilities).
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-25-2009 at 06:59 PM.

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    We have an EMS QRS. We have one ambulance in town and alot of calls so the QRS suburban helps to lessen the burden. Its great with rescues and can hop from call to call because it is not a transporting unit. It also tows our Hazmat trailer and our Water rescue trailer. All in all a good truck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    So you don't work for a fire department, like you stated you work for a private fire contractor that sounds like they are not doing a very good job is staffing during the day is an "issue."

    Do yourself a favor and run.......
    I do work for a vol dept. We are a private fire contactor that contracts fire protection services to the two communities that we serve. I also work for a company that provide's fire instruction and rescue education as a member of an active burn team.

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    The negativity of this site is amazing sometimes. I want to laugh, but it's so pathetic, I should cry.

    Anyways, back to the point of the op, I think a quick attack vehicle is absolutely worth discussing. A smaller vehicle that uses less fuel and can accomplish the same as an engine on a small, medical call is a no brainer.

    But, I'll probably get blazed for thinking "outside" the normal response of the larger departments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    So you maintain crew integrity.

    People need to stop treating the fire service delivery like a business - always worried about the bottom line. It is not a business, it is a service that costs money. What's next? Why don't you send the band aide response vehicle on reported house fires as well? After all, many times they really are not or it is very small. Why burn the deisel and wear down the tires on the $300,000 engine?

    It is a slippery slope, IMO. You need runs on your equipment and your personnel in order to justify their existence. It won't be long until the business minded Chief, town manager, or mayor comes up with the bright idea that the new engine and the 2 guys staying back at the station really are not needed.
    Sounds like words of wisdom to me. Plus, to all those QRV believers...If your Mom or Dad were in cardiac arrest how many firefighters would you want showing up? Two or four? Well, if you are business minded two will do. Because, all you want to accomplish is to run a more efficient service. As long as there's a vehicle in front of the house we did our job. However, if you loved your family member I'm sure you would pick four.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetpete View Post
    The negativity of this site is amazing sometimes. I want to laugh, but it's so pathetic, I should cry.

    Anyways, back to the point of the op, I think a quick attack vehicle is absolutely worth discussing. A smaller vehicle that uses less fuel and can accomplish the same as an engine on a small, medical call is a no brainer.

    But, I'll probably get blazed for thinking "outside" the normal response of the larger departments.
    It is so negative because young guns think they are the $hit. The older guys have to explain something so many times it just gets old.

    OP-I am a fan of just running with the pumper. We run medicals with our brush truck and medical squad. I don't like the way we do it. We have no turnouts with us. If we get a fire we are out of luck. More vehicles are on the road if we need help. We could have a full crew if we all rode togather. You will also have to maintain several medical kits with multiple vehicle. Its a cost many don't seem to see around here until stuff starts to expire. Save your money and put it into vehicle up keep.

    The only plus is it is easier to back out a driveway with a small rig.

    The city will see only two guys leave and wonder why the others are on the clock if they don't do anything. It happened right infront of me. The city cut funding because "all we run is medical and two can handle it."
    FF/Paramedic

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    We used to run Med calls with a brush truck, we only had 2 guys staffed at the house anyways. But after numerous calls where the engine was needed or could have been needed we switched to running the engine, even with only a crew of 2. Now we are staffed at 4 per house and still run the engines everywhere. We run 1400 -1500 calls a year and have only put 70,000 miles on the trucks in 7 years. We cover 126 sq miles. There was a small savings in fuel with the QRV method, but it was out weighed by not having the engines with us when needed. Besides running a cardiac with 4 guys and 2 ambulance staff is alot easier than 2 and 2. The medic can worry more about obtaining a secure airway and starting a line and reading rythms rather than trying to load the patient, do compressions, provide respirations, and so on.

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    OP- Out in California, we would call those units "Patrols". They can do medicals (EMT or Paramedic), fight a small amount of fire, land a helicopter, etc. LA County has Patrols and EST (Emergency Support Team) Its like a little 2 person, do it all company.

    Typical Patrol units-




    Nevada Division of Forestry has a nice Patrol. I like the pump panel, cross lay area and the roll-up doors-


    LA County's EST-





    I am also big on keep the engine together for all calls, etc. But you have to do whats right for your area and department. Good luck.
    Last edited by CALFFBOU; 05-27-2009 at 03:12 AM.

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    I am a volunteer here in small borough in Pittsburgh, PA. We just recently started running QRS in our company. We run out of a 2007 Ford Expedition. We have a slide out tray that houses your typical BLS equipment; first-in bag, A.E.D, suction unit, LBB, splints, boxes of gloves & 02 cylinder. As well as; 2 SCBAs, set of irons, water can, dry cem extinguisher, & 2 box lights.

    When we are in-service to respond to medical calls, we roll as a fire unit a well. Typically being first on-scene we have 2 structural guys ready and geared up to go. Basically we either go in to investigate or wait for the engine and grab a TIC depending on the call. WE HAVE HAD SOME CRYING about the QRS crew responding to fire calls, however; when our station is dispatched it takes our sqaud automatically out of service, and put onto the run cards for the fire call.

    I believe it best to have a set piece designated for responding to medical calls. I do not agree with using engines or trucks for your main QRS unit IMO.

    ***Attached is a picture of our squad, doesn't show much but does show the basic function of the slide out tray

    http://bellevuefirerescue.us/apparatus.html here is a link to our apparatus page
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Default The fire SUV :)

    Around here, many of the countryside VFD's have a van or suv to run medical calls, they can get there before the ambulance, which might have a longer distance to cover. Usually 2 guys there, more if there happends to be more guys at the station. But no waiting around for more than 2 guys.

    The vehicles get there quicker than large engines or trucks, and who knows, there might be some tricky terrain there as well where big rigs can't go. There is no real point to tie up a fully staffed fire engine with a medical call unless it's a multiple-patient situation.

    But quick-response for any other situations than EMS don't really exist here, unless you count batallion chief or assistant batallion chief that sometimes arrive first, they have air packs, forcible entry tools and fire extinguishers in their vehicles. They tend to stick with the size-up and all that stuff...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    So you maintain crew integrity.

    People need to stop treating the fire service delivery like a business - always worried about the bottom line. It is not a business, it is a service that costs money. What's next? Why don't you send the band aide response vehicle on reported house fires as well? After all, many times they really are not or it is very small. Why burn the deisel and wear down the tires on the $300,000 engine?

    It is a slippery slope, IMO. You need runs on your equipment and your personnel in order to justify their existence. It won't be long until the business minded Chief, town manager, or mayor comes up with the bright idea that the new engine and the 2 guys staying back at the station really are not needed.


    As Memphis34 said, drop this idea before it gets started. Once you get into it. It is hard to get out of it.

    The bean counters are going to see this and use it against the department when the Chief asks for this or that!

    If you send an engine or truck on an EMS call, providing you have a minimum of 4 members riding, and then clear up, you have a crew that can take a fire call and do something if you make the scene first.
    If you have two members on a brush truck or QRV and no hose, water and even if you do, you are going to look like tunnieville until a full fledge fire company arrives on the scene.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    What's next? Why don't you send the band aide response vehicle on reported house fires as well? After all, many times they really are not or it is very small.
    Well, of course! You either need a 2.5 gallon water can or a bulldozer. If the can doesn't put it out....

    I'm a big fan of using an SUV or light rescue to run medical calls as a 1st responder service, after watching an FD run a $750,000 aerial screaming through the streets to n/v/d calls.

    The ideal thing would be to get a vehicle you can use for EMS, wildland, and other misc stuff.

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    I do not like the idea of breaking up the on duty crew. Either all respond in the engine, or all respond in the QRV.

    If you respond in the engine, you have all your tools you need to take care of anything, fire or EMS. If you respond in the QRV to a fire, you have your people and you can hopefully make a good stop or at least a slow down. Also in the QRV, you should have an engine company back you up anyways.

    We have a pick up truck with a crew cab and slide out tray in the back for EMS runs. It's sole purpose is to respond to EMS calls and shuttle personnel around. You never know when a small fire suitable for a QRV will turn into something bigger than it can handle.

    I say take the engine. Then you are prepared for anything that comes in.
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    Here we have 5 full time ff/medics on duty at all times with 3 on the Engine and 2 on a Life Squad (Medic Unit) If an EMS call comes in that warrants a full station response (i.e.- Full Arrest, Unresponsive, Fall from significant height, etc) the duty crew will roll the Engine and Life Squad as they do for all calls, then once the POC guys get to the station, they will roll Rescue 533 which is the closest to a QRV that we have. It is a 2008 Dodge Ram 3500 HD with the Cummins diesel. We have a large Chrysler plant in our township and I guess we got a pretty good deal on it. This truck carries a full compliment of BLS equipment (airway, trauma, backboard, and AED) at times we will also throw a drug box on if there is a medic responding as well.

    However, if the duty crew is out on a normal call (diabetic, ill, chest pain, etc) and a second call comes in, the POC guys will not take the pickup, but take one of the other two medic units.

    The pickup also carries some of our water and ice rescue equipment as it is used to tow our boat. 6 lifejackets, chemlights, etc. Also, 4 Mustang suits are kept in this truck so it can roll out first to any ice or cold water rescue. In these situations, the 2 FFs assigned to the Medic for the day will take that and the 3 FFs from the engine will jump in the pickup with everyone throwing a suit on except the driver. Then once the POC personnel respond, they will take our heavy rescue to the scene which carries the remainder of our water/ice rescue equipment.

    Think I hit everything.

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    I never got the idea of doing this. Spend thousands on a fire truck, then have it sit at the fire house and do miss a fire because you were riding around in your little pick up doing EMS.

    How much wear and tear do you really put on it anyways? How often does your FD replace their trucks?

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    Well, I had a rather detailed response, but FH decided to log me out while I was typing, so here's my abreviated thoughts.

    In a F/T setting, crew integrity is essential. There is no excuse for splitting up the crew in that manner. If you are able to have a unit with dedicated crew, that is excellent. In a volunteer setting, it is definately feasable, just remember regardless of the situation and setting, you need to do whatever is going to be the best and safest for your department.
    Stay Safe

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    We have a crown vic that we run behind the ambulance if we dont have enough members to staff a truck. Otherwise depending on how many extra members show up we run the following trucks in order.

    crown vic- 1 or an officer can take this car & establish IC

    tanker- 2 members

    engine- atleast 2 members no more than 3. due to the open bench seat (1984 smeal pumper) we will not allow anybody to ride outside the cab.

    Quint- 3 or more members- also depends on where the call is due to tight areas that it will not fit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    I never got the idea of doing this. Spend thousands on a fire truck, then have it sit at the fire house and do miss a fire because you were riding around in your little pick up doing EMS.

    How much wear and tear do you really put on it anyways? How often does your FD replace their trucks?
    We put our engines in reserve after 15 years of service, usually with 100,000+ miles. I understand the benefit of running QRV's to EMS calls to save wear on the engines, but cross-staffing the engine and QRV is a dangerous gamble. I can think of multiple times within the past year that we ran from an EMS call to a fire call.

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    Default "In politics, what begins in fear usually ends in folly."

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    So you maintain crew integrity.

    People need to stop treating the fire service delivery like a business - always worried about the bottom line. It is not a business, it is a service that costs money. What's next? Why don't you send the band aide response vehicle on reported house fires as well? After all, many times they really are not or it is very small. Why burn the deisel and wear down the tires on the $300,000 engine?

    It is a slippery slope, IMO. You need runs on your equipment and your personnel in order to justify their existence. It won't be long until the business minded Chief, town manager, or mayor comes up with the bright idea that the new engine and the 2 guys staying back at the station really are not needed.
    To MemphisE34a
    I know it's a "Slippery slope" but people "stopped treating the Fire Dept like a business" and now we are all having to provide a service "at the bottom line." Since it "costs money." Now we have to send the "Band aid response vehicle on the reported house fire" because our fire depts. can’t afford "the $300,000 engine" I wish we would have had "a business minded Chief" at least now we wouldn’t have had to lay off the "2 guys staying back at the station and we would have been able to "maintain crew integrity"" ---IMO
    Last edited by joeff1974; 08-14-2010 at 01:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 108ffEMT103 View Post
    I am a volunteer here in small borough in Pittsburgh, PA. We just recently started running QRS in our company. We run out of a 2007 Ford Expedition. We have a slide out tray that houses your typical BLS equipment; first-in bag, A.E.D, suction unit, LBB, splints, boxes of gloves & 02 cylinder. As well as; 2 SCBAs, set of irons, water can, dry cem extinguisher, & 2 box lights.

    When we are in-service to respond to medical calls, we roll as a fire unit a well. Typically being first on-scene we have 2 structural guys ready and geared up to go. Basically we either go in to investigate or wait for the engine and grab a TIC depending on the call. WE HAVE HAD SOME CRYING about the QRS crew responding to fire calls, however; when our station is dispatched it takes our sqaud automatically out of service, and put onto the run cards for the fire call.

    I believe it best to have a set piece designated for responding to medical calls. I do not agree with using engines or trucks for your main QRS unit IMO.

    ***Attached is a picture of our squad, doesn't show much but does show the basic function of the slide out tray

    http://bellevuefirerescue.us/apparatus.html here is a link to our apparatus page
    Hello from Baden

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