1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonbat
    That article reads:

    "The U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could cost taxpayers a total of $2.4 trillion by 2017..."

    Thanks for taking the time to prove yourself wrong again libtard.
    Hey moonbat, the article indeed says "could." That means there is a possibility they "could" cost MORE.

    Which puts me closer to my claim of the war's cost than your claim of Obama not being a citizen.

    Thwup...Thwup...Thwup...Thwup...Thwup...Thwup...Th wup...Thwup...Thwup...Thwup...Thwup...Thwup...Thwu p
    Last edited by scfire86; 06-11-2009 at 10:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Hey moonbat, the article indeed says "could." That means there is a possibility they "could" cost MORE.

    Which puts me closer to my claim of the war's cost than your claim of Obama not being a citizen.

    Thwup...Thwup...Thwup...Thwup...Thwup...Thwup...Th wup...Thwup...Thwup...Thwup...Thwup...Thwup...Thwu p
    Which means the amount might be 2.4 trillion, split between two wars. So Iraq might reach 1.2 Trillion. Plus they include interest which falsely inflates the numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    So are both of you saying that conservatives have always believed it was okay to criticize the military and NOT be considered traitors?

    A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.
    "yes" or "no"









    To claim "conservatives" do this or that is too vague. If you have a quote where someone made that claim, post it.

    You have your crazies on the left and we have some on the right. Means nothing. Your statement was silly, pure and simple.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    "yes" or "no"

    To claim "conservatives" do this or that is too vague. If you have a quote where someone made that claim, post it.

    You have your crazies on the left and we have some on the right. Means nothing. Your statement was silly, pure and simple.
    Nice dodge. Let me ask it another way.

    Are you saying conservatives (on these boards) never called anyone a traitor for being critical of the troops?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Nice dodge. Let me ask it another way.

    Are you saying conservatives (on these boards) never called anyone a traitor for being critical of the troops?
    To be honest... I dunno. Probably.

    So what?

    You do this from time to time. It's cute and all, but pretty unimaginative.

    Oh well, get down with your bad self!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Nice dodge. Let me ask it another way.

    Are you saying conservatives (on these boards) never called anyone a traitor for being critical of the troops?
    I can't speak for the conservatives, but I can say that when one is critical of the troops they are definitely scum. However, if one is critical of their mission to keep us free then yes, they are a traitor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    To be honest... I dunno. Probably.

    So what?

    You do this from time to time. It's cute and all, but pretty unimaginative.

    Oh well, get down with your bad self!
    Really? Calling someone a traitor is pretty unimaginative?

    Then there are a lot of unimaginative folks on these boards.

    I've never called anyone a traitor for disagreeing with me or being critical of the military.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Really? Calling someone a traitor is pretty unimaginative?

    Then there are a lot of unimaginative folks on these boards.

    I've never called anyone a traitor for disagreeing with me or being critical of the military.
    Well, people say a lot of things and yes, there are a lot of unimaginative people on these boards.

    However, your question was "So are both of you saying that conservatives have always believed it was okay to criticize the military and NOT be considered traitors?"

    That's a wide net you were casting. At least now we know who you were really talking about.

    I believe that conservatives have always felt that to criticize the "military" was free speech and protected by our constitution in most cases.

    However, some speech could be treasonous and could be prosecuted. For instance, Jane Fonda's actions during the Vietnam war, it could be argued, satisfied the four conditions (established by the courts) that warrant a charge of treason:

    (1) an overt act, (2) testified to by two witnesses, (3) manifesting an intent to betray the United States (which can be inferred from the overt act itself), and (4) providing aid and comfort to the enemy.

    .
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I can't speak for the conservatives, but I can say that when one is critical of the troops they are definitely scum. However, if one is critical of their mission to keep us free then yes, they are a traitor.
    Scarecrow, I think maybe that calling someone a traitor if they disagree with the govts position on a military issue is hardly treason. Govts make mistakes, e.g. Vietnam, and even sucessive govts have admitted it. I would think that that would be protected very strongly under your constitution on free speech. Personally, I feel our govt here is wrong for continuing to stay in Afghanistan. I think we've lost 119 young men and women with absolutely nothing to show for it on the positive side. You've lost a heck of a lot more.
    wasn't it one of your patriots that said something like " I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend unto death your right to say it"

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Maybe put them on the beach in Cuba, tell em, "Floridas 75 mi that way, if you are good swimmers, you'll make it in 3 days" Marcellama MF.

    Guantanomo Bay,Cuba is on the southeast corner of the island.The harbor has a dogleg from SSW to NNE if I remember correctly.The last time I was there was in February and March of 1988 for fleet refresher training.
    They'd have to swim out to sea,around the island and then head North to America.
    That'd be some damned determined terrs if they pulled that off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    Guantanomo Bay,Cuba is on the southeast corner of the island.The harbor has a dogleg from SSW to NNE if I remember correctly.The last time I was there was in February and March of 1988 for fleet refresher training.
    They'd have to swim out to sea,around the island and then head North to America.
    That'd be some damned determined terrs if they pulled that off.
    Yes Doug, but it would be so good for the environment and the ecological food chain. Just think of all those well fed sharks and those lower on the food chain.

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    Default Closing Gitmo

    I could say yes to closing Gitmo but if the US govt is going to do that then they better have another place to send them. Until then they can sit right where they are an bask in the warm sun of the Caribbean and get sun burn.

    And sending those detainees to a maxium security prison here in the US is not the place to send them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Nice dodge. Let me ask it another way.

    Are you saying conservatives (on these boards) never called anyone a traitor for being critical of the troops?
    I beleive a lot of people get this opinion based on the idiocy of some liberals over recent history. Specifically from Vietnam on and those who think targeting soldiers for protests is a good idea (remember the warm reception vietnam vets got....).

    I wholey and fully support your right to protest war/military action etc. I just draw the line when individuals take out their anger/protests on people who have little if any say in what they are to do. The 'troops' do what the command authority dictates. You protest the command authority, not the poor soldiers coming home. (you praise them for thier willing sacrifice on your behalf)

    I guess what I am saying is target your disapproval to the right location and thank God that you have people willing to sacrifice everything so you can voice your opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Scarecrow, I think maybe that calling someone a traitor if they disagree with the govts position on a military issue is hardly treason. Govts make mistakes, e.g. Vietnam, and even sucessive govts have admitted it. I would think that that would be protected very strongly under your constitution on free speech. Personally, I feel our govt here is wrong for continuing to stay in Afghanistan. I think we've lost 119 young men and women with absolutely nothing to show for it on the positive side. You've lost a heck of a lot more.
    wasn't it one of your patriots that said something like " I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend unto death your right to say it"
    well we had a bunch of Jihadist in Gitmo to show for it until recently. Now we turn them loose to return to the battle.

    I would say that one can disagree with the government and it's decisions. But giving aid and comfort to the enemy is a treasonous act. And what I said is if you disagree with our military fighting to keep us free then that is a traitor. Recall that up until 2001 the U.S. was getting attacked on a regular basis, since that time there have been no other attacks. So apparently the policies were working. Now we have N Korea going wild and Iran telling us to shove it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    well we had a bunch of Jihadist in Gitmo to show for it until recently. Now we turn them loose to return to the battle.

    I would say that one can disagree with the government and it's decisions. But giving aid and comfort to the enemy is a treasonous act. And what I said is if you disagree with our military fighting to keep us free then that is a traitor. Recall that up until 2001 the U.S. was getting attacked on a regular basis, since that time there have been no other attacks. So apparently the policies were working. Now we have N Korea going wild and Iran telling us to shove it.
    I certainly agree that giving aid and comfort to the enemy would definitely be treason. I don't think that disagreeing with being involved in Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan comes close to the above definition. As far as keeping your country safe and free, I think it has a lot more to do with your DHS, intelligence gathering, and beefing up security procedures at airports. Quite frankly, pre 911, security at many airports was abysmal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    ...Govts make mistakes, e.g. Vietnam, True, but I'll bet you have no idea what the mistakes were. I'm sure out student of all things SC will preach to us. Vietnam/SE Asia history post WWII is rather interesting but you have to weed out the BS of the hippie drug generation (see also SC). and even sucessive govts have admitted it. I would think that that would be protected very strongly under your constitution on free speech. Personally, I feel our govt here is wrong for continuing to stay in Afghanistan. I think we've lost 119 young men and women with absolutely nothing to show for it on the positive side. You've lost a heck of a lot more.
    wasn't it one of your patriots that said something like " I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend unto death your right to say it"
    The Afganis certainly have a lot to show for it. And as there has not been another successful terrorist attack on the US (or Canada) in the last 8 year we have something to show for it. So you would be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    The Afganis certainly have a lot to show for it. And as there has not been another successful terrorist attack on the US (or Canada) in the last 8 year we have something to show for it. So you would be wrong.
    I agree that the Afghanis are certainly the receipients of a ton of aid, but the country is still in the dark ages in most things, the drug trade there has skyrockted, the war is now spreading into the tribal areas of Pakistan which could well destabilize the govt. Keep in mind, this is a country with Nukes. I doubt we or any other western country wants Osama or some of his followers in a position like that. Also regards absence of attacks, see my post on heightened security and intelligence gathering post 911.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Well, people say a lot of things and yes, there are a lot of unimaginative people on these boards.
    So calling someone a traitor is not a big deal then, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    However, your question was "So are both of you saying that conservatives have always believed it was okay to criticize the military and NOT be considered traitors?"

    That's a wide net you were casting. At least now we know who you were really talking about.
    Who do you believe I was referring?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    I believe that conservatives have always felt that to criticize the "military" was free speech and protected by our constitution in most cases.
    That would exclude many on these boards.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    However, some speech could be treasonous and could be prosecuted. For instance, Jane Fonda's actions during the Vietnam war, it could be argued, satisfied the four conditions (established by the courts) that warrant a charge of treason:

    (1) an overt act, (2) testified to by two witnesses, (3) manifesting an intent to betray the United States (which can be inferred from the overt act itself), and (4) providing aid and comfort to the enemy.

    .
    Yet she was never charged or tried for treason. Apparently those who administer the law believed otherwise.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    So calling someone a traitor is not a big deal then, right?


    Who do you believe I was referring?


    That would exclude many on these boards.


    Yet she was never charged or tried for treason. Apparently those who administer the law believed otherwise.

    I think that probably had a lot more to do with the political climate at the time in the US. Just a guess, but if her or any other so called entertainer stood up with Osama over in Afghanistan or Pakistan, they may be given short shrift back home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    So calling someone a traitor is not a big deal then, right?
    It's one of the biggest insults that I can think of.

    Who do you believe I was referring?
    No idea.

    That would exclude many on these boards.
    Yes, lots of crazies on here.

    Yet she was never charged or tried for treason. Apparently those who administer the law believed otherwise.
    Doesn't mean it wasn't treasonous. Just means she wasn't prosecuted. There was no way that administration would've done that. Politically there was no will.

    However, what she did was disgusting and wrong.

    .
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    I visited Dachau last year, and one of the thoughts that came through my head while walking through the concentration camp was Guantanamo Bay.

    Who here has been to Guantanamo? Who has seen 1st hand what goes on there? All we know is what the Government wants us to know, and we hope that we can trust them to tell us the truth. We used to be the moral anchor of the world, now we lock up people without trial and torture them because they did us wrong? How do you know that the people at Guantanamo Bay are even guilty? Because the government said so? They Government also said there were WMD's in Iraq.

    I don't think that Guantanamo Bay is anywhere close to Dachau, but I can easily see the PR nightmare that it has caused. Whatever info we might have obtained, and whatever lives we might have saved with our "advanced interrogation" are going to be lost by the sympathy that the bad guys will get because we "tortured" and "illegally" imprisoned the "holy warriors". They will use Guantanamo Bay as a rallying cry and use it to recruit more people.

    These people are willing to die for their cause, do you think locking them up will deter them?

    But if I look at Dachau, and I look at Guantanamo Bay I do get worried. Especially when I read these comments:
    So what this tells a ground pounder who encounters these otherwise fine and upstanding jihadists is that instead of sending them to Gitmo, you ought to just waste them there. Bullets are cheap.
    These are not shoplifters, gangbangers, drug pushers, or any other kind of CRIMINAL. These are baby killing, suicide bombing, raping, mayhem creating, radical islamist filth. They are not US citizens and THEY HAVE NO CONSITITUTIONAL RIGHTS. They have no right to charges, a trial of any kind, or the ACLU. They don't even have the right to continue to live until dawn tomorrow. It is by the grace and mercy of the citizens of US if they do.

    They are TERRORISTS. Every damn one of the POS in Gitmo. In a just world every one of them would have been double tap (in the guts) on contact.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    It's one of the biggest insults that I can think of.
    Several individuals have called me and Nozz that on more than one occasion because I was critical of Bush's policies.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    No idea.
    Don't play stupid. Besides we have an expert in scareidiot.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Yes, lots of crazies on here.
    Who threw out the "T" word on more than one occasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Doesn't mean it wasn't treasonous. Just means she wasn't prosecuted. There was no way that administration would've done that. Politically there was no will.
    Which administration?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    However, what she did was disgusting and wrong.

    .
    And she's apologized for her actions and expressed regret on numerous occasions. I guess forgiveness towards liberals isn't allowed.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Several individuals have called me and Nozz that on more than one occasion because I was critical of Bush's policies.


    Don't play stupid. Besides we have an expert in scareidiot.


    Who threw out the "T" word on more than one occasion.


    Which administration?


    And she's apologized for her actions and expressed regret on numerous occasions. I guess forgiveness towards liberals isn't allowed.


    Sorry SC, thats pure unadulterated BS. Her apologising for her actions is akin to Jeffrey Dahmer or Wayne Gacy apologising. What she did was spit on the 56,000 young men and women who gave their all as well as the untold numbers that came back crippled either physically or psychologically. And she did it for purely selfish reasons, to keep her name in front of the public so she could make more grade B movies and songs. She truly does fit the persona of a traitor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Several individuals have called me and Nozz that on more than one occasion because I was critical of Bush's policies.
    Would you like a hankie?

    Don't play stupid. Besides we have an expert in scareidiot.
    Who's playing. I am stoopid.

    Who threw out the "T" word on more than one occasion.
    Congrats, I would imagine you were deeply wounded by that.

    Which administration?
    Nixon's. He was trying to end the Democrats' war at that point, so I'm sure he didn't want to upset the applecart.

    And she's apologized for her actions and expressed regret on numerous occasions. I guess forgiveness towards liberals isn't allowed.
    It's not my place to forgive. The fact that her apologies coincided with her movie releases is probably just coincidence.

    Either way, forgiven or not, the actions happened.

    Anyway, way off topic at this point.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Would you like a hankie?
    No just pointing out the usual hypocrisy that permeates conservatives. Any one critical of Bush was either a traitor or deemed to have blind hatred of him and how everyone should respect the office of the President since he was our leader. Now conservatives are openly critical of the President. What could have happened in the last nine months to change that mindset?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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