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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeatherHed4Life View Post
    I believe 13a says that standpipe systems are designed for use with 2.5 in hose and clearly states that fog nozzles should not be used off the standpipe
    I can't find anything in NFPA standards on this. It would make too much sense for them to make such a useful statement as you've presented.

    NFPA 14 is the standard for installation of standpipe systems. The only thing I've seen about 2.5" hose is with regard to the FDC. They require at least two 2.5" inlets.
    NFPA 13E talks about FD operations in sprinklered and standpipe equipped buildings. Again, I can find no mention of the use of specific size hose on the standpipe outlets.

    The videos provided by MG say it all. I'm sure those who don't want to believe will question the flow meter. Some will continue to use 2" hose and call it "close enough". At least it will be interesting to see someone try and defend the fog nozzle use? Anyone? Anyone still need to have their own injured or worse to get it? Anyone? I'll bet some of you are out there?

  2. #27
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    The videos do not show what a fixed gallonage or selectable gallonage
    "Fog" nozzle would do in the given scenario. It showed an automatic. For
    guys who don't realize.... there is a huge difference between the different
    types of nozzles.

    In theory a 250gpm fixed or selectable gallonage "fog" nozzle at 50psi NP
    will still give about 175-180 gpm....That is quite acceptable in my opinion.
    With that fog tip on a break-apart and a 1 1/8" smoothbore what more do
    you want.


    Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by don120 View Post
    In theory a 250gpm fixed or selectable gallonage "fog" nozzle at 50psi NP
    will still give about 175-180 gpm....That is quite acceptable in my opinion.
    While I agree, that the video is perfect proof of the danger of automatic nozzles, the fixed gallonage or selectable flow fog will not fix the clogged nozzle problem. Even the break apart style may get clogged beyond the point of rapid clearing. While fog nozzle put out lots of fire every day, why would we want to increase the risk of a dangerous situation by ignoring the facts proven over and over in standpipe operations?

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    I love the videos, and am glad that somebody has taken the time to put them together.

    However, a few things would have helped make the presentation appear a bit more objective:

    1. After using the fog on the 1 3/4", use a smoothbore on the 1 3/4" (e.g. 15/16ths)

    2. Before using the smoothbore (1 1/8") on the 2 1/2", use a fog (250 gpm) on the 2 1/2"

    3. Show fixed gallonage, low pressure fog

    4. Show a break-apart setup

    5. Show a fog nozzle without the stupid TFT screen


    Having said all that, it would still lead to the obvious conclusion that 2 1/2" with a smoothbore is the only truly appropriate configration. I just think adding at least some of the variables above would make it appear more objective, and leave nothing for the nay-sayers to argue with.

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    It should be noted that the reason for the specific comparison is due to the process of R&D in Richmond. Currently companies are operating with the TFT, the 2 1/2" and SB is in process of being phased in. I was told these videos were taken a bit ago when the case was being built to implement the changeover.

  6. #31
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    We have standpipes in my City but we rarely use them. Never had a need to use them, so far anyway. Our high rise pack currently is 200' of 1 1/2" hose with a Chief fog nozzle. This opened my eyes to the flows and seems to be a strong fight for smoothbore nozzles. I personally like fog nozzles for just about all fire attacks for a couple of reasons. First, it is all I was trained in and all that is used in my area. Second, fog nozzles use less water (obviously, but this can be good for less water damage but bad for less firefighting power and gallons) I have done my own research on the fog vs. smooth bore deal and find that both have their place, there is no "one size fits all" type of thing.

    In this case, I can really see the difference. Just might have to make some changes here. I can honestly say that in my time in Altoona, we have not had to use a standpipe system, that I can remember. Most of you guys are the experts in this area.

    And on a side note, we put the few TFT nozzles that we have as spare in the trucks. Just because of the same situation of the debris. Couldn't convince the ***'t Chief to get rid of them totally but I guess in the compartment is better than on the line. Baby steps right?
    Jason Knecht
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    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    We have standpipes in my City but we rarely use them. Never had a need to use them, so far anyway. Our high rise pack currently is 200' of 1 1/2" hose with a Chief fog nozzle. This opened my eyes to the flows and seems to be a strong fight for smoothbore nozzles. I personally like fog nozzles for just about all fire attacks for a couple of reasons. First, it is all I was trained in and all that is used in my area. Second, fog nozzles use less water (obviously, but this can be good for less water damage but bad for less firefighting power and gallons) I have done my own research on the fog vs. smooth bore deal and find that both have their place, there is no "one size fits all" type of thing.

    In this case, I can really see the difference. Just might have to make some changes here. I can honestly say that in my time in Altoona, we have not had to use a standpipe system, that I can remember. Most of you guys are the experts in this area.

    And on a side note, we put the few TFT nozzles that we have as spare in the trucks. Just because of the same situation of the debris. Couldn't convince the ***'t Chief to get rid of them totally but I guess in the compartment is better than on the line. Baby steps right?
    What are the heights of the buildings in your area that do have standpipes?

    Have you flowed water in those systems to see what kind of pressure you can get in real-life conditions? You will need a significant amount of pressure to overcome the friction loss in 1 1/2 inch hose over 200 feet and you will obviously need even more pressure if you are using a fog nozzle.

    Can you actually achieve an adequate stream for firefighting in these buildings with your current set up? Not table-top....but actually flowing water?

    Just something to consider.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    We have standpipes in my City but we rarely use them. Never had a need to use them, so far anyway. Our high rise pack currently is 200' of 1 1/2" hose with a Chief fog nozzle. This opened my eyes to the flows and seems to be a strong fight for smoothbore nozzles. I personally like fog nozzles for just about all fire attacks for a couple of reasons. First, it is all I was trained in and all that is used in my area. My initial training, more years ago than I want to talk about, was with combination nozzles too. We were taught to crawl into the room, grab the hose about 18 inches or so back from the nozzle, set the pattern on wide fog and whip the nozzle so the water went into the over head. Times change and we learned that that was really a stupid way to fight fire as we were getting steamed any time there was a serious fire. We changed to using straight streams from the combination nozzle, and then to break aparts with a combo tip backed by a slug tip. I am a firm believer that if you are in the fire area fog is absolutely the wrong pattern for fire attack. Reach is limited, steam production is far greater, visibility is reduced once water application begins, too much application creates a witches brew of hot and black nasty that drops down onto you, and the fallacy that a fog pattern will somehow mystically, magically, save you in a flashover all make their use interior a bad idea to me. The straight stream, or preferrably a smooth bore, give you reach, penetration, and less steam in the fire area.

    Second, fog nozzles use less water (obviously, but this can be good for less water damage but bad for less firefighting power and gallons) I have done my own research on the fog vs. smooth bore deal and find that both have their place, there is no "one size fits all" type of thing.

    How does a fog nozzle flowing 200 gpm use less water than a smoothbore flowing 200 gom? Frankly, the way to use less water is to apply the fire killing water directly to the base of the fire as rapidly as possible. I have seen people at practice house burns use a fog spray at the ceiling until the room was impossible to see into, ventilate the room, and still have the original fire burning merrily away until they applied water directly to the fire.

    In my mind an advantage, often overlooked, with the smoothbore is the inability for the pattern to chnage as you advance the line. Time after time I have seen people set the pattern on a combo nozzle to either straight stream of narrow fog before they enter and by the time they get to the fire it has been rolled on the floor and become a wide fog. One brand of automatic is especially prone to this. I have started training people that use combo nozzles to turn the pattern adjustment all the way to the right and then back about a third of a turn before they attack the fire to ensure they aren't set on wide fog.


    In this case, I can really see the difference. Just might have to make some changes here. I can honestly say that in my time in Altoona, we have not had to use a standpipe system, that I can remember. Most of you guys are the experts in this area.

    1 1/2 inch for a standpipe pack is a disaster in the making. Friction loss, especially to a combo nozzle is going to eat your flow alive. 2 1/2 with a smoothbore for standpipe work of any altitude. We use 2 inch but our only standpipes are single story and one 2 story building. I wouold like to see us use 2 1/2, but heck we don't even own any!!

    And on a side note, we put the few TFT nozzles that we have as spare in the trucks. Just because of the same situation of the debris. Couldn't convince the ***'t Chief to get rid of them totally but I guess in the compartment is better than on the line. Baby steps right?


    TFT nozzles, do exactly what they have been designed to do. Fortunately that is a good thing in some cases, and unfortunately it is an incredibly bad thing in others.
    I suggest you take one of your 1 1/2 inch standpipe packs to the top of your tallest standpipes buildings and see how much actual water you get out of it. That ends all speculation and is undeniable proof.

  9. #34
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    This is in no way meant as a criticism to anyone from any department, it is just an observation.

    It seems as though the departments that use anything other than 2-1/2 inch hose with a smoothbore nozzle for standpipe operations are largely departments that have admittedly done very little to no standpipe firefighting.

    While there are certainly exceptions to this, it seems as though departments that do a considerable amount of standpipe work all use 2-1/2 inch hose with smoothbore nozzles.

    The strongest proponents of using smaller diameter hose and adjustable fog nozzles seems to be those that have never actually operated off a standpipe during an actual fire.

    Again, this is not a criticism or an attack on anyone, just an observation I have made over the course of a long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Second, fog nozzles use less water (obviously, but this can be good for less water damage but bad for less firefighting power and gallons) I have done my own research on the fog vs. smooth bore deal and find that both have their place, there is no "one size fits all" type of thing.

    How does a fog nozzle flowing 200 gpm use less water than a smoothbore flowing 200 gom? Frankly, the way to use less water is to apply the fire killing water directly to the base of the fire as rapidly as possible.
    I was thinking the same thing when I read that post.

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