1. #1
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    Default Cleveland Load: Good or Bad?

    Again, looking for some information. Who has ever seen, played with, or even used a Cleveland Load or Loop on an actual fire. What are the benefits in your mind to this load? What are the disadvatages to using the load?

    Your input is highly desired and greatly appreciated!

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    Havn't had a chance to use one on a fire, but we have them on the trucks. They deploy awesome and there is no issue with humping hose or flaking. Only thing I can think of is that they are a little awkward to carry when compared to other high rise loads.
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    Same here, drilled with it but havent used it on a real fire> seems good

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    Bump..........

    Is the Cleveland load really not being used that much? I would love to hear from someone who has actually used it on a fire. There are plenty of Youtube videos out there showing how it is deployed. I would guess it is used in a bunch of departments. Isn't there someone out there who uses it and watches the forums here? I would love to try and implement this, and I would really appreciate it some input on it's actual use. Thanks
    Chris Polimeni
    Prince George's County FD
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    Default Works very well

    Yes...It works very well. We have trained with it and have used it on about 6 fires now and it deploys without a hitch.
    The best thing is it doesnt have to be fully deployed to start attacking the fire.

    We use a 2 1/2 and a 1 3/4.
    Last edited by firedog14; 06-05-2009 at 09:00 PM.

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    i have used the cleveland load on forestry lines in order to extend the line in the woods. they worked great for this purpose. We used the term metro pack instead of cleveland load, but it looks like the same thing. My only concern with using it on highrise packs is the reduced pressure on the standpipe might cause problems. If in PRVs are present is their enough pressure to "pop" all the kinks out of the line? Does anyone know the minimum pressure needed to expand the loops? I can see where it would be good for a leader line or apartment line though.

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    Looks nice for forestry work.......and that's where it should stay...IMO.

    1.75" is NOT a hose for high rises (75" and higher)....a six story building that is stand piped is just that, a 6 story building with a standpipe....not a high rise....'nuf said......anyone who have fought a true high rise fire knows this
    I'll stick to a 2.5" and the new chicken stick.

    I am sure a 2.5" will kink, and deployment will get tangled. Besides, that big loop of spaghetti will cause quite the trip hazard for the brothers, I'll stick with flaking out to the half landing and let gravity work in my favor.

    That bag is crap, its an aviators helmet bag and tears easily....can't figure out why they use it.


    I can't find a video where they actually charged this in a hallway.....they are usually on some lot or in quarters.....how does that prove it works.....
    You can even hear one guy say in one of the videos...."its not supposed to kink like that......".......

    WTF????? STOP TRYING TO RE-INVENT THE WHEEL


    Bottom line....it doesn't interest me......I am certain we would never adopt it.....and seriously.......what does the NFPA say about this.....???
    Last edited by VinnieB; 06-07-2009 at 11:26 AM.
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    Thanks for some more replies. The highest high rise we have around is 16 floors. Of course the fires we have had in that building have been on the 16th. I agree with Vinnie's sentiment about big lines, but around here that just isn't feasible. FDNY has the luxury of having enough men for each one to only have to carry 50 feet of 2 1/2, here, one man carries a 200 foot (sometimes 150 foot) standpipe pack. My limited experience has been with charging the hose on the engine bay floor, and it works great there. We have done it and only charged it to 100 psi, and it has payed out with no problems and no kinks. Our SOP is to start at 165 psi pump pressure, then add 5 psi per floor. I would think we would have enough pressure to flow it without problems.

    Firedog14.......do you use 100 foot bundles? If so, when you extend them to make it longer, how do you place the bundles in the stairwell?

    Stay Safe
    Chris Polimeni
    Prince George's County FD
    Back at the Big 29er

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    Well good luck to you, if you say big lines aren't feasible then how do you expect to fight a wind driven fire? There is NO WAY IS HELL that an 1.75 will do the job. We can't even do it with (2) 2.5" in a hallway and have since opted to do away with that tactic and utilize the floor below nozzle that's feed with a 2.5". I don't understand how thermodynamics can be defied in certain parts of the country.....maybe its just us.

    As for the 2.5" 3 members can put it into place. 3 guys.......not 60....so if you can't muster up 3 men.....then I feel for you as you DO have manpower issues.

    Can you share with us the particulars about those jobs you have had on the 16th floor? Building type, construction, stairwell layouts, manpower available, when did the windows fail? The conditions....etc etc? I'd be interested.

    Stay safe,
    IACOJ Member

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB View Post
    There is NO WAY IS HELL that an 1.75 will do the job.
    Never say never, cuz none of those fires are still burning. The 1 3/4 line put the fire out. I will agree in the fact that a 2 1/2 will probably make a quicker job of it, but with our normal situation of only having one man to run the initial line, it would be difficult to get it into position and operate to say the least.

    The building in question is a 16 story (actually 17 including the basement) type 1 multifamily dwelling. Here is a link to a photo....
    http://propimages.apartments.com/102...9/BL010132.JPG

    It is kind of interesting in that the lobby is actually the 2nd floor, and the center stairs are a kind of scissor stair configuration. There are also sets of stairs at each end of each wing. There is a standpipe system in each stairwell.

    It was most definitely NOT a wind driven fire. Fortunately for us, those are a rarity. The fire did not extend past the apartment of origin, and was held in place by the door (no extension to the hallway). As for your snide remark about thermodynamics being different geographically, they are not. But again, we have been fortunate not to run into wind driven fires. I would say that in some of your buildings, if it was NOT a wind driven fire and it was confined to the apartment of origin, a 1 3/4 would get the job done.

    We have a HUGE manpower problem. The fire in question was a good example of it. The first due company failed to respond (the career guys were on the ambo), the 2nd due engine only had 2 (OIC and driver), the 3rd due engine had 4 (OIC, driver and 2 FF), and the fourth due engine had 2(OIC and driver). Both trucks had 3, don't recall what the squad had, but they normally have anywhere from 4-6. That gives 5 personnel to bring handlines up and operate them. Being the top floor, that at least alleviated the need for a line to go above the fire.

    I don't know if that paints enough of a picture for you, but our staffing dictates a lot of our actions and how we operate. FDNY has the luxury of having enough manpower on the fireground to stomp a fire out. I will I am jealous of your staffing. When I was at a house with a truck, it sucked only having two of us to take care of our duties. Unfortunately, many of our chiefs don't call for extra manpower when we have understaffed units. It's a shame, but part of the blame is on us because we do our best to get the job done without the extra help.

    Sorry for hijacking the thread. Back to the original topic.......the cleveland hose load. Still waiting on some replies in regards on how you all deploy two bundles which need to be connected. Thanks

    Stay Safe
    Chris Polimeni
    Prince George's County FD
    Back at the Big 29er

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    Quote my entire sentence.....you missed the part about a wind drive fire can not be controlled by a 1.75".

    Sure a 1.75", can contain a room and content fire in a high rise as can a 2.5 gal PW can.....just as long as the windows do not fail...I can not predict when that happens and I know from experience that when a window fails in a high rise the fire grows at a rapid pass to fast for a 1.75" to handle a 2.5" has trouble holding it back. This shear science.

    3 men to put in place a 2.5" line at a job. The first due engine can a does this on a daily basis in NYC. Yes we have lots of manpower but 9 times out of 10 its only the first due engine who takes up 4 roll ups and the bag. The truck does not help bring up the line, nor does the boss. And for the most part by the time the follow on engines show up the 1st line will be in place.

    I am tired of hearing about 1.75" line being used as high rise lines. History has proven that this is disastrous to us, civilians, and the building. People are literally playing with fire each time they have operated them in high rise buildings. I think we have lost enough guys already from not having enough or any water. How can a dept say they have manpower issues, but still use the 1.75"......a window goes and you'll have a serious manpower issue. 3 men can emplace and operate a 2.5" line....3 men! If a dept can't put 3 men on an initial alarm then they need to come up with a way to do so, especially depts with these types of buildings!!!!

    My job used 1.75" line years ago, then we kept killing and burning members and stopped using that practice. Its common sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cap6888 View Post
    Never say never, cuz none of those fires are still burning. The 1 3/4 line put the fire out. I will agree in the fact that a 2 1/2 will probably make a quicker job of it, but with our normal situation of only having one man to run the initial line, it would be difficult to get it into position and operate to say the least.

    The building in question is a 16 story (actually 17 including the basement) type 1 multifamily dwelling. Here is a link to a photo....
    http://propimages.apartments.com/102...9/BL010132.JPG

    It is kind of interesting in that the lobby is actually the 2nd floor, and the center stairs are a kind of scissor stair configuration. There are also sets of stairs at each end of each wing. There is a standpipe system in each stairwell.

    It was most definitely NOT a wind driven fire. Fortunately for us, those are a rarity. The fire did not extend past the apartment of origin, and was held in place by the door (no extension to the hallway). As for your snide remark about thermodynamics being different geographically, they are not. But again, we have been fortunate not to run into wind driven fires. I would say that in some of your buildings, if it was NOT a wind driven fire and it was confined to the apartment of origin, a 1 3/4 would get the job done.

    We have a HUGE manpower problem. The fire in question was a good example of it. The first due company failed to respond (the career guys were on the ambo), the 2nd due engine only had 2 (OIC and driver), the 3rd due engine had 4 (OIC, driver and 2 FF), and the fourth due engine had 2(OIC and driver). Both trucks had 3, don't recall what the squad had, but they normally have anywhere from 4-6. That gives 5 personnel to bring handlines up and operate them. Being the top floor, that at least alleviated the need for a line to go above the fire.

    I don't know if that paints enough of a picture for you, but our staffing dictates a lot of our actions and how we operate. FDNY has the luxury of having enough manpower on the fireground to stomp a fire out. I will I am jealous of your staffing. When I was at a house with a truck, it sucked only having two of us to take care of our duties. Unfortunately, many of our chiefs don't call for extra manpower when we have understaffed units. It's a shame, but part of the blame is on us because we do our best to get the job done without the extra help.

    Sorry for hijacking the thread. Back to the original topic.......the cleveland hose load. Still waiting on some replies in regards on how you all deploy two bundles which need to be connected. Thanks

    Stay Safe
    1 3/4 won't do the job safely...period. All you safety nazis out there for some inexplicable reason want to roll the dice with a hose that wasn't designed to be used on most highrise standpipe systems.

    I've done it with three men...(really only two as the Control man had to stay with the outlet) just a few months ago when the 2nd Due Engine was delayed first by traffic then a malfunctioning elevator. It isn't pretty but it can be done. In reality considering most FDs and their staffing...it would take 2 engines to get 3-4 men to stretch a line! How many men do you assign to stretch the first line as per policy?

    FTM-PTB

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    Vinnie- when I quoted you, I was referring to the job down here. Again, I stated it was not a wind driven fire. And I also agreed that a 2 1/2 would be better. I guess I don't get credit for any of this tho.

    Vinnie, I truly am not familliar with the ins and outs of wind driven fires. At what height/story, does it start becoming a big issue? I know high winds can cause problems at any fire, but with regards to high rises, is there a height at which a failed window will automatically turn it into a wind driven fire?

    We have not had the issues that you all (FDNY) have had, and we certainly don't run the amount of highrise fires you all do. But in all the ones I can think of, and I don't recall any of them being wind driven fires with heavy fire being pushed into the hallways, they all went out with 1 3/4 hoses and no injuries. Is luck with us? I am sure that is part of it. We talk every day about how we have had a golden horsehoe up our azzes, especially with our lack of manpower.

    FFFred-Not sure if the safety nazi comment was directed at me, not sure how my comments can be taken that way. But I digress, our SOPs call for the first engine to stretch the first line. More often than not, our first engine has two, the OIC and driver. This means the OIC has to bring everything up by himself. Again, the 2nd due engine is supposed to assist with getting the first line in service or getting a back up line in service. And also again, our 2nd engine usually goes out with two (OIC and driver). So if we use two engine companies to get everything needed into place, we still usually only have 2 men to do so.

    I'll make you all a deal, when we can get adequate staffing I will personally spearhead a campaign to institute 2 1/2 inch hose for high rise fires.

    Stay Safe
    Chris Polimeni
    Prince George's County FD
    Back at the Big 29er

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    Quote Originally Posted by cap6888 View Post
    FFFred-Not sure if the safety nazi comment was directed at me, not sure how my comments can be taken that way. But I digress, our SOPs call for the first engine to stretch the first line. More often than not, our first engine has two, the OIC and driver. This means the OIC has to bring everything up by himself. Again, the 2nd due engine is supposed to assist with getting the first line in service or getting a back up line in service. And also again, our 2nd engine usually goes out with two (OIC and driver). So if we use two engine companies to get everything needed into place, we still usually only have 2 men to do so.
    I was speaking in generalities everytime this topic comes up.

    You are unnecessarily risking your lives for people who don't care to send you into battle with the neccessary troops and gear. Personally your situation with having responses to highrises but with 2 man companies would have me first consulting with the union then begining a campaign to notify them you will not begin rescue operations until having the proper force assembled, in place with the proper tools. I would send letters registered mail that make it clear the department has been notified of sending members into unsafe circumstances with substandard staffing and improper equipment. Also a certified letter stating such to your state OSHA people would also I imagine get a response.

    Circumstances limit us in our ability to do our jobs...just like a truck waiting for an engine to bring a hoseline when the fire is far to gone to search past safely...sometimes the circumstances control us...not us controling the circumstances.

    Everyone claims they are for safety and reduction of unnecessary risk when probably 90% of US departments are flying by the seat of their pants.

    These people you work for clearly didn't take out the right ammount of insurance for the area you protect...there is no reason your family should bear the brunt of that risk and burden.

    FTM-PTB

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    FFFred- very nice reply, thank you. I agree with your sentiments about trying to fix what is broken, and not committing ourselves until we have adequate resources. However, I am one of many in our department who still maintains what I like to consider an aggressive attitude. When someone calls for help, we show up and do the best that we can with what we have. Although I am speaking in generalities, I should clarify somethings when it comes to staffing. I work in the southern part of our county "inside the beltway". Stations in the 3rd and 5th battalions are primarily only "staffed" by career personnel. Our combination department is supposedly operating under the guise of paid personnel to supplement the volunteers. Unfortunately, the lack of volunteers leaves us no one to supplement, and we staff the apparatus by ourselves. Our staffing dilema falls on deaf ears. The volunteer leadership claim to have "1100" volunteers in the county. That plus our 700 career staff gives a total of 1800 which looks good on paper. Reality is different. The north side and stations outside the beltway have much better volunteer recruitment and retention. To say our system is broke is a gross understatement. Unfortunately, I fear it will take a LODD to get OSHA and the rest of the alphabet groups in line to help get the problem fixed.

    And now back to our regular thread...........Still waiting on some replies in regards on how you all deploy two bundles which need to be connected. Thanks

    Stay Safe
    Chris Polimeni
    Prince George's County FD
    Back at the Big 29er

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