Thread: Okla. Troopers

  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewHampshireFF View Post
    C'mon, you know better than that. How long is he supposed to sit there while his patient is denied hospital care? And no siren is, under most circumstances, appropriate when dealing with a cardiac patient, and running lights only is not allowed under Oklahoma law.

    The Medic was the only care this woman was recieving. I would expect him to sit there and care for her as long as was necessary. By becoming involved, he actually prolonged this period of "denied hospital care". In fact, he prolonged it quite a bit.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewHampshireFF View Post
    Abandoment requires DISCOUNTINUING care, not interupting it for another valid purpose.

    Like exploring why the hell your ambulance isn't moving.

    Back to basic class for you.
    Not likely.

    Keyword: valid
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    The Medic was the only care this woman was recieving. I would expect him to sit there and care for her as long as was necessary. By becoming involved, he actually prolonged this period of "denied hospital care". In fact, he prolonged it quite a bit.
    Again, back to basic class. Abandonment has a specific definition. It requires discontinuing care.

    Anyone who has actually worked an ambulance has left the back to, for example, fetch something from an outside compartment.

    Trooper Martin's immaturity and inability to control his temper delayed patient care.

    I'm beginning to think people are right about you. You pull up this absurd argument so that you can say that the troppoer was wrong, but so was the medic.

    The medic bears some responsibility for what went down. Maybe 10%. The rest is all on the trooper.
    Last edited by NewHampshireFF; 06-12-2009 at 01:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewHampshireFF View Post
    Again, back to basic class. Abandonment has a specific definition. It requires discontinuing care.

    Anyone who has actually worked an ambulance has left the back to, for example, fetch something from an outside compartment.

    Trooper Martin's immaturity and inability to control his temper delayed patient care.

    I'm beginning to think people are right about you. You pull up this absurd argument so that you can say that the troppoer was wrong, but so was the medic.

    The medic bears some responsibility for what went down. Maybe 10%. The rest is all on the trooper.
    In case you are implying that I have never worked EMS, I have. Both volunteer and urban 911 (Jersey City and New Brunswick).

    Are you trying to make the case that the care that the medic was providing was not important? In my view, that treatment was the only treatment she was recieving.

    Again, let me try one more time to dumb down my statements so even you can understand it.

    The police man was bad.

    There is no excuse for the way the police man acted towards the ambulance man.

    The ambulance man was bad, too.

    The poor nice lady in the ambulance bed was sick and needed help.

    The police man and the ambulance man were too busy measuring their pee pee's to care about the nice lady.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Two questions...

    1. Is the entire letter posted somewhere for review?

    2. Was there any mention of in internal investigation into the Medic's conduct?
    1. Not that I have found. Pieces of a letter are only part of the situation
    of course. No way to be truly objective without the complete read.

    2. Not that I have found. Perhaps his employer has done so, but it has not been mentioned.

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    Anyone who has actually worked an ambulance has left the back to, for example, fetch something from an outside compartment.
    Spent almost 20 years working on one. And no, I never left a patient alone to get something from an outside compartment.

    Maybe our rigs are better designed as items needed to care for a possible heat exhaustion are accessible from the interior.


    appropriate when dealing with a cardiac patient
    Are we talking about the same call here?



    "The word that comes to mind is absolute torture for a mother to be strapped to a gurney with an IV, an EKG and oxygen cannot move and she is hearing her family members scream outside that had to be torture. She did not deserve that," said Maurice White.
    and yet he decides it's in this woman's best interest to leave here alone in the back of the ambulance? Still having a hard time understanding that thought process.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I found a bit more on the letter from the DA - it clearly states that he does not condone the actions of the medic also.....
    http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/...rpt-710387.jpg

    A link to the complete letter can be found dave statters web page.
    Last edited by LVFD301; 06-12-2009 at 05:12 PM.

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    and yet he decides it's in this woman's best interest to leave here alone in the back of the ambulance? Still having a hard time understanding that thought process.
    To engage in an altercation, no less.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    I found a bit more on the letter from the DA - it clearly states that he does not condone the actions of the medic also.....
    http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/...rpt-710387.jpg

    A link to the complete letter can be found dave statters web page.
    Funny how the press leaves out that sentence, huh?

    I also find it veryinteresting that the DA is calling for the release of the dashcam video as well.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    The dashcam footage has finally been released: OHP Releases Trooper's Dash Cam Footage.

    This certainly appears to be an over-reaction by the trooper. He was behind the ambulance for a matter of seconds before the EMS unit yielded to him. The trooper approached the ambulance with a great deal of speed, giving the ambulance's operator only a few seconds to react, but the trooper didn't think that his reaction time was quick enough.

    I'm curious to see how this will play out, especially in light of OHP's recent admission that the trooper has been on leave for 2 weeks.
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    OK. Watching the footage, the trooper is told about the patient in the bus at 2:40, and he keeps on yelling, denies how fast he ran up on them. I couldn't tell for sure, but the first "assault" looked like Mr. White placed his hand on the troopers shoulder. I know your not to touch a trooper, but this looked pretty innocent to me. I can't believe the trooper actually told these guys "You're not running from me" when they were trying to leave. (4:50) Trooper Martin told the driver he was going to go to jail also. At 5:49, he opened the back of the bus to tell the patient they would get her to the hospital quickly. When the scuffle started on the side of the bus, it sounds like a woman is screaming?

    Discrepencies I see: When the trooper caught up to the bus, the vehicle in front of it was pulling over. The bus moved over to avoid the car. It took a grand total of 7 seconds for the bus to pull over. The trooper had to motion the bus to pull over while at his call. He cleared his call within seconds of arriving. Mr White "may" have thought there was someone in need of care with the trooper, but he got in the troopers business quickly, and would not give up.

    The trooper was not "placed on leave" on June 1. He voluntarily went on leave.

    I have had a high regard for the troopers in this state. I no longer respect this one. Put if he happens to pull me over any time I'm working down there, I will still respect his uniform. Nice big black eye for Oklahoma.

    MAtt
    Last edited by GhostRider73; 06-13-2009 at 09:43 AM.

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    Dash cam video is interesting.

    1. The bus did not fail to yield.

    2. It is very interesting that the bus was already pulled over on the shoulder before the Trooper even got there.

    3. The Medic bounced out of the back of the bus looking for a fight almost before the bus came to a stop.

    4. The Trooper was highly offensive in his language to other public safety personnel. He bounced out of his car looking for a fight.

    5. The Medic committed a mortal sin and pushed, or at least placed in hands on the shoulder of the Trooper. I don't care if you are taking my coffee order. If you place your hands on me, you are getting locked up. You do not EVER touch a law enforcement officer in the performance of his duties.

    6. The Medic escalated this incident.

    7. Most of what happens next is blocked out by the pts. family. But the Medic is clearly resisting arrest.

    8. The Trooper is 100% wrong for initiating contact with the driver in the lane of traffic.

    9. The Trooper is 100% wrong in his almost unbelievable disregard for the safety of the patient.

    10. The Trooper clearly states that the Medic is under arrest and why he is being arrested. He then commits the mortal sin of letting him go.

    I don't think you will hear much more about it in the press. The DA was very explicit that charges would not be filed against either party. A civil suit by the family will not be succesful unless they can prove damages. I suspect that they will be settled with quickly and quietly for emotional stress. A civil suit by the Medics will be unsuccesful because both the Trooper and the Medic are *********s and played the part to a T. I doubt the Trooper will be fired. At worst, (if the military story is true) he will get a psych disability. However, in all likelihood, he will serve a suspension and not be allowed to return to work until he has a fitness for duty exam.

    Both the OHP and the Creek NAtion EMS should be highly embarrased by the actions of their personnel.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostRider73 View Post
    The trooper was not "placed on leave" on June 1. He voluntarily went on leave.
    We'll never know, but I bet his "voluntary" leave was not by his choice.
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    The dash cam is a lot more damning to the Trooper than it is to the Medics. No surprise the OHP tried to block the release of it.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostRider73 View Post
    The trooper was not "placed on leave" on June 1. He voluntarily went on leave.
    Not sure if this was in response to my post, but this is what I posted:

    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187
    ...especially in light of OHP's recent admission that the trooper has been on leave for 2 weeks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    We'll never know, but I bet his "voluntary" leave was not by his choice.
    Would not be the first person that has heard "I am not saying you are suspended, but If I were you I would take some leave until this thing settles down...."
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Finally an objective view of what happened. The trooper came out of his car out of control and looking for a fight. He was totally wrong.

    The medic comes out of the ambulance once the trooper pulls him over. Along with the driver. Making the assumption that it is a 2 person crew, then the medic is absolutely in the wrong. If it is a 3 person crew (and there was a medically trained person in the ambulance monitoring the patient) then he was 100% right in doing so. Justification: if another agency or civilian has a problem with your engine driver or one of the FFs, isn't the officer typically the one who gets spoken to? The paramedic says he was the Crew Chief, so he would be the equivalent to the engine crew officer. But if its a 2 person crew, then the medic is wrong

    Listening to the tone of all parties in involved, it would appear the paramedic was calm, and trying to tell the trooper to deal with the situation after the patient has been dropped off. He wasn't looking for a fight, he was just trying to do his job and get the person to the hospital and deal with it later. Then the trooper escalates the situation, by continuing to delay the transport. Again the Trooper is wrong.

    I can see why the OHP didn't want to release the dash cam, it pretty much shows the medics in a good light and the trooper as an out of control jerkoff.

    BTW, I agree that the medic should never put his hands on the trooper. However, it becomes a double standard when the trooper can do whatever he wants to the medic, interfering with his duties to provide patient care which I believe is a felony in Ok, and the medic is supposed to just sit there and accept whatever is dealt out (as George so eloquently said, the Trooper initiated contact with the driver). I don't doubt what the paramedic is doing is resisting arrest (not a good thing to do, esp with an out of control trooper, bad medic), but the arrest should have never happened (bad trooper)
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    After reading the statements of the troopers http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griff...perscuffle.pdf and the medical personnel http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griff...entreports.pdf I understand why the medic was so quick to jump out of the ambulance. Since the trooper had a civilian in the car with him, the medic (incorrectly) assumed that the civilian needed immediate medical attention (not that unreasonable of an assumption, considering how quickly the trooper pulled the car over and got out of the car). So the medic might not be wrong for exiting the ambulance to help the trooper, but I would have had the driver do it instead.

    i suggest those who view the tape also read the incident reports, they help explain what everyone was thinking.

    Oh, and a side note, I didn't know you could be pulled over for flipping off a cop. it happens all the time where I work, and oddly enough, the cops still don't arrest people for doing it.

    Also here is an uninvolved witness's statement: http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griff...nessletter.pdf
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    My opinion (which doesn't mean much to anyone other than myself):
    • The trooper was looking for a fight.
    • The medic should not have left the patient (but from his statement you can see why he did.
    • The driver didn't pull over immediately, but not overly slow, but with the car in front of him I understand why).

    This all could have been avoided if the trooper had chilled out, as I don't think the ambulance was derelict in pulling over in a timely manner. I've been behind cars with lights and sirens for far longer than the trooper was behind the ambulance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanWert View Post
    My opinion (which doesn't mean much to anyone other than myself):
    • The trooper was looking for a fight.
    • The medic should not have left the patient (but from his statement you can see why he did.
    • The driver didn't pull over immediately, but not overly slow, but with the car in front of him I understand why).

    This all could have been avoided if the trooper had chilled out, as I don't think the ambulance was derelict in pulling over in a timely manner. I've been behind cars with lights and sirens for far longer than the trooper was behind the ambulance.
    This could have all been avoided if the Medic had shut up and filed an IA complaint against the Trooper later. They would have won...big time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Spent almost 20 years working on one. And no, I never left a patient alone to get something from an outside compartment.

    Maybe our rigs are better designed as items needed to care for a possible heat exhaustion are accessible from the interior.


    Are we talking about the same call here?



    and yet he decides it's in this woman's best interest to leave here alone in the back of the ambulance? Still having a hard time understanding that thought process.
    Below is the legal definition of Medical Abandonment as per USLEGAL.COM.
    It does not seem that Medic White abandoned his patient as per this definition. They were transporting her non emergency without lights and siren, I understand she was having possible heat induced problems, she was on IV and EKG. It seems the medic exited the ambulance in hope that this could be straightened out quickly and the ambulance trip resumed. Also, the situation with a state trooper or any other police officer having his wife in on an active duty assignment just blows my mind. That is something that simply would not be allowed under any circumstance here, but I guess its OK under their statutes.

    Medical Abandonment Law & Legal Definition

    Medical abandonment results when the caregiver-patient relationship is terminated without making reasonable arrangements with an appropriate person so that care by others can be continued. An example of a legal definition states as follows:

    "Abandoning or neglecting a patient or client under and in need of immediate professional care, without making reasonable arrangements for the continuation of such care, or abandoning a professional employment by a group practice, hospital, clinic or other health care facility, without reasonable notice and under circumstances which seriously impair the delivery of professional care to patients or clients."

    Some of the factors considered include:

    •Did the caregiver accept the patient assignment, creating a caregiver-patient relationship?
    •Did the caregiver provide reasonable notice before terminating the caregiver-patient relationship?
    •Could reasonable arrangements have been made for continuation of care by others when proper notification was given?
    In most cases, the following situations are not examples of abandonment:

    •Refusing to accept responsibility for a patient assignment(s) when the caregiver has given reasonable notice to the proper agent that the nurse lacks competence to carry out the assignment.
    •Refusing the assignment of a double

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    This could have all been avoided if the Medic had shut up and filed an IA complaint against the Trooper later. They would have won...big time.
    No....this could have all been avoided if the trooper didnt behave like an egotistical, d*** head in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite View Post
    The medic comes out of the ambulance once the trooper pulls him over. Along with the driver. Making the assumption that it is a 2 person crew, then the medic is absolutely in the wrong. If it is a 3 person crew (and there was a medically trained person in the ambulance monitoring the patient) then he was 100% right in doing so. Justification: if another agency or civilian has a problem with your engine driver or one of the FFs, isn't the officer typically the one who gets spoken to? The paramedic says he was the Crew Chief, so he would be the equivalent to the engine crew officer. But if its a 2 person crew, then the medic is wrong
    Why was the medic legally incorrect for coming out of the back of the
    ambulance?

    We need to stop going by the urban legends that our instructors teach as being absolute law for abandonement. Go by the legal defination.

    This is as bad as the fire dispatch centers that claim they can't give out the family name at an address to responding fire/first responder units because of HIPAA. It simply is legend that grows, when legal defination is completely different.

    Was he smart to exit the back? Probably not - but I suspect in the same situation I would have done the same thing.
    Last edited by LVFD301; 06-14-2009 at 01:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite View Post
    Finally an objective view of what happened. The trooper came out of his car out of control and looking for a fight. He was totally wrong.

    The medic comes out of the ambulance once the trooper pulls him over. Along with the driver. Making the assumption that it is a 2 person crew, then the medic is absolutely in the wrong. If it is a 3 person crew (and there was a medically trained person in the ambulance monitoring the patient) then he was 100% right in doing so. Justification: if another agency or civilian has a problem with your engine driver or one of the FFs, isn't the officer typically the one who gets spoken to? The paramedic says he was the Crew Chief, so he would be the equivalent to the engine crew officer. But if its a 2 person crew, then the medic is wrong

    Listening to the tone of all parties in involved, it would appear the paramedic was calm, and trying to tell the trooper to deal with the situation after the patient has been dropped off. He wasn't looking for a fight, he was just trying to do his job and get the person to the hospital and deal with it later. Then the trooper escalates the situation, by continuing to delay the transport. Again the Trooper is wrong.

    I can see why the OHP didn't want to release the dash cam, it pretty much shows the medics in a good light and the trooper as an out of control jerkoff.

    BTW, I agree that the medic should never put his hands on the trooper. However, it becomes a double standard when the trooper can do whatever he wants to the medic, interfering with his duties to provide patient care which I believe is a felony in Ok, and the medic is supposed to just sit there and accept whatever is dealt out (as George so eloquently said, the Trooper initiated contact with the driver). I don't doubt what the paramedic is doing is resisting arrest (not a good thing to do, esp with an out of control trooper, bad medic), but the arrest should have never happened (bad trooper)
    I'm noy sure here drParasite if this would be termed abandonment considering the medical ramifications. This does not seem to be an emergency run with a potentially critical patient. From what I've read, she was suffering from heat stress or exhaustion, transfer was done with out lights and sirens so no immediate emergency. I've been onboard an ambulance in a couple of situations similar, one being a minor vehicle accident, the other being a tire blowout. On one we requested immediate backup to transport patient,
    ( Breathing problems), the other, the patient was well known to us, alcohol abuse and was stable. I assisted driver in clearing the accident scene and I was outside ambulance in total about 4 min. I stepped back in to check on patient twice in that time.
    Bottom line is the trooper was out of control, maybe the medic could have handled it more diplomatically, but the trooper was the 100% instigator here, IMHO.

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    The trooper at the center of a controversial piece of video will face the media Monday in Oklahoma City. Oklahoma Highway Patrol Trooper Daniel Martin will hold a news conference with his attorney.


    Box:
    That was not in response to you. The OHP is playing semantics. When they were originally asked if he was placed on leave, they said no, he voluntarily took leave. Now they say he was placed on leave.

    Matt

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