Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 12 of 20 FirstFirst ... 29101112131415 ... LastLast
Results 221 to 240 of 399

Thread: Okla. Troopers

  1. #221
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Canuck Expat May be anywhere
    Posts
    2,906

    Default Justification anyone?

    I can't wait until our self proclaimed LE expert chimes in with, " Well the trooper was a little bit wrong but that old lady was definitely the problem here!
    A traffic stop for speeding in Travis County, Texas, led to the Tasering of a 72-year-old great-grandmother by a deputy. Feisty Kathryn Winkfein apparently so frightened the law-enforcement officer when she "used some profanity" and "got violent" that he felt it necessary to subdue her with a potentially dangerous jolt of electricity.

    Winkfein was reportedly doing 60 in a construction zone where the posted speed limit was 45 when she was pulled over. She was ticketed but declined to sign the ticket, leading the police officer to place her under arrest lest civilization collapse for want of the surrender of a penny's worth of ink.

    At this point, the stories diverge. According to Precinct 3 Constable Richard McCain, Winkfein cursed and refused to cooperate. She says nothing of the sort occurred. "I wasn't argumentative, I was not combative. This is a lie," the woman told a news reporter for Fox 7.

    Either way, it's difficult to see how the issuance of a speeding ticket to an elderly woman devolved to the point where a grown, trained law-enforcement officer could be considered justified in subjecting the speeder to an electric jolt intended to disrupt her nervous system -- no matter what command of profanity she displayed.

    Given that the speeding ticket had already been issued, it's also difficult to understand what purpose was served by prolonging the encounter and demanding a signature. A similar incident in Utah in 2007 between a state trooper and a motorist also resulted in a Tasering after the driver declined to sign a speeding ticket. In that case, the officer escalated the matter to a violent conclusion even though Utah law doesn't actually require a signature. Texas law apparently follows the same reasoning, considering the signature merely a promise to appear in court, not a necessity for the validity of the ticket itself.

    Jared Massey, the Utah motorist, was ultimately awarded $40,000 as compensation for the abuse he suffered at the hands of Trooper Jon Gardner.

    On another note, it seems like maybe, just maybe the LE trooper in Utah was also wrong, contrary to the learned opinions of our same expert!


  2. #222
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    That is the crap I am talking about George. The Trooper was wrong BUT.....

    My opinion from reading your posts on this subject reminds me of a little child that got caught by his parents. "I know I did wrong, but its his fault for making me do it!"

    "Sure the trooper was an ***, but its the Medic's fault for making him act like an ***!"

    I agree with you on most everything that you post, but I also recognize that you have a chip on your shoulder here. So go ahead and bully your way through this topic, I know you will.
    I have no chip on my shoulder here. I have said from the beginning that the Trooper was wrong. He was wrong.

    There is no rule that says there only has to be one party who was wrong. The Medic was wrong, too. Virtually every single poster on this thread has written the same thing. Yet, you continue to single me out.

    Why?
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  3. #223
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by coldfront View Post
    I just lied to you all.I am going to post again on this topic.

    GW -It's always easy to see both sides of an issue we are not particularly concerned about.

    Thats my view on this topic,however reading your view on most topics always enriches my day.
    Translation: "Yes, I am a gutless coward".
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  4. #224
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    I can't wait until our self proclaimed LE expert chimes in with, " Well the trooper was a little bit wrong but that old lady was definitely the problem here!
    A traffic stop for speeding in Travis County, Texas, led to the Tasering of a 72-year-old great-grandmother by a deputy. Feisty Kathryn Winkfein apparently so frightened the law-enforcement officer when she "used some profanity" and "got violent" that he felt it necessary to subdue her with a potentially dangerous jolt of electricity.

    Winkfein was reportedly doing 60 in a construction zone where the posted speed limit was 45 when she was pulled over. She was ticketed but declined to sign the ticket, leading the police officer to place her under arrest lest civilization collapse for want of the surrender of a penny's worth of ink.

    At this point, the stories diverge. According to Precinct 3 Constable Richard McCain, Winkfein cursed and refused to cooperate. She says nothing of the sort occurred. "I wasn't argumentative, I was not combative. This is a lie," the woman told a news reporter for Fox 7.

    Either way, it's difficult to see how the issuance of a speeding ticket to an elderly woman devolved to the point where a grown, trained law-enforcement officer could be considered justified in subjecting the speeder to an electric jolt intended to disrupt her nervous system -- no matter what command of profanity she displayed.

    Given that the speeding ticket had already been issued, it's also difficult to understand what purpose was served by prolonging the encounter and demanding a signature. A similar incident in Utah in 2007 between a state trooper and a motorist also resulted in a Tasering after the driver declined to sign a speeding ticket. In that case, the officer escalated the matter to a violent conclusion even though Utah law doesn't actually require a signature. Texas law apparently follows the same reasoning, considering the signature merely a promise to appear in court, not a necessity for the validity of the ticket itself.

    Jared Massey, the Utah motorist, was ultimately awarded $40,000 as compensation for the abuse he suffered at the hands of Trooper Jon Gardner.

    On another note, it seems like maybe, just maybe the LE trooper in Utah was also wrong, contrary to the learned opinions of our same expert!
    Did you see the video?

    I would've tased her. She was annoying.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  5. #225
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Did you see the video?

    I would've tased her. She was annoying.
    One would think that when an officer gives you an order while holding a tazer, and warning you that he's going to use it, that it would be a good idea to do what he's telling you to do. At 72, she should know that.

  6. #226
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,236

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    I can't wait until our self proclaimed LE expert chimes in with, " Well the trooper was a little bit wrong but that old lady was definitely the problem here!
    She wasn't?
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  7. #227
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    343

    Default

    The Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper involved in the confrontation on May 24 with the EMS crew from Creek Nation has been on administrative leave since June 1. OHP officials confirmed the information about Trooper Daniel Martin on Wednesday. An Oklahoma newspaper and a TV station have slightly conflicting reports about the nature of the leave with KOKI-TV reporting it is "voluntary".

    The confrontation was recorded on a cell phone camera by the son of the patient being transported in the ambulance. Dash-cam video was captured in a camera mounted in Trooper Martin's car. OHP continues to deny requests from news agencies for the video through the state's Open Records Act. An OHP spokesman did not tell Tulsa World reporter Manny Gamallo on Wednesday the reason for the denial. The prosecutor who looked into the matter and declined to press charges has urged OHP to release the video.

  8. #228
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Canuck Expat May be anywhere
    Posts
    2,906

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Did you see the video?

    I would've tased her. She was annoying.
    I have a couple of problems with that reasoning Ken. My understanding of issuance of Tazers to LE is that it is a weapon of second last resort, with the firearm being last resort. It should be used when the person presents a danger to him or herself, another person or the LE officer. Being belligerant doesn't really fill the bill in this case. A presumably relatively young, healthy fir trooper using a tazer on a 72 year old small woman is nothing but bullying and cowardice. Sorry, but dealing with beligerant or verbally confrontational people is unfortunately just a part of LE. People like this guy, the clown in California, the guy in Oklahoma, the hero in Utah, the 4 Mounties in Canada are just adding fuel to the growing resentment against LE. Probably 99% of LE officers carry out their jobs in a professional and legal manner. These 1% are only going to drag the entire profession down. What if that woman had a pacemaker implanted. Would beligerance or annoying stand up as reasonable justification in a court of law?

  9. #229
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    I have a couple of problems with that reasoning Ken. My understanding of issuance of Tazers to LE is that it is a weapon of second last resort, with the firearm being last resort. It should be used when the person presents a danger to him or herself, another person or the LE officer. Being belligerant doesn't really fill the bill in this case. A presumably relatively young, healthy fir trooper using a tazer on a 72 year old small woman is nothing but bullying and cowardice. Sorry, but dealing with beligerant or verbally confrontational people is unfortunately just a part of LE. People like this guy, the clown in California, the guy in Oklahoma, the hero in Utah, the 4 Mounties in Canada are just adding fuel to the growing resentment against LE. Probably 99% of LE officers carry out their jobs in a professional and legal manner. These 1% are only going to drag the entire profession down. What if that woman had a pacemaker implanted. Would beligerance or annoying stand up as reasonable justification in a court of law?
    If he had physically put her on the ground, do you think it would have been any less bullying? I mean, honestly, a "relatively young, healthy, fit trooper" physically putting a little old lady on the ground and restraining her?

    By the way, the reasoning he gave for tasering her was because she was trying to get into traffic to get into her vehicle after he ordered her not to (attempting to flee). So, she was endangering herself and the trooper by doing so. And who's to say she wouldn't have backed her truck right into him?

    I don't know if he's justified or not, but LEO's put up with enough crap and stupid people that I don't blame him one bit. I don't care how old she was, she was given an order by a LEO and refused that order, then attempted to flee. Just because she's 72 doesn't mean a damn thing. Hell, an 88 year old man just shot up a museum; it's not like the elderly can't be criminals and a threat to others.

  10. #230
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    I have a couple of problems with that reasoning Ken. My understanding of issuance of Tazers to LE is that it is a weapon of second last resort, with the firearm being last resort. It should be used when the person presents a danger to him or herself, another person or the LE officer. Being belligerant doesn't really fill the bill in this case. A presumably relatively young, healthy fir trooper using a tazer on a 72 year old small woman is nothing but bullying and cowardice. Sorry, but dealing with beligerant or verbally confrontational people is unfortunately just a part of LE. People like this guy, the clown in California, the guy in Oklahoma, the hero in Utah, the 4 Mounties in Canada are just adding fuel to the growing resentment against LE. Probably 99% of LE officers carry out their jobs in a professional and legal manner. These 1% are only going to drag the entire profession down. What if that woman had a pacemaker implanted. Would beligerance or annoying stand up as reasonable justification in a court of law?
    Bryan, it was a joke.

    .
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  11. #231
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Canuck Expat May be anywhere
    Posts
    2,906

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Bryan, it was a joke.

    .
    Sorry Ken I misunderstood. The Tazer is becoming increasingly controversial up here. One city cop used his several times on homless people" just to let them know not to sleep on "his" streets" The RCMP have already admitted their errors in the death of the Polish immigrant in Vancouver. Conflict resolution needs to be better understood and taught to LE in a lot of areas.

  12. #232
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Canuck Expat May be anywhere
    Posts
    2,906

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    If he had physically put her on the ground, do you think it would have been any less bullying? I mean, honestly, a "relatively young, healthy, fit trooper" physically putting a little old lady on the ground and restraining her?

    By the way, the reasoning he gave for tasering her was because she was trying to get into traffic to get into her vehicle after he ordered her not to (attempting to flee). So, she was endangering herself and the trooper by doing so. And who's to say she wouldn't have backed her truck right into him?

    I don't know if he's justified or not, but LEO's put up with enough crap and stupid people that I don't blame him one bit. I don't care how old she was, she was given an order by a LEO and refused that order, then attempted to flee. Just because she's 72 doesn't mean a damn thing. Hell, an 88 year old man just shot up a museum; it's not like the elderly can't be criminals and a threat to others.
    Unfortunately Catch22, crap and stupid and/or beligerant people simply goes as part of the job in LE. I deplore the fact that this is happening, but it doesn't give carte blanche to use potentially deadly force in this situation IMO. Simply taking her by the shoulders and holding her back should have been sufficient. The guy in the museum was armed, no comparison whatsoever with this situation.

  13. #233
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Unfortunately Catch22, crap and stupid and/or beligerant people simply goes as part of the job in LE. I deplore the fact that this is happening, but it doesn't give carte blanche to use potentially deadly force in this situation IMO. Simply taking her by the shoulders and holding her back should have been sufficient. The guy in the museum was armed, no comparison whatsoever with this situation.
    So what is the true problem here? Is it that he used his taser on a subject that refused an order, broke away when he tried to restrain them, and then attempted to get into her vehicle and flee? Or is it because it was a 72 year old woman?

    If it's the prior, then I'd like to know what he was supposed to do. Maybe George or someone else with an LEO background can offer at what point it's appropriate to hit someone with a taser, as I don't know.

    If it's the latter, then I'd like to know what age we stop tazing. I have serious doubts that an officer is trained that "at age xx for males, and age xx for females, you cannot hit them with a taser." If this had been a 25 year old woman, would you be equally upset?

    I'm also wanting to know what you would have thought had he physically put her to the ground. If you've watched the video, you know that he attempted to restrain her by her arm and she broke away (she's a real feable, ain't she). I have a feeling that had he done anything to physically restrain her, he'd be in the hot seat.

    The question here should be was the tactic appropriate for the situation, not whether the tactic was appropriate for the age of the "victim". Of course it still remains had she followed his orders, she wouldn't have gotten hit with the taser.

  14. #234
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Maybe George or someone else with an LEO background can offer at what point it's appropriate to hit someone with a taser, as I don't know.
    Two things...

    1. I have never been trained on the Taser. I am not even sure I have ever seen one in person. I never comment on things I know nothing about.

    2. I refuse to participate in any conversation initiated by an anti-US maggot.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  15. #235
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Canuck Expat May be anywhere
    Posts
    2,906

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Two things...

    1. I have never been trained on the Taser. I am not even sure I have ever seen one in person. I never comment on things I know nothing about.

    2. I refuse to participate in any conversation initiated by an anti-US maggot.
    Lets see now, I mentioned 2 Canadian instances of Tazer misuse, one of which resulted in a mans death. I mentioned 4 instances of american police overzealousness. So that makes me an anti US maggot? The "C", tubby, in RCMP stands for CANADA. Your just PO'd because once again your infallibility is shown to be exactly what it has been for a long time. Self induced and delusional.

  16. #236
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Canuck Expat May be anywhere
    Posts
    2,906

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    So what is the true problem here? Is it that he used his taser on a subject that refused an order, broke away when he tried to restrain them, and then attempted to get into her vehicle and flee? Or is it because it was a 72 year old woman?

    If it's the prior, then I'd like to know what he was supposed to do. Maybe George or someone else with an LEO background can offer at what point it's appropriate to hit someone with a taser, as I don't know.

    If it's the latter, then I'd like to know what age we stop tazing. I have serious doubts that an officer is trained that "at age xx for males, and age xx for females, you cannot hit them with a taser." If this had been a 25 year old woman, would you be equally upset?

    I'm also wanting to know what you would have thought had he physically put her to the ground. If you've watched the video, you know that he attempted to restrain her by her arm and she broke away (she's a real feable, ain't she). I have a feeling that had he done anything to physically restrain her, he'd be in the hot seat.

    The question here should be was the tactic appropriate for the situation, not whether the tactic was appropriate for the age of the "victim". Of course it still remains had she followed his orders, she wouldn't have gotten hit with the taser.
    Well, from the news story, she couldn't have been trying to flee since after he wrote her the ticket, there was no need to get her to sign it under Texas law, same as the situation in Utah. Actually, I think the age in this situation has a lot of bearing since health issues may be far more prevalent at 72 than 25. Do you not think there would have been massive legal issues had she died? Also what legal reason did he give for using the TAZER. She was speeding, she stopped, he wrote a ticket, she got ornry, she dared him to Tazer her, he did. Legal basis here?

  17. #237
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,922

    Default

    Not sure if this was posted, too much static on the thread now, but Trooper Martin of the OHP (remember the thread?) is now on administrative leave.

  18. #238
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    Well, from the news story, she couldn't have been trying to flee since after he wrote her the ticket, there was no need to get her to sign it under Texas law, same as the situation in Utah. Actually, I think the age in this situation has a lot of bearing since health issues may be far more prevalent at 72 than 25. Do you not think there would have been massive legal issues had she died? Also what legal reason did he give for using the TAZER. She was speeding, she stopped, he wrote a ticket, she got ornry, she dared him to Tazer her, he did. Legal basis here?
    For whatever reason, he didn't want her leaving. She attempted to get by him, get in the truck and leave. Not once, but twice. The first time he threw her back and tried to restrain her by her arm and she got away from him. That's not something your typical 72 year old with a list of health problems does.

    Then, she tried to get in the truck again, and got thrown back again. That time, he drew his taser and warned her at least twice. Then, when she refused his order, he hit her with the taser.

    If you take the age out of it, I would bet it wouldn't have even made the news! Just like the EMS incident, on the side of the road is not where it's decided whether or not an order is a lawful order. If you think it's unlawful, you obey the order, get hauled to the pokie, get out and contact a lawyer to sue the agency and/or officer. On the side of the road is NOT the place, and trying to leave (in other words, "flee") against the officers direct order is NOT a good idea when he tells you he's going to use the taser.

    As for the health problems, how many instances have their been where a taser has had a negative impact on a health issue? They're scarce, or tasers wouldn't even be utilized. These days, 40 year olds have heart conditions. Are we going to set the limit of using a taser only those between ages 18 and 39? No, because the next option is either a baton or a gun, which can cause even more damage.

    I guarantee you had used ANY other means, the media and any number of other people would be in awe that this big ol' officer had the audacity to use physical force against a 72 year old woman when the focus should be on the fact that this 72 year old woman failed to follow the direct order of an officer, could be guilty of assaulting him (if you'll notice, she struck at him when he tried to restrain her arm), and recieved just what he warned her he was going to do.

  19. #239
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Canuck Expat May be anywhere
    Posts
    2,906

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    For whatever reason, he didn't want her leaving. She attempted to get by him, get in the truck and leave. Not once, but twice. The first time he threw her back and tried to restrain her by her arm and she got away from him. That's not something your typical 72 year old with a list of health problems does.

    Then, she tried to get in the truck again, and got thrown back again. That time, he drew his taser and warned her at least twice. Then, when she refused his order, he hit her with the taser.

    If you take the age out of it, I would bet it wouldn't have even made the news! Just like the EMS incident, on the side of the road is not where it's decided whether or not an order is a lawful order. If you think it's unlawful, you obey the order, get hauled to the pokie, get out and contact a lawyer to sue the agency and/or officer. On the side of the road is NOT the place, and trying to leave (in other words, "flee") against the officers direct order is NOT a good idea when he tells you he's going to use the taser.

    As for the health problems, how many instances have their been where a taser has had a negative impact on a health issue? They're scarce, or tasers wouldn't even be utilized. These days, 40 year olds have heart conditions. Are we going to set the limit of using a taser only those between ages 18 and 39? No, because the next option is either a baton or a gun, which can cause even more damage.

    I guarantee you had used ANY other means, the media and any number of other people would be in awe that this big ol' officer had the audacity to use physical force against a 72 year old woman when the focus should be on the fact that this 72 year old woman failed to follow the direct order of an officer, could be guilty of assaulting him (if you'll notice, she struck at him when he tried to restrain her arm), and recieved just what he warned her he was going to do.
    I watched the video several times and at no time did I ever hear the officer inform her she was under arrest. Why would it be necessary for her to "get over here" or listen to the rest of his ranting. She was definitely po'd but thats something that goes with the job. If he doesn't accept that, he has no business being a police officer. Want to bet that he's probably going to find himself in civil court, just imagine how that video will play to a jury. My point is, he could have handled it much more diplomatically and reasonably than he did.

  20. #240
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Okla. City newspaper article
    By chiefengineer11 in forum Public Information & Media Relations
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-08-2008, 01:27 PM
  2. State Troopers And Other Funnies
    By MalahatTwo7 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-10-2004, 01:39 PM
  3. Are they Storm Troopers?
    By Adze39 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 04-09-2004, 11:37 PM
  4. Open query for Okla State FPST students/grads...
    By MrFreeze in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-21-2003, 04:19 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts