Thread: Okla. Troopers

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    That unfortionatly is one of the big downsides, that this will reflect on the OHP as a whole.

    Personally I have only had one bad experience, with one single Trooper. The incident was handled between our chief and the HQ at the OHP. It had to do with our Engine establishing a block, and the Trooper was not happy about loosing another lane. The incident caused us to review our SOG's and review OHP SOP's. We trained together, we told OHP why we block the way we do, and the OPH told us why they want the roads open. No more problems since then. We and our Troopers know each other by name, ask about each others families, and have a very good relationship on scene.

    But a lot of people will take a look at YouTube and paint their own picture about the OHP. With the attention of CNN we have a chance of being officially know as the state with the "Troopers that go around chocking people".

    If there is one lesson to take away from this whole situation is that we have to keep up with technology. I know we have always been taught to keep an eye out for the news, because they will make you look bad if it equals ratings. But with the rise of YouTube we have to realize that if there is a cell-phone on scene, there is also a camera on scene. You can be perfect for 6 hours, but if you slip up for 10 seconds and someone catches you on their camera, then those 10 seconds will be on YouTube and the news.
    That is interesting becuase we invite the Troopers in for a beer now and then and that keeps things smooth as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Skippy? I prefer Sunshine.

    If you read the first message where I made my quote, well, here it is.

    "First of all, yes, Missouri DOES have a state law that says volunteers can exceed the speed limit. Section 307.175, RSMo Supp. 1971 clearly sets this forth, and Missouri State Attorney Generals opinion 152-72 further sets that out. "

    I believe the words "Missouri State Attorney Generals Opinion 152-172" is clearly mentioned. You must have overlooked that.

    Now, insofar as your looking for that word, CONCLUSION. Yes, what you quoted was the CONCLUSION of the answer to the question that was posed by Robert E. Watts, in his capacity as Fire Chief of Brentwood and President of the Greater St. Louis County Fire Chiefs Association consisting of 47 Fire Departments. The question was asked through John A. Grellner
    Representative, District 40.

    Now, lets look at the question that was asked.

    "What color emergency lights are to be used by publicly owned fire equipment and ambulances?"

    So, the Attorney General, in his CONCLUSION, answered the question asked. The question asked was not about volkswagen bugs. It was very specific, FIRE EQUIPMENT AND AMBULANCES. The answer to that very specific question was also very specific,

    Now, in reading the ENTIRE opinion, you can clearly see that he feels that I am right, and you are wrong.

    Lets look at the word conclusion,

    con⋅clu⋅sion  [kuhn-kloo-zhuhn] Show IPA
    –noun
    1. the end or close; final part.
    2. the last main division of a discourse, usually containing a summing up of the points and a statement of opinion or decisions reached.
    3. a result, issue, or outcome; settlement or arrangement: The restitution payment was one of the conclusions of the negotiations.
    4. final decision: The judge has reached his conclusion.
    5. a reasoned deduction or inference.
    6. Logic. a proposition concluded or inferred from the premises of an argument.
    7. Law.
    a. the effect of an act by which the person performing the act is bound not to do anything inconsistent therewith; an estoppel.
    b. the end of a pleading or conveyance.
    8. Grammar. apodosis.

    So, the opinion is not only the conclusion, but the sum of the conclusion. The final part. Just because it is the conclusion does not negate the facts and his opinions that make up the conclusion. He clearly states his opinion in this paragraph, which I repost for you.


    " It is our opinion that under the provisions of the above statutes any motor vehicle, operated by members of an organized fire department or ambulance association whether paid or volunteer, including fire trucks and ambulances, whether publicly owned or privately owned, may be operated on the streets or highways while displaying a red light or with permission from the chief of the fire department or ambulance association, may display a flashing blue light, when responding to an emergency call, and the operators of such vehicles may park irrespective of the provisions of Sections 304.014 to 304.026, disregard stop signals, speed limits, and regulations governing the parking or turning of such vehicles in specific directions, but must obey all other traffic laws and regulations, and the operators of all other vehicles on such street or highway shall yield the right-of-way when such vehicle approaches. "
    You have shown him the actual laws as well as the opinions that say you can speed, yet he continues to argue. Does that tell you something. Even with overwhelming evidence that he is clearly wrong he continues to argue.

    Some people don't know how to admit they were wrong. Could even be the senility

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Good try. But wide to the right.

    A CONCLUSION is the final word. In legal writing, a CONCLUSION is your decision or interpretation. It includes everything the writer wants included. I understand you don't like the conclusion, but that's too bad.

    I am done with this topic in order to get the thread back on track.
    The prosecuting attorney for the county is in agreement. The other troopers in the troop are in agreement. The commander of the troop is in agreement. Pretty much the rest of the state is in agreement. They all realize that volunteer firefighters are allowed with due safety to exceed the posted speed limit enroute to an emergency call, if the proper emergency equipment is activated.

    Except for a guy way over on the east coast that has no training in Missouri law, and this one sole trooper.

    I realize its hard for you to admit you are incorrect, and understand why you want the thread to end as it is obvious you are incorrect.

    Thats fine. You have a great day. Its absolutly gorgeous down here in Missouri today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I am done with this topic in order to get the thread back on track.
    A legend in his own mind...

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    Is this little disagreement in regards to exceeding the speed limit or yielding to an LEO?

    If it's exceeding the speed limit (and I don't think it is), even the 30-year old opinion and the statute that's been revised several times since the opinion read that when running lights and siren, and emergency vehicle may exceed the posted speed limit.

    If it's in regards to yielding to a LEO when both are running lights and siren (where I think the disagreement actually is), then it seems to be less black-and-white. If you take the opinion at face value ("but must obey all other traffic laws and regulations,") George could very well be right, if the LEO is responding lights and sirens, as per the statute both must be operating...

    RSMo 304.220 Section 5(3)
    The exemptions granted to an emergency vehicle pursuant to subdivision (2) of this subsection shall apply only when the driver of any such vehicle while in motion sounds audible signal by bell, siren, or exhaust whistle as may be reasonably necessary, and when the vehicle is equipped with at least one lighted lamp displaying a red light or blue light visible under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of five hundred feet to the front of such vehicle.
    The only reason I highlight the "and" is that I often see LEO's running lights and no siren (sometimes for several miles), particularly when performing a traffic stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    The prosecuting attorney for the county is in agreement. The other troopers in the troop are in agreement. The commander of the troop is in agreement. Pretty much the rest of the state is in agreement. They all realize that volunteer firefighters are allowed with due safety to exceed the posted speed limit enroute to an emergency call, if the proper emergency equipment is activated.

    Except for a guy way over on the east coast that has no training in Missouri law, and this one sole trooper.

    I realize its hard for you to admit you are incorrect, and understand why you want the thread to end as it is obvious you are incorrect.

    Thats fine. You have a great day. Its absolutly gorgeous down here in Missouri today.

    As I have stated time and time again, Norm from Cheers/ George Wendt is never wrong. To believe he is wrong is against all that is good in the world. If you think he is wrong, you support terrorist. You are also the cause of every LODD in the fire and law enforcement field. If to ever be proven wrong, George and rest of the world would simply implode on itself. It is your fault, sir, that you do not understand George's logic which has substituted reality and will always result in George being right.

    When backed into a corner, all he has is an ignore button and a "this thread is over" cop out.

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    The trooper stated both that the firefighter was not allowed to exceed the speed limit at all, and that he was going to start writing firefighters that did, AND that when meeting a trooper on the road the firefighter had to pull to the right, and the trooper did not.

    Picture a three lane road, two lanes northbound, one lane southbound. Firefighter headed south, two lanes headed north.

    Trooper headed north in the middle lane, and to be honest I am not sure if he was audible or not. Firefighter headed south in his lane.

    His biggest complaint was the speed, 74 in a 65 per the trooper - something that will not even get you written in a non emergency in most places.

    I personally think he was just having a bad day - and won't back down.

    That said, the trooper conducted himself, and always has to my knowledge in a very professional manner about it all, he is just incorrect.

    The solution is trickling down via supervisors to him at this point.

    The way the law reads, it does not grant a priority to the trooper or the firefighter insofar as who should yield - but I always tend to let them pass me if they want to overtake me on a call.
    Last edited by LVFD301; 07-25-2009 at 05:12 PM.

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    To all, I am not going to succumb to the hating going on. George's opinion is just that - and I suspect it comes from both ingnorance and arrogance, and those are not always bad things.

    Most all of us have a bit of arrogance. We would not be in the Fire Service without some of it. And every one of us have some ignorance of other situations.

    Many states around George do NOT allow volunteers to speed, or violate most any traffic laws with their courtesy lights. That would be what he is used to.

    Many states around me have laws that make the volunteers vehicle an actual emergency vehicle when their emergency equipment is operating and they are on a call. With that comes a lot of responsibility BTW, one that those of us in a position to regulate need to do so, making sure that the drivers we allow to us that equipment do so in a legal and safe manner.

    We have true rural fire departments. 200 square mile coverage areas, to cover 1000 residents. Sometimes lights and sirens do make a difference, sometimes they do nothing more than scare the deer from jumping in front of you. (sometimes they seem to attract deer) Very few departments in George's area have that kind of demographic.

    As I have noted, the trooper involved here, while incorrect, still conducted himself in a totally professional manner. I don't believe I have ever heard of different conduct in our region.

    Trooper Martin would not last long here. His co-workers would quickly get him out of here.

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    In response to the pms and the email, not me, not my department, not even my county. I got drug into it in a county north of me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    In response to the pms and the email, not me, not my department, not even my county. I got drug into it in a county north of me.
    It sounds like it's just one of those incidents that happens every few years somewhere in the state. They're remote, and usually quickly resolved. Most of them I know about are new, overzealous troopers trying to do their job by the book. Typically, a chat with their supervisor corrects the problem.

    However, that ****ing match in an unnamed county in the middle of the state between a larger district and some troopers stemmed a lot of the animosity between the Patrol and fire departments. We caught a little bit of it down here, but it was very short lived and only some attitude, nothing major. Once we had a chance to talk with the guy, it was no big deal and we work very well together (he's even requested us on non-injury accidents to help with traffic control).

    Once everyone realizes cooler heads prevail and we can all work together, things work nicely and everyone gets along. It's when one side or the other (I've seen fire and EMS do it, too) gets a chip on their shoulder is when problems start.

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    Looks like homeboy has some serious anger issues.

    An Oklahoma trooper previously suspended for fighting with an ambulance driver is on paid administrative leave after being accused of using excessive force.

    Trooper Daniel Martin is accused of beating Khristopher Douglas of Holdenville. Douglas says he was at a friend's home helping with renovations Saturday when troopers pulled up to handle an apparent traffic stop.

    Douglas says he was going inside when Martin demanded he come toward the street. Douglas says Martin grabbed his arm and began beating him when he questioned the order.

    Oklahoma Highway Patrol Capt. Chris West says Martin and another trooper are on paid leave during the investigation.

    Martin served a five-day suspension for the May incident in which he grabbed a paramedic in a choke hold around the neck.
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    Awesome!! This guy is a real COP.
    FF/Paramedic

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    Don't worry, I'm sure George has an excuse ready for his actions.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Actually, I'm sure George will remain fair and balanced, as he usually does.
    Do I always get along with him?
    Nope.
    But he is at least (for the most part) a fair and balanced guy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    Looks like homeboy has some serious anger issues.
    Looks like nothing right now. No video, just an article in the paper.

    More than ever time to wait and see what the investigation, and the
    video show up. (The Captain already said the video will be released)

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    Actually, I'm sure George will remain fair and balanced, as he usually does.
    Do I always get along with him?
    Nope.
    But he is at least (for the most part) a fair and balanced guy.
    nah, i bet he defends this guy and say the guy was resisting arrest and not following the troopers directions, and as a result, everything that happened was all legit and all the victims fault, because he didn't follow the trooper's directions.

    I got to say though, based on this article alone, I need to side with the trooper; that this sounds pretty fishy. the victim is at his friend's house already helping with renovations, and suddenly the trooper performs a traffic stop right in front of the driver's destination? and then beats him when he refuses to come to the street? anger issues or not, I have to think there is more to this story. or at least a youtube video or dashcam to be the unbiased witness.

    let the investigation show what actually happened before we crucify him for this incident
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    You're correct. Fair and balanced.

    1. There is NEVER EVER EVER an excuse for the excessive use of force. The Use of Force continuum that officers are trained in, clearly exhibits that sufficient force may be used to overcome the resistance. Anything that exceeds that is wrong.

    2. I guarantee that when the video is released, you are going to find that this guy was an *****h@l* and was interfering with the traffic stop. However, being an *****h@l* is not a reason to use excessive force. If it were, some of you would be walking around with PCS.

    3. I would pretty much bet that Martin's law enforcement career is over.

    4. I would pretty much bet that this incident will result in a massive investigation of the OSP and their internal affais procedures. Misconduct by a police officer is a crime. Police are supposed to take reports of crimes 24/7/365. The fact that it took a television reporter to prompt a call to the vic to get his report is a sure sign that things are wrong.

    5. One reason that officers must pass a psych is to show that they have the mental stability to exhibit a thick skin when they are being harassed by a citizen. An officer with anger issues, such as has been exhibited by Trooper Martin, is a potentially deadly combination.
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    The "Gentleman" who accused Trooper Martin of excessive force has been charged with obstruction. The troopers are still under investigation, but I was wondering if someone would try to get away with something by accusing this trooper of misdeeds.

    Matt

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    http://www.fox23.com/media/lib/13/6/...tin_Report.pdf

    http://www.fox23.com/media/lib/13/5/...able_Cause.pdf

    FOX23 learns more about what happened last Saturday night when a man says he was attacked by an Oklahoma Highway Trooper. It's the same trooper who was suspended for attacking a paramedic on a call in Okfuskee County in May, 2009.

    Friday, OHP released Troopers Daniel Martin and Tommy Allen’s reports from the incident.

    In an Open Records Request FOX23’s Abbie Alford filed with OHP, she explains what the troopers say happened

    In the reports, Troopers Martin and Allen paint a different picture of what happened that night.

    Khristopher Douglas says the troopers used excessive force on him during a traffic stop on October 3rd in Holdenville, Oklahoma.

    Douglas said he wasn’t the one pulled over but just passing by when Troopers Allen and Martin tried to arrest him and Martin beat him with a baton.

    However, in the newly released troopers report only obtained by FOX23 and The Associated Press, Trooper Martin reported as Douglas tried to walk up the driveway he “attempted to proceed through the scene.”

    Martin said he asked Douglas to stand aside telling Douglas, “Please go over there until we’re done here.” Martin refused yelling, “I’m going right there inside the damn house!”

    The report also states Trooper Tommy Allen then got involved taking ahold of Douglas’ wrist.

    Allen reports, “Douglas looked down at his right wrist and the[n] stepped back as if he was squaring off to fight.”

    Martin says Douglas started to sweat, clenching his teeth and appeared to be in “fight or flight mode”.

    Martin reported Douglas’ behavior was, “consistent with someone possibly under the influence of a controlled drug.”

    Both reports state Martin pulled out his baton and as the troopers tried to restrain Douglas, Allen says he put him in neck restraint.

    Trooper Martin states in his report, “due to his large size, possible drug intoxication and the possibility that he would get out of Trooper Allen’s hold, Trooper Martin delivered one baton strike to Douglas’ left thigh in order for him to comply with this commands and not resist.”

    Martin also states while in the patrol car Douglas admitted he made a mistake, “he [Douglas] would not normally interfere with a traffic stop and realized that he made a mistake and should have listened to commands to step back.”

    Douglas is charged with obstructing/interfere with police officer during the performance of duties.”

    The man who was pulled over was let go and not ticketed. OHP is still investigating and both troopers are on paid administrative leave.

    Court records show Khristopher Douglas is serving a five-year suspended sentence on a meth charge from Oklahoma County. Department of Corrections reports on its website that Douglas’ is scheduled to be complete his sentence in November of this year.

    Douglas is being represented by the same attorney, Richard O’Carroll, who is also representing the paramedic, Maurice White for the scuffle in Okfuskee County in May.

    Martin served a five-day suspension without pay for that incident. White has a filed a lawsuit against Martin.

    O’Carroll says, “I’m having his [Martin] badge.”


    There was supposed to be a link to Trooper Allens report, but it linked back to Trooper Martins report.

    Matt
    Last edited by GhostRider73; 10-10-2009 at 11:18 PM.

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    one shot to the leg. he wandered into a police traffic stop. he wouldn't leave when asked to by the troopers.

    I'm as fair and balanced as the next guy, but I'm siding with the troopers on this one. Assuming everything in the report is 100% true, this guy wandered into a situation that he didn't belong in, and was the cause of this entire situation.

    Unless the tapes show differently, hopefully the trooper will be cleared of any wrongdoing
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    Dan, I agree.
    If the stories are confirmed, he acted well within his duties, and put the skell in his place.

    Kudos for a job well done, and apologies for doubting.
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    Both troopers have been cleared of all charges in this matter, and were returned to duty today.

    Matt

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    I saw that on Facebook this morning. Can't remember which site, FH, FFN, Statter or what, but I did wonder when I read about it if it will make a few people go hmmmmmm and perhaps change their initial evaluation of the original incident.
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