Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 19 of 20 FirstFirst ... 91617181920 LastLast
Results 361 to 380 of 399

Thread: Okla. Troopers

  1. #361
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Henryetta, Ok
    Posts
    70

    Default

    I said if the trooper lost his job, not that he had lost it.

    Matt


  2. #362
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,923

    Default

    My error.

    CNN ran more on it tonite, with some "civil rights" attorney, who felt that the case is viable, and that the medic will probably win. He cited as major issues the choke hold and the fact the trooper went back a second time to confront the medic.

    Just what I saw.

    The trooper in Okmulgee said most of the coworkers of mr martin are none to happy with him, or the publicity.

  3. #363
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,439

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    The trooper in Okmulgee said most of the coworkers of mr martin are none to happy with him, or the publicity.
    That unfortionatly is one of the big downsides, that this will reflect on the OHP as a whole.

    Personally I have only had one bad experience, with one single Trooper. The incident was handled between our chief and the HQ at the OHP. It had to do with our Engine establishing a block, and the Trooper was not happy about loosing another lane. The incident caused us to review our SOG's and review OHP SOP's. We trained together, we told OHP why we block the way we do, and the OPH told us why they want the roads open. No more problems since then. We and our Troopers know each other by name, ask about each others families, and have a very good relationship on scene.

    But a lot of people will take a look at YouTube and paint their own picture about the OHP. With the attention of CNN we have a chance of being officially know as the state with the "Troopers that go around chocking people".

    If there is one lesson to take away from this whole situation is that we have to keep up with technology. I know we have always been taught to keep an eye out for the news, because they will make you look bad if it equals ratings. But with the rise of YouTube we have to realize that if there is a cell-phone on scene, there is also a camera on scene. You can be perfect for 6 hours, but if you slip up for 10 seconds and someone catches you on their camera, then those 10 seconds will be on YouTube and the news.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

  4. #364
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    My error.

    CNN ran more on it tonite, with some "civil rights" attorney, who felt that the case is viable, and that the medic will probably win. He cited as major issues the choke hold and the fact the trooper went back a second time to confront the medic.

    Just what I saw.

    The trooper in Okmulgee said most of the coworkers of mr martin are none to happy with him, or the publicity.
    If that is the approach they are going to take, then I would guess that the fact that the medic got out of the ambulance to confront the trooper in the first place will probably cancel it out.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  5. #365
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,923

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    That unfortionatly is one of the big downsides, that this will reflect on the OHP as a whole.

    Personally I have only had one bad experience, with one single Trooper. The incident was handled between our chief and the HQ at the OHP. It had to do with our Engine establishing a block, and the Trooper was not happy about loosing another lane. The incident caused us to review our SOG's and review OHP SOP's. We trained together, we told OHP why we block the way we do, and the OPH told us why they want the roads open. No more problems since then. We and our Troopers know each other by name, ask about each others families, and have a very good relationship on scene.

    But a lot of people will take a look at YouTube and paint their own picture about the OHP. With the attention of CNN we have a chance of being officially know as the state with the "Troopers that go around chocking people".

    If there is one lesson to take away from this whole situation is that we have to keep up with technology. I know we have always been taught to keep an eye out for the news, because they will make you look bad if it equals ratings. But with the rise of YouTube we have to realize that if there is a cell-phone on scene, there is also a camera on scene. You can be perfect for 6 hours, but if you slip up for 10 seconds and someone catches you on their camera, then those 10 seconds will be on YouTube and the news.
    That is the feeling I have heard - the troopers feel painted with the same brush as Mr Martin.

    Personally, I have never had an issue with any trooper in OK. We have a couple that do a little off-duty work for us at a facility there north of Okmulgee, along with a couple of Lighthorse. (If you know the area, you understand.) They do great work. (you should see the Lighthorse, those guys are animals!)

    Anyone in public service nowadays needs to remember that cameras are EVERYWHERE.

  6. #366
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,923

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    If that is the approach they are going to take, then I would guess that the fact that the medic got out of the ambulance to confront the trooper in the first place will probably cancel it out.
    I don't know. Even people breaking the law have civil rights protections.

    I know if it gets to a jury, emotions are going to rule.

  7. #367
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    That unfortionatly is one of the big downsides, that this will reflect on the OHP as a whole.

    Personally I have only had one bad experience, with one single Trooper. The incident was handled between our chief and the HQ at the OHP. It had to do with our Engine establishing a block, and the Trooper was not happy about loosing another lane. The incident caused us to review our SOG's and review OHP SOP's. We trained together, we told OHP why we block the way we do, and the OPH told us why they want the roads open. No more problems since then. We and our Troopers know each other by name, ask about each others families, and have a very good relationship on scene.

    But a lot of people will take a look at YouTube and paint their own picture about the OHP. With the attention of CNN we have a chance of being officially know as the state with the "Troopers that go around chocking people".

    If there is one lesson to take away from this whole situation is that we have to keep up with technology. I know we have always been taught to keep an eye out for the news, because they will make you look bad if it equals ratings. But with the rise of YouTube we have to realize that if there is a cell-phone on scene, there is also a camera on scene. You can be perfect for 6 hours, but if you slip up for 10 seconds and someone catches you on their camera, then those 10 seconds will be on YouTube and the news.
    We had a similar incident when I-44 was just down near the state line and our guys were there for mutual aid on a MCI, multi-vehicle accident. Road was shut down for 9 hours before it was said and done, but the initial trooper wanted it opened. He ended up overruled as troopers with a few more stripes arrived. He actually ended up working with fire/EMS once it was explained why the road was shut down and it wasn't going to open anytime soon anyway, as there weren't enough two trucks there to even start pulling cars and the coroner hadn't arrived to deal with the DOA's.

    What is sad is the way our media has played this. This could have went the other way, where the headlines talked about a rogue, out of control paramedic that had to be restrained by a chokehold. But, in our society, "bad" cops make the news and grab attention and the media is more than happy to oblige.

  8. #368
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,923

    Default

    Then I have a trooper over here that says volunteers cannot exceed the speed limit by 1 mile an hour, and if they are meeting while both running hot on a three lane road, he enroute to pull over a speeder, the firefighter enroute to a structure fire, the firefighter MUST pull to the right in deference to the trooper.

    Yeah, the firefighter was on the single lane side of the three lane.....

  9. #369
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Then I have a trooper over here that says volunteers cannot exceed the speed limit by 1 mile an hour, and if they are meeting while both running hot on a three lane road, he enroute to pull over a speeder, the firefighter enroute to a structure fire, the firefighter MUST pull to the right in deference to the trooper.

    Yeah, the firefighter was on the single lane side of the three lane.....
    Does your state have a state law that says volunteers CAN exceed the speed limit? That says a volunteer FF does not have to yield to a PO?

    I'm confused.

    Oh. You mean you think that volunteers are special, right?
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  10. #370
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,923

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Does your state have a state law that says volunteers CAN exceed the speed limit? That says a volunteer FF does not have to yield to a PO?

    I'm confused.

    Oh. You mean you think that volunteers are special, right?
    You know, its pretty amazing how you can read things into something that are not there. I understand your confusion, it is obvious. I will try to help you clear up that confusion.

    First of all, yes, Missouri DOES have a state law that says volunteers can exceed the speed limit. Section 307.175, RSMo Supp. 1971 clearly sets this forth, and Missouri State Attorney Generals opinion 152-72 further sets that out.

    Laws that apply to both operators, the Trooper and the Firefighter provide that each should yield to each other - no blanket priority for either one, which begs the question should the Trooper not have yielded for the Firefighter?

    And hell yes I think Volunteers are special. My firefighters are very special - to do what they do, to put up with what they have to put up with, 24/7, for nothing tangible more than a little tuition reimbursement and a biscuit and gravy breakfast once a year, I think that they, and the other volunteers out there are damned special.

    Do I think they have "special" rights other than the RESPONSIBILITY set out for them under laws like 307.175? Nope.

  11. #371
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    You know, its pretty amazing how you can read things into something that are not there. I understand your confusion, it is obvious. I will try to help you clear up that confusion.

    First of all, yes, Missouri DOES have a state law that says volunteers can exceed the speed limit. Section 307.175, RSMo Supp. 1971 clearly sets this forth, and Missouri State Attorney Generals opinion 152-72 further sets that out.

    Laws that apply to both operators, the Trooper and the Firefighter provide that each should yield to each other - no blanket priority for either one, which begs the question should the Trooper not have yielded for the Firefighter?

    And hell yes I think Volunteers are special. My firefighters are very special - to do what they do, to put up with what they have to put up with, 24/7, for nothing tangible more than a little tuition reimbursement and a biscuit and gravy breakfast once a year, I think that they, and the other volunteers out there are damned special.

    Do I think they have "special" rights other than the RESPONSIBILITY set out for them under laws like 307.175? Nope.
    You see, the dangerous thing about throwing these statutes around is, you actually have to read not only the statute, but any opnions or interpretations issued by the state or by the courts. Here is an interpretation offered by none other than your state attorney general. He doesn't exactly see it the way you do:

    It is the opinion of this office that fire trucks and ambulances, whether publicly owned or privately owned, operated by a member of an organized fire department or ambulance association, may display lighted red lights, or, with a permit from the chief of the organized fire department or ambulance association, may display a flashing blue light when responding to an emergency call, and the operators of such vehicles may park irrespective of the provisions of Sections 304.014 to 304.026, RSMo 1969, with caution, disregard stop signals, speed limits, and regulations requiring parking and turning of vehicles in specified directions, but comply with all other traffic laws and regulations, and the operator of all other vehicles on a street or highway, shall yield the right-of-way when such vehicle approaches.

    The foregoing opinion, which I hereby approve, was prepared by my assistant, Moody Mansur.

    Very truly yours,

    John C. Danforth
    Attorney General
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  12. #372
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,923

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    You see, the dangerous thing about throwing these statutes around is, you actually have to read not only the statute, but any opnions or interpretations issued by the state or by the courts. Here is an interpretation offered by none other than your state attorney general. He doesn't exactly see it the way you do:

    Yep, it is pretty dangerous. That is why I clearly included the opinion of another Missouri State Attorney General in my original comment.

    It is also VERY dangerous not to read the entire opinion. The paragraph directly above what you quoted,

    " It is our opinion that under the provisions of the above statutes any motor vehicle, operated by members of an organized fire department or ambulance association whether paid or volunteer, including fire trucks and ambulances, whether publicly owned or privately owned, may be operated on the streets or highways while displaying a red light or with permission from the chief of the fire department or ambulance association, may display a flashing blue light, when responding to an emergency call, and the operators of such vehicles may park irrespective of the provisions of Sections 304.014 to 304.026, disregard stop signals, speed limits, and regulations governing the parking or turning of such vehicles in specific directions, but must obey all other traffic laws and regulations, and the operators of all other vehicles on such street or highway shall yield the right-of-way when such vehicle approaches."

    Two paragraphs above that one,

    "This section applies to members of an organized fire department or ambulance association operating motor vehicles or ambulances, whether the members are paid or volunteers, and whether the motor vehicle or equipment which they are operating is publicly or privately owned. It is not limited to fire trucks or ambulances but applies to any motor vehicle operated by members of an organized fire department or ambulance association. It does not apply to other emergency vehicles described in Section 304.022. It provides that such motor vehicles and equipment may be operated as emergency vehicles under Section 304.022 while responding to a fire call or ambulance call and while sounding a warning siren and while using or displaying flashing or rotating blue lights but sirens and blue lights are permitted only when used during bona fide emergencies."

    So, you are incorrect, the Attorney General of the State of Missouri that signed off on that opinion saw it EXACTLY as I do.
    Last edited by LVFD301; 07-24-2009 at 01:52 PM.

  13. #373
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Yep, it is pretty dangerous. That is why I clearly included the opinion of another Missouri State Attorney General in my original comment.

    It is also VERY dangerous not to read the entire opinion. The paragraph directly above what you quoted,

    " It is our opinion that under the provisions of the above statutes any motor vehicle, operated by members of an organized fire department or ambulance association whether paid or volunteer, including fire trucks and ambulances, whether publicly owned or privately owned, may be operated on the streets or highways while displaying a red light or with permission from the chief of the fire department or ambulance association, may display a flashing blue light, when responding to an emergency call, and the operators of such vehicles may park irrespective of the provisions of Sections 304.014 to 304.026, disregard stop signals, speed limits, and regulations governing the parking or turning of such vehicles in specific directions, but must obey all other traffic laws and regulations, and the operators of all other vehicles on such street or highway shall yield the right-of-way when such vehicle approaches."

    Two paragraphs above that one,

    "This section applies to members of an organized fire department or ambulance association operating motor vehicles or ambulances, whether the members are paid or volunteers, and whether the motor vehicle or equipment which they are operating is publicly or privately owned. It is not limited to fire trucks or ambulances but applies to any motor vehicle operated by members of an organized fire department or ambulance association. It does not apply to other emergency vehicles described in Section 304.022. It provides that such motor vehicles and equipment may be operated as emergency vehicles under Section 304.022 while responding to a fire call or ambulance call and while sounding a warning siren and while using or displaying flashing or rotating blue lights but sirens and blue lights are permitted only when used during bona fide emergencies."

    So, you are incorrect, the Attorney General of the State of Missouri that signed off on that opinion saw it EXACTLY as I do.
    You're out of your league, skippy. What you quoted was the actual statute. What I quoted was the interpretation opinion by the AG.

    And BTW, what is the word directly above the paragraph I quoted?
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  14. #374
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,923

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    You're out of your league, skippy. What you quoted was the actual statute. What I quoted was the interpretation opinion by the AG.

    And BTW, what is the word directly above the paragraph I quoted?
    Skippy? I prefer Sunshine.

    If you read the first message where I made my quote, well, here it is.

    "First of all, yes, Missouri DOES have a state law that says volunteers can exceed the speed limit. Section 307.175, RSMo Supp. 1971 clearly sets this forth, and Missouri State Attorney Generals opinion 152-72 further sets that out. "

    I believe the words "Missouri State Attorney Generals Opinion 152-172" is clearly mentioned. You must have overlooked that.

    Now, insofar as your looking for that word, CONCLUSION. Yes, what you quoted was the CONCLUSION of the answer to the question that was posed by Robert E. Watts, in his capacity as Fire Chief of Brentwood and President of the Greater St. Louis County Fire Chiefs Association consisting of 47 Fire Departments. The question was asked through John A. Grellner
    Representative, District 40.

    Now, lets look at the question that was asked.

    "What color emergency lights are to be used by publicly owned fire equipment and ambulances?"

    So, the Attorney General, in his CONCLUSION, answered the question asked. The question asked was not about volkswagen bugs. It was very specific, FIRE EQUIPMENT AND AMBULANCES. The answer to that very specific question was also very specific,

    Now, in reading the ENTIRE opinion, you can clearly see that he feels that I am right, and you are wrong.

    Lets look at the word conclusion,

    con⋅clu⋅sion  [kuhn-kloo-zhuhn] Show IPA
    –noun
    1. the end or close; final part.
    2. the last main division of a discourse, usually containing a summing up of the points and a statement of opinion or decisions reached.
    3. a result, issue, or outcome; settlement or arrangement: The restitution payment was one of the conclusions of the negotiations.
    4. final decision: The judge has reached his conclusion.
    5. a reasoned deduction or inference.
    6. Logic. a proposition concluded or inferred from the premises of an argument.
    7. Law.
    a. the effect of an act by which the person performing the act is bound not to do anything inconsistent therewith; an estoppel.
    b. the end of a pleading or conveyance.
    8. Grammar. apodosis.

    So, the opinion is not only the conclusion, but the sum of the conclusion. The final part. Just because it is the conclusion does not negate the facts and his opinions that make up the conclusion. He clearly states his opinion in this paragraph, which I repost for you.


    " It is our opinion that under the provisions of the above statutes any motor vehicle, operated by members of an organized fire department or ambulance association whether paid or volunteer, including fire trucks and ambulances, whether publicly owned or privately owned, may be operated on the streets or highways while displaying a red light or with permission from the chief of the fire department or ambulance association, may display a flashing blue light, when responding to an emergency call, and the operators of such vehicles may park irrespective of the provisions of Sections 304.014 to 304.026, disregard stop signals, speed limits, and regulations governing the parking or turning of such vehicles in specific directions, but must obey all other traffic laws and regulations, and the operators of all other vehicles on such street or highway shall yield the right-of-way when such vehicle approaches. "

  15. #375
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Skippy? I prefer Sunshine.

    If you read the first message where I made my quote, well, here it is.

    "First of all, yes, Missouri DOES have a state law that says volunteers can exceed the speed limit. Section 307.175, RSMo Supp. 1971 clearly sets this forth, and Missouri State Attorney Generals opinion 152-72 further sets that out. "

    I believe the words "Missouri State Attorney Generals Opinion 152-172" is clearly mentioned. You must have overlooked that.

    Now, insofar as your looking for that word, CONCLUSION. Yes, what you quoted was the CONCLUSION of the answer to the question that was posed by Robert E. Watts, in his capacity as Fire Chief of Brentwood and President of the Greater St. Louis County Fire Chiefs Association consisting of 47 Fire Departments. The question was asked through John A. Grellner
    Representative, District 40.

    Now, lets look at the question that was asked.

    "What color emergency lights are to be used by publicly owned fire equipment and ambulances?"

    So, the Attorney General, in his CONCLUSION, answered the question asked. The question asked was not about volkswagen bugs. It was very specific, FIRE EQUIPMENT AND AMBULANCES. The answer to that very specific question was also very specific,

    Now, in reading the ENTIRE opinion, you can clearly see that he feels that I am right, and you are wrong.

    Lets look at the word conclusion,

    con⋅clu⋅sion  [kuhn-kloo-zhuhn] Show IPA
    –noun
    1. the end or close; final part.
    2. the last main division of a discourse, usually containing a summing up of the points and a statement of opinion or decisions reached.
    3. a result, issue, or outcome; settlement or arrangement: The restitution payment was one of the conclusions of the negotiations.
    4. final decision: The judge has reached his conclusion.
    5. a reasoned deduction or inference.
    6. Logic. a proposition concluded or inferred from the premises of an argument.
    7. Law.
    a. the effect of an act by which the person performing the act is bound not to do anything inconsistent therewith; an estoppel.
    b. the end of a pleading or conveyance.
    8. Grammar. apodosis.

    So, the opinion is not only the conclusion, but the sum of the conclusion. The final part. Just because it is the conclusion does not negate the facts and his opinions that make up the conclusion. He clearly states his opinion in this paragraph, which I repost for you.


    " It is our opinion that under the provisions of the above statutes any motor vehicle, operated by members of an organized fire department or ambulance association whether paid or volunteer, including fire trucks and ambulances, whether publicly owned or privately owned, may be operated on the streets or highways while displaying a red light or with permission from the chief of the fire department or ambulance association, may display a flashing blue light, when responding to an emergency call, and the operators of such vehicles may park irrespective of the provisions of Sections 304.014 to 304.026, disregard stop signals, speed limits, and regulations governing the parking or turning of such vehicles in specific directions, but must obey all other traffic laws and regulations, and the operators of all other vehicles on such street or highway shall yield the right-of-way when such vehicle approaches. "
    Good try. But wide to the right.

    A CONCLUSION is the final word. In legal writing, a CONCLUSION is your decision or interpretation. It includes everything the writer wants included. I understand you don't like the conclusion, but that's too bad.

    I am done with this topic in order to get the thread back on track.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  16. #376
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    That unfortionatly is one of the big downsides, that this will reflect on the OHP as a whole.

    Personally I have only had one bad experience, with one single Trooper. The incident was handled between our chief and the HQ at the OHP. It had to do with our Engine establishing a block, and the Trooper was not happy about loosing another lane. The incident caused us to review our SOG's and review OHP SOP's. We trained together, we told OHP why we block the way we do, and the OPH told us why they want the roads open. No more problems since then. We and our Troopers know each other by name, ask about each others families, and have a very good relationship on scene.

    But a lot of people will take a look at YouTube and paint their own picture about the OHP. With the attention of CNN we have a chance of being officially know as the state with the "Troopers that go around chocking people".

    If there is one lesson to take away from this whole situation is that we have to keep up with technology. I know we have always been taught to keep an eye out for the news, because they will make you look bad if it equals ratings. But with the rise of YouTube we have to realize that if there is a cell-phone on scene, there is also a camera on scene. You can be perfect for 6 hours, but if you slip up for 10 seconds and someone catches you on their camera, then those 10 seconds will be on YouTube and the news.
    That is interesting becuase we invite the Troopers in for a beer now and then and that keeps things smooth as well.

  17. #377
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Skippy? I prefer Sunshine.

    If you read the first message where I made my quote, well, here it is.

    "First of all, yes, Missouri DOES have a state law that says volunteers can exceed the speed limit. Section 307.175, RSMo Supp. 1971 clearly sets this forth, and Missouri State Attorney Generals opinion 152-72 further sets that out. "

    I believe the words "Missouri State Attorney Generals Opinion 152-172" is clearly mentioned. You must have overlooked that.

    Now, insofar as your looking for that word, CONCLUSION. Yes, what you quoted was the CONCLUSION of the answer to the question that was posed by Robert E. Watts, in his capacity as Fire Chief of Brentwood and President of the Greater St. Louis County Fire Chiefs Association consisting of 47 Fire Departments. The question was asked through John A. Grellner
    Representative, District 40.

    Now, lets look at the question that was asked.

    "What color emergency lights are to be used by publicly owned fire equipment and ambulances?"

    So, the Attorney General, in his CONCLUSION, answered the question asked. The question asked was not about volkswagen bugs. It was very specific, FIRE EQUIPMENT AND AMBULANCES. The answer to that very specific question was also very specific,

    Now, in reading the ENTIRE opinion, you can clearly see that he feels that I am right, and you are wrong.

    Lets look at the word conclusion,

    con⋅clu⋅sion  [kuhn-kloo-zhuhn] Show IPA
    –noun
    1. the end or close; final part.
    2. the last main division of a discourse, usually containing a summing up of the points and a statement of opinion or decisions reached.
    3. a result, issue, or outcome; settlement or arrangement: The restitution payment was one of the conclusions of the negotiations.
    4. final decision: The judge has reached his conclusion.
    5. a reasoned deduction or inference.
    6. Logic. a proposition concluded or inferred from the premises of an argument.
    7. Law.
    a. the effect of an act by which the person performing the act is bound not to do anything inconsistent therewith; an estoppel.
    b. the end of a pleading or conveyance.
    8. Grammar. apodosis.

    So, the opinion is not only the conclusion, but the sum of the conclusion. The final part. Just because it is the conclusion does not negate the facts and his opinions that make up the conclusion. He clearly states his opinion in this paragraph, which I repost for you.


    " It is our opinion that under the provisions of the above statutes any motor vehicle, operated by members of an organized fire department or ambulance association whether paid or volunteer, including fire trucks and ambulances, whether publicly owned or privately owned, may be operated on the streets or highways while displaying a red light or with permission from the chief of the fire department or ambulance association, may display a flashing blue light, when responding to an emergency call, and the operators of such vehicles may park irrespective of the provisions of Sections 304.014 to 304.026, disregard stop signals, speed limits, and regulations governing the parking or turning of such vehicles in specific directions, but must obey all other traffic laws and regulations, and the operators of all other vehicles on such street or highway shall yield the right-of-way when such vehicle approaches. "
    You have shown him the actual laws as well as the opinions that say you can speed, yet he continues to argue. Does that tell you something. Even with overwhelming evidence that he is clearly wrong he continues to argue.

    Some people don't know how to admit they were wrong. Could even be the senility

  18. #378
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,923

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Good try. But wide to the right.

    A CONCLUSION is the final word. In legal writing, a CONCLUSION is your decision or interpretation. It includes everything the writer wants included. I understand you don't like the conclusion, but that's too bad.

    I am done with this topic in order to get the thread back on track.
    The prosecuting attorney for the county is in agreement. The other troopers in the troop are in agreement. The commander of the troop is in agreement. Pretty much the rest of the state is in agreement. They all realize that volunteer firefighters are allowed with due safety to exceed the posted speed limit enroute to an emergency call, if the proper emergency equipment is activated.

    Except for a guy way over on the east coast that has no training in Missouri law, and this one sole trooper.

    I realize its hard for you to admit you are incorrect, and understand why you want the thread to end as it is obvious you are incorrect.

    Thats fine. You have a great day. Its absolutly gorgeous down here in Missouri today.

  19. #379
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    VT
    Posts
    360

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I am done with this topic in order to get the thread back on track.
    A legend in his own mind...

  20. #380
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    Is this little disagreement in regards to exceeding the speed limit or yielding to an LEO?

    If it's exceeding the speed limit (and I don't think it is), even the 30-year old opinion and the statute that's been revised several times since the opinion read that when running lights and siren, and emergency vehicle may exceed the posted speed limit.

    If it's in regards to yielding to a LEO when both are running lights and siren (where I think the disagreement actually is), then it seems to be less black-and-white. If you take the opinion at face value ("but must obey all other traffic laws and regulations,") George could very well be right, if the LEO is responding lights and sirens, as per the statute both must be operating...

    RSMo 304.220 Section 5(3)
    The exemptions granted to an emergency vehicle pursuant to subdivision (2) of this subsection shall apply only when the driver of any such vehicle while in motion sounds audible signal by bell, siren, or exhaust whistle as may be reasonably necessary, and when the vehicle is equipped with at least one lighted lamp displaying a red light or blue light visible under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of five hundred feet to the front of such vehicle.
    The only reason I highlight the "and" is that I often see LEO's running lights and no siren (sometimes for several miles), particularly when performing a traffic stop.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Okla. City newspaper article
    By chiefengineer11 in forum Public Information & Media Relations
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-08-2008, 01:27 PM
  2. State Troopers And Other Funnies
    By MalahatTwo7 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-10-2004, 01:39 PM
  3. Are they Storm Troopers?
    By Adze39 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 04-09-2004, 11:37 PM
  4. Open query for Okla State FPST students/grads...
    By MrFreeze in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-21-2003, 04:19 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts