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Thread: Okla. Troopers

  1. #21
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    While I don't pretend to know the law in Oklahoma, the above is not always true.

    In New Hampshire, an unlawful arrest is assault, and may be (lawfully) resisted, including with force up to and including deadly force.
    Can you show me a cite for this? How does one demonstrate an unlawful arrest? I rarely arrested someone who believed the arrest is lawful. I think there may be more to it than you may think.

    In general, the side of the road is a lousy place to hold these sorts of debates. This should have been dealt with through the respective chains of command.
    If it was a jurisdictional dispute or procedural disagreement (as happened in NJ a while back) I would agree. But there is no time to debate an arrest.
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    Here's an update on this story

    Davis continues to record as first, one trooper can be seen talking to one of the paramedics. A couple of minutes later, another trooper is seen confronting another paramedic and attempting to arrest him. The paramedic can be seen shoving the trooper at which time the scuffle breaks out.

    Maurice White, Jr. is the critical care paramedic seen in the video. In a statement, White says the trooper was upset because the ambulance driver didn't yield when the trooper approached from behind. White says the ambulance driver, Paul Franks, didn't see the trooper.

    The trooper pulled Franks over and was going to write a citation for failure to yield, but White says he tried to tell them they were on an emergency call and needed to take the patient to the hospital and that's when the trooper attempted to arrest White for obstructing an officer.

    A brief struggle followed, at which point the trooper grabbed White by the throat. Davis' cell phone captured this incident on video. White says the trooper later told him they could continue on to the hospital, but that he would be under arrest once they got there. White was never arrested, but says troopers told him he should be prepared to turn himself in if a warrant was issued.

    This link is to the EMT's report.
    http://static.ktul.com/documents/emtstatement_0509.pdf

    Here is the Ambulance drivers report.
    http://static.ktul.com/documents/fra...ement_0509.pdf

    I would like to see the troopers report on this, but at this point, I will side with the EMT's.

    Matt
    Last edited by GhostRider73; 05-27-2009 at 07:17 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostRider73 View Post
    This link is to the EMT's report.
    http://static.ktul.com/documents/emtstatement_0509.pdf

    Here is the Abulance drivers report.
    http://static.ktul.com/documents/fra...ement_0509.pdf

    I would like to see the troopers report on this, but at this point, I will side with the EMT's.

    Matt
    I too would love to read the troopers reports. As of reading the two EMT's reports I'd side with the EMT's. I wouldn't be surprised if the family of the patient sued the police either. However, I will withhold final judgment until I can see more.

    If anyone can post the police report, that would be great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    You are dead wrong. Watch the video again.

    This was not a fight. This was the medic resisting arrest. The trooper very clearly tells the medic "You are under arrest", and begins to take him into custody. At that point, the medic resists and assaults the arresting officer.

    Once a citizen is placed under arrest, they are legally required to submit to the arrest. They are not permitted to resist or physically assault the officer. The question of whether the arrest is lawful will be dealt with later. The question of guilt will be dealt with later. That medic had a legal responsibility to submit to the arrest.

    We have zero idea what occurred prior to the tape rolling. Too friggin' bad that the medic got held by the neck. Do not resist arrest.
    Funny how they never arrest him. I'm not one to cry the race card. Why did the white driver not get a ticket, and the black medic almost gets arrested? I find it strange they are going to take the person who isn't even driving to jail. Read the statements.

    I'm glad you stand up for the police. So many people don't, but this is not the way REAL cops act.
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  5. #25
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    But there is no time to debate an arrest.
    So it is acceptable to arrest an EMT while on the scene, rendering aid to a patient?
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostRider73 View Post
    Here's an update on this story

    Davis continues to record as first, one trooper can be seen talking to one of the paramedics. A couple of minutes later, another trooper is seen confronting another paramedic and attempting to arrest him. The paramedic can be seen shoving the trooper at which time the scuffle breaks out.

    Maurice White, Jr. is the critical care paramedic seen in the video. In a statement, White says the trooper was upset because the ambulance driver didn't yield when the trooper approached from behind. White says the ambulance driver, Paul Franks, didn't see the trooper.

    The trooper pulled Franks over and was going to write a citation for failure to yield, but White says he tried to tell them they were on an emergency call and needed to take the patient to the hospital and that's when the trooper attempted to arrest White for obstructing an officer.

    A brief struggle followed, at which point the trooper grabbed White by the throat. Davis' cell phone captured this incident on video. White says the trooper later told him they could continue on to the hospital, but that he would be under arrest once they got there. White was never arrested, but says troopers told him he should be prepared to turn himself in if a warrant was issued.

    This link is to the EMT's report.
    http://static.ktul.com/documents/emtstatement_0509.pdf

    Here is the Ambulance drivers report.
    http://static.ktul.com/documents/fra...ement_0509.pdf

    I would like to see the troopers report on this, but at this point, I will side with the EMT's.

    Matt
    Which brings us back to the question - If I am responding in emergency mode, I don't have to obey the laws, therefore, I don't have to yield to the Trooper. I would expect as a minimum the trooper gets a butt chewing.

  7. #27
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    I am defending no one here.

    Reading all reports published so far, including written statements made by the Medic and the EMT/Driver (published on Dave Statter's website) indicate that perhaps the first officer (the one who passed and made the statement over the radio) thought he was "flipped off."

    From the actions and attitude of the second officer, makes me think that perhaps the first officer called back to the second one over a police frequency and told him about the alleged "flip off." I could be wrong, but why else would a second (non involved) officer choose to get involved unless he was specifically requested to do so???

    I agree with George that the Medic was resisting. I agree with others that the Officers were a bit mal-adjusted. They could have waited until the patient was turned over to the ER.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    George,

    What about the law protecting EMS personnel in OK from assault while doing their duties?

    The OHP officer did lay hands on a critical care provider while performing their duty. Is that not also assault? And could the EMT file charges against the OHP officer.

  9. #29
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    Just as general background information - Trooper Daniel Marting, badge 606 graduated from the Oklahoma State Police Academy July of 2007, giving him less than 2 years on the force as a sworn officer.

    Maurice White Jr, EMT-P, CCP, has 30 years in EMS, 19 of them in Oklahoma. He also has been very vocal and a "mover and shaker" in rural prehospital care in Oklahoma.

    http://www.ok.gov/health/documents/T...inoklahoma.pdf


    is an example of some of his work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    So it is acceptable to arrest an EMT while on the scene, rendering aid to a patient?
    There is no privelege in the law that exempts an EMT "rendering aid" from a lawful arrest.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lexfd5 View Post
    George,

    What about the law protecting EMS personnel in OK from assault while doing their duties?

    The OHP officer did lay hands on a critical care provider while performing their duty. Is that not also assault? And could the EMT file charges against the OHP officer.
    Why don't you read the whole thread before posting?

    It is most certainly not an assault. Once the officer places a person under arrest, he is permitted to use a continuum of force to overcome resistance. As I stated earlier, the mistake the officer made (from a legal standpoint), and the part that is going to get him in the most trouble, is that he did not take the EMT into custody. As I said, an officer cannot "unarrest" someone.

    The EMT can file charges against whoever he wants.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    I think the decision to not take him into custody was made by the DA while they were at the hospital. The troopers allowed them to take the patient to the hospital with the intention of arresting him there. In the EMT's report, he exits the hospital to be arrested. At that time 606 was on the phone with the DA. The troopers then just asked for all his contact info, and told him to be ready to turn himself in if/when a warrent was issued this week.

    Matt

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Just as general background information - Trooper Daniel Marting, badge 606 graduated from the Oklahoma State Police Academy July of 2007, giving him less than 2 years on the force as a sworn officer.

    Maurice White Jr, EMT-P, CCP, has 30 years in EMS, 19 of them in Oklahoma. He also has been very vocal and a "mover and shaker" in rural prehospital care in Oklahoma.

    http://www.ok.gov/health/documents/T...inoklahoma.pdf


    is an example of some of his work.
    Well there you go. Young rookie cop with his hormones in an uproar thinking he is god. The only thing worse than a cop with less than 5 years experience is a 2nd lieutenant.

    And would someone answer the question. Does a responding vehicle have to pull over for another responding vehicle? I'm pretty sure the answer is no and this rookie cop was out of line and should be disciplined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Why don't you read the whole thread before posting?

    It is most certainly not an assault. Once the officer places a person under arrest, he is permitted to use a continuum of force to overcome resistance. As I stated earlier, the mistake the officer made (from a legal standpoint), and the part that is going to get him in the most trouble, is that he did not take the EMT into custody. As I said, an officer cannot "unarrest" someone.

    The EMT can file charges against whoever he wants.
    Why do you have to be such a d@#k.

    I was asking a simple question. Thank goodness you don't work in my area. All the LEOs I work with are great and don't have the same arrogant attitude you display. It was a simple question, nothing more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Well there you go. Young rookie cop with his hormones in an uproar thinking he is god. The only thing worse than a cop with less than 5 years experience is a 2nd lieutenant.

    And would someone answer the question. Does a responding vehicle have to pull over for another responding vehicle? I'm pretty sure the answer is no and this rookie cop was out of line and should be disciplined.
    People keep bringing this up - but I don't see where it said that the ambulance was driving with is Lights and Sirens activated. I can see where it was very possible that they were NOT using LAS.

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    My father was doing a transfer from our local hospital to Dartmouth Hitchcock with lights and sirens. He had a doctor, nurse and an EMT in the back of the rig along with the patient (serious cardiac patient).

    A police officer from a neighboring town pulled them over saying he didn't think they needed to be driving through his town with lights and sirens going (they were traveling the speed limit). My dad was irked to say the least, but let the cop have his say. He then called our chief, who called the police chief in the neighboring town, who then called the police officer, who then had to apologize to my dad and the rest of the people that were on the ambulance when they drove back through town on the way home.

    The police officer was told to NEVER pull over an ambulance running lights and sirens unless they were doing something dangerous (like things falling off the truck).

    As for the original post...from what I understand the ambulance was NOT running lights or sirens, but it doesn't say specifically. As for protocol...*shrug* I don't have a clue.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    And would someone answer the question. Does a responding vehicle have to pull over for another responding vehicle? I'm pretty sure the answer is no and this rookie cop was out of line and should be disciplined.
    Here is a copy of the Oklahoma vehicle code. Notice that there is nothing within the subsection that grants other responding emergency vehicles exception from yielding to the LEO.


    Oklahoma Statutes Citationized
    Title 47. Motor Vehicles
    Chapter 11 - Rules of the Road
    Article Article 4 - Right Of Way
    Section 11-405 - Operation Of Vehicles On Approach Of Authorized Emergency Vehicles

    Cite as: O.S. §, __ __

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A. Upon the immediate approach of an authorized emergency vehicle making use of audible and visual signals meeting the requirements of Section 12-218 of this act, or of a police vehicle properly and lawfully making use of an audible signal or red flashing lights, the driver of every other vehicle shall yield the right-of-way and shall immediately drive to a position parallel to, and as close as possible to, the right-hand edge or curb of the roadway clear of any intersection and shall stop and remain in such position until the authorized emergency vehicle has passed, except when otherwise directed by a police officer.

    B. This section shall not be construed to require a peace officer operating a police vehicle properly and lawfully in response to a crime in progress to use audible signals nor shall this section operate to relieve the driver of an authorized emergency vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons using the highway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    People keep bringing this up - but I don't see where it said that the ambulance was driving with is Lights and Sirens activated. I can see where it was very possible that they were NOT using LAS.
    When the ambulance is shown throughout the 3:10 unedited video, it doesn't have it's warning lights on while stationary. I would find it hard to believe that the driver would have turned them off when he stopped for the OHP, assuming that he may have had them on while driving? I'm with you, LVFD, no indication that this was a LAS response to the hospital.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    People keep bringing this up - but I don't see where it said that the ambulance was driving with is Lights and Sirens activated. I can see where it was very possible that they were NOT using LAS.
    Well I got it form the original post (although I had to go back and look becuase I couldn't remember where I got that idea.
    The fight happened during an emergency call when a patient waiting to be taken to the local hospital was in the back of the ambulance.

    Officials say OHP troopers became upset after the paramedic failed to yield while the troopers were rushing to a call of their own.
    Perhaps the article is wrong

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    Default Damage to all emergency services...

    If an incident like this took place in the state of the New York, as well as other states, the trooper could face criminal and civil liability for the obstruction of a rescue. The trooper's actions delayed patient care and impacted quality of patient care. The simple fact of the matter is that the trooper responded emotionally to a small error on the part of the ambulance driver. Emergency vehicle operators often face difficulty in navigating through traffic safely and efficiently. If a police officer, trooper, deputy, etc. cannot maintain themselves in a professional manner and my lack the ability to control emotional outbursts, then they become a danger to the public. It is not uncommon for emergency vehicle operators to face vehicles on the roadway unable to or unwilling to properly yield the right of way. Most emergency vehicle operation experts would probably agree that the use of emergency lights and sirens in the operation of the vehicle is over depended upon. It is most important that emergency responders realize they must maintain full control of their vehicle at all times in emergency operation especially. When any vehicle operating in “emergency conditions” engages an ambulance, school bus or highway/roadway maintenance area it is the responsibility of emergency vehicle operator who is driving under “emergency condition” to ensure the safety of those outside his or her vehicle. With regard to approaching school buses ambulances or public works/construction zones there is no greater error than that emergency vehicle operator feeling or believing that it is safe to pass those vehicles or personnel at high rate of speed. There is absolutely no excuse for such behavior. If a police officer cannot understand the danger associated with approaching these specific types of apparatus or areas, then again that individual becomes a risk to public safety. Under emergency conditions the operator of a vehicle must be prepared to take measures to ensure public safety.
    All emergency vehicle operators should understand that the greatest dangers faced in our operation of emergency vehicles, as the unexpected movement or lack of movement by other motorists. But there are few accidents that are more tragic than those involving multiple emergency vehicles. Emergency medical services, law enforcement and fire and rescue agencies that utilize lights and sirens to warn the public of their approach must engage in constant and vigorous training to ensure that every operator understands not only the consequence of their actions, but the realities of actions they may need to take.
    In observing the facts only presented in the news media, we should realize that whatever call the trooper had been responding to, was of such little importance that there was still enough time to return to the location of the ambulance prior to its arrival at the hospital. Emergency conditions are often overused by all emergency services. It is essential for all emergency responders to also understand that an “emergency” is not necessarily the same from one person to the next. Not knowing what the nature of the trooper’s emergency call or the nature of medical emergency onboard the ambulance, it is still plainly logical to see that in a short time this law-enforcement officer became emotionally unbalanced in his anger toward the ambulance crew. Having enough time to clear the call and return to take out his anger on the ambulance crew, regardless of the reality of the emergencies involved. In doing this the trooper demonstrates his own inability to maintain his professionalism and emotional stability, as well as a reckless disregard for public safety and other public safety workers.

    generally the law is not a clear as to the rights of an emergency worker’s rights in the performance of their duties while caring for patient. (At first glance I was unable to find anything specific.) Certainly there is no definable legal statute in this case, however there are clear statutes in regard to patient care, and the right of the patient to be cared for. Had the trooper followed through with the arrest he would have most certainly denied that patient of the right to medical care, and interfered or obstructed that patients care. Taking action such as this, over a potential traffic violation, is most certainly reckless and also quite obviously a willingness to endanger the patient by forcing the medical care to cease by way of impeding the paramedics ability to care for the patient. This may or may not be life endangerment, depending on the level of care being provided. Now I'll try not to “if” this too much, but it was the responsibility of the trooper to realize or take into account variables and unknowns that could contribute to the threat of life safety. For example; if appropriate care involving medications were administered by the medic causing an allergic reaction, that the paramedic would be unable to care for or correct as a result of his arrest, the patient would then suffer the consequence. That being said I feel it necessary to point out that one of the paramedic’s duties is to attend and protect the patient. Until the patient is delivered it safely to the hospital and under the care of appropriate medical facilities, it is the responsibility of the paramedic to act as the patients advocate and medical care.
    As it appears in this circumstance, keeping in mind that we only have the news reports to go on, the trooper interfering with the operation of the ambulance and patient care was absolutely unacceptable behavior. The trooper should have taken note the ambulance identification and later sought out the operator / crew at a time when the ambulance was not engaged in its duty.
    It is also important to realize that the trooper involved did appear to responded to the situation with uncontrolled anger. We're not talking about the arrest of a gang member engaging in a felony, this was a paramedic engaging his duties to treat, attend, protect and advocate for his patient. More importantly this was not the individual driving the vehicle that perpetuated the failure to yield complaint. This type of action, especially coupled with media coverage, and the Internet could easily lead to increasing tensions between police officers and other emergency services. This type of incident being blown out of proportion, and becoming center stage creating animosity can only do damage to all emergency services in the eyes of the public. There is no need for police officers, firefighters, emergency medical personnel, and the various other branches of public safety to develop more of an “us vs. them” mentality. It is essential that we all work together, and utilize the appropriate systems in place to address problems, very simply the incident should only be addressed through the appropriate Chain of command.
    I do not think it would be a stretch of the imagination to give benefit of the doubt to the ambulance driver in this case, as I said all emergency vehicle operators have faced motorists who simply did not notice them. It should never be cause for this level of excitement in any emergency vehicle operator.
    A quick note in regards to the law: generally speaking police officers are only well-versed in criminal procedure and penal law, sections of vehicle and traffic law pertaining to “the rules of the road” and specific sections for “special conditions”. Outside of these areas of law, a police officer does not necessarily have any understanding or specific training. Therefore it is important to realize that although they are “law enforcement” the function of the police is not one of supreme jurist action. The legal system is built on various levels to address the diversity of issues among the citizens of each municipality, state and the federal government. Because of the complexity of the law throughout the United States, the system in place provides various levels of law-enforcement (including: police, probation, corrections, etc.), attorneys both for the prosecution/complainant and defense, judges of increasing levels authority and finally a jury. These levels within law are designed to settle all matters of law. The police are not rule of law, but are the sworn servants and protectors of the law and the public for which the law is enacted.
    Give our thoughts and prayers for our brothers. May we honor them by learning how to keep others safe while we remember their dedication, sacrifices and heroic efforts...
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    Mitchell Donovan
    Battalion Chief
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