Thread: Okla. Troopers

  1. #51
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Henryetta, Ok
    Posts
    70

    Default

    Here are links to a independent witness statment, and an updated news story,
    also here is a portion of a Okla state law quoted in the story.

    "Every person who willfully delays...an emergency medical technician...in the performance of...care and treatment...is guilty of a misdemeanor."

    http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=10440200

    http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griff...nessletter.pdf

    The ambulance was NOT running LAS

    Matt

  2. #52
    MembersZone Subscriber
    LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,963

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EFD840 View Post
    No. You're correct about corrections, but not the others. Troopers and some cities require longer training sessions, but the minimum standards course is all that is required to be a LEO in Alabama. As an example, Montgomery opens its recruit school to outside agencies. At the end of the course, those officers graduate and return home to hit the streets. Montgomery officers continue the city mandated training but as far as the state goes they're officers when they finish the minimum standards portion.
    Ok, I learn something new every day!

  3. #53
    Forum Member
    nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,578

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Let me ask you a question. Based on your biased view of the law and your complete lack of respect for police officers, would your FF be permitted to resist a lawful arrest? Remember, this was (until the officer let him go) a lawful arrest-see post above.

    BTW, counselor, corrections and probation are not law enforcement.
    George, serious question. If he was never arrested, how was he resisting arrest?


    Not addressed to anyone in particular....but anyone not finding fault in EVERYONE involved is either lying, or isnt too bright.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 05-29-2009 at 12:37 AM.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  4. #54
    Banned

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    I have to agree the Trooper is out of line. They don't do that to ordinary citizens.

    I did see this though "So, who had the right of way? The Creek Nation admits the ambulance did not have on its lights and sirens, while the trooper had on his lights, but no sirens"

    Should the Paramedic have pulled over? Probably.
    Should the Trooper have overreacted? Probably not.
    Should the Paramedic stand there and let someone choke him? NOPE!!!

  5. #55
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    George, serious question. If he was never arrested, how was he resisting arrest?


    Not addressed to anyone in particular....but anyone not finding fault in EVERYONE involved is either lying, or isnt too bright.
    That is what I have been talking about. He WAS placed under arrest. The Trooper walked up to the EMT and said, quite clearly, "You are under arrest...". At that time, the Trooper put his hands on the EMT and began to take him into custody. The EMT resisted and assaulted the Trooper.

    The Trooper screwed up when he let him go. You cannot "un-arrest" someone. Only the courts can do that. If I put my hands on you, you are going in cuffs. The Trooper opened the door to a myriad of problems when he let the EMT go.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  6. #56
    MembersZone Subscriber
    LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,963

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I have to agree the Trooper is out of line. They don't do that to ordinary citizens.

    I did see this though "So, who had the right of way? The Creek Nation admits the ambulance did not have on its lights and sirens, while the trooper had on his lights, but no sirens"

    Should the Paramedic have pulled over? Probably.
    Should the Trooper have overreacted? Probably not.
    Should the Paramedic stand there and let someone choke him? NOPE!!!
    Uh, the Paramedic was not driving - how was he going to pull over?

  7. #57
    Forum Member
    nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,578

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    That is what I have been talking about. He WAS placed under arrest. The Trooper walked up to the EMT and said, quite clearly, "You are under arrest...". At that time, the Trooper put his hands on the EMT and began to take him into custody. The EMT resisted and assaulted the Trooper.

    The Trooper screwed up when he let him go. You cannot "un-arrest" someone. Only the courts can do that. If I put my hands on you, you are going in cuffs. The Trooper opened the door to a myriad of problems when he let the EMT go.
    Yeah thats what I was getting at.....he kind of painted himself into a corner by not arresting him. Although then again....what would the initial arrest have been for? Failure to yield?
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  8. #58
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    I have no idea what the initial charge was. It really doesn't matter. Once you put your hands on someone to take them into custody, its kind of hard to take the words back.

    This will probably be the biggest problem he faces internally.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  9. #59
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Henryetta, Ok
    Posts
    70

    Default

    From all the statements I have read, the EMT in the back was being arrested for obstruction. The trooper said this right after the EMT informed him they had a patient in the back they were transporting, and they could continue this at the hospital. He (EMT) then told his partner to listen to him, and they did not have time for this now.

    Disclaimer: I have not read or heard the troopers side of this dispute, my info comes from the EMT reports, and witness statements.

    Matt

  10. #60

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    1

    Default

    So who pulls over the Troopers when they fail to yield for Fire and EMS?

  11. #61
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Voorheesville, NY
    Posts
    14

    Default Biased view ?

    How is believing that public safety is ensured through proper training and execution of proper action a biased viewpoint against police? I think it is your viewpoint that is biased. It seems as if a person who becomes aggravated and lashes out against another person, it is an assault. Unless of course it's a police officer, then it's merely the other person's fault for resisting. But whether you're a law enforcement officer, or buff… it doesn't matter no one can argue that the police have any right at all to violate the law, break the chain of command or endanger any citizen.
    Perhaps the way I present my view is not particularly in favor of the actions of the trooper, but I very clearly stated, this was my opinion based only on what facts and information was available by news media.
    My viewpoint on police and all levels of the criminal justice and overall justice system, is one of concern. But he did not feel that this incident would be something that should be addressed to the whole criminal justice system. More appropriately the whole criminal justice system should learn from this. What I would like to get across is that the trooper should probably learn to manage emotional responses to incidence. This is probably true for the paramedic as well.
    What struck me as clearly evident was the fact that the trooper had enough time to clear the call he was on and find the same ambulance still en route to the hospital. What could have been so important that the trooper was that worked up about? I don't know the answer to that question, all I know is that the ambulance was still carrying a patient.
    Making a public spectacle of interagency difficulty, is absolutely unacceptable, again for both sides. I grant you (again) that my viewpoints are only speculation and only to be observable facts, and stories reported.
    No matter what, it is essential that public safety personnel, regardless of their type of agency, understand we are meant to serve the greater good of our community. It is a difficult enough task for all public safety & emergency responders to do their jobs, without infighting or interagency “scuffles”.


    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Let me ask you a question. Based on your biased view of the law and your complete lack of respect for police officers, would your FF be permitted to resist a lawful arrest? Remember, this was (until the officer let him go) a lawful arrest-see post above.

    BTW, counselor, corrections and probation are not law enforcement.
    Give our thoughts and prayers for our brothers. May we honor them by learning how to keep others safe while we remember their dedication, sacrifices and heroic efforts...
    ______________
    Mitchell Donovan
    Battalion Chief
    Onesquethaw VFC

  12. #62
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mdonovan74 View Post
    I think it is your viewpoint that is biased. It seems as if a person who becomes aggravated and lashes out against another person, it is an assault.
    FWIW, the from nolo.com:

    Assault: A crime that occurs when one person tries to physically harm another in a way that makes the person under attack feel immediately threatened. Actual physical contact is not necessary; threatening gestures that would alarm any reasonable person can constitute an assault.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  13. #63
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Clearly the trooper was wrong to take this up at that time. If it was such an emergency how did he have time to stop and work over the EMT's.

    Sorry, that's not how it should have been handled. It could've been done at the hospital after the EMTs transferred the patient.

    Were the EMTs wrong.. dunno. Even if they were wrong and didn't pull over, did it really need to be handled like this? Were they a threat to the public safety...really?

    Also, what's with the choke hold? Is that a standard LEO practice??

    I like how one of the LEO's forums put it.

    They should have waited untili later to start measuring their D##ks.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  14. #64
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Voorheesville, NY
    Posts
    14

    Default ok ok...

    Assault by definition, sure... or...

    NY laws use harassment or aggravated harassment in the same way that many other states use the term assault.

    The legal definition does vary some from state to state... NY does not have a legal section defining "battery" for example, it is simply assault.

    But that is a good point to address as when I heard "assault", in my mind I thought of NY law. So an assault in OK law might be defined differently.

    Still the real issue is place and time...
    Wrong place and time for this, and action like this could have jeopardized patient safety.

    Source for NY - NYS Penal Law (NYS consolidated law) Sec. 120.00 and 240.25. Other NYS sections of note relating to me previous posts… 195.16 - 120.08 - 120.20.

    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    FWIW, the from nolo.com:
    Assault: A crime that occurs when one person tries to physically harm another in a way that makes the person under attack feel immediately threatened. Actual physical contact is not necessary; threatening gestures that would alarm any reasonable person can constitute an assault.
    Give our thoughts and prayers for our brothers. May we honor them by learning how to keep others safe while we remember their dedication, sacrifices and heroic efforts...
    ______________
    Mitchell Donovan
    Battalion Chief
    Onesquethaw VFC

  15. #65
    Banned

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    Here is another take on the whole issue. A retired law enforcement officer and an attorney are both saying the COP was way out of line

    http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bes...brawls.emt.cnn

  16. #66
    MembersZone Subscriber
    LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,963

    Default

    the retired cop cannot even figure out from all that info that the ambulance was not running LAS.

  17. #67
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,439

    Default

    From the Cop Forums: The Cop was out of line

    From the EMS Forums: The Cop was out of line

    From the Fire Forums: The Cop was out of line

    From George: The Cops didn't do anything wrong

    Posted at Officer.com
    Last edited by MarcusKspn; 05-31-2009 at 08:08 AM.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

  18. #68
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    From the Cop Forums: The Cop was out of line

    From the EMS Forums: The Cop was out of line

    From the Fire Forums: The Cop was out of line

    From George: The Cops didn't do anything wrong

    Posted at Officer.com
    Please post one of my posts, just one, where I said the Trooper did nothing wrong. Let me help you. There are none.

    I have posted clearly the many areas the Troopers were wrong. I refuse to characterize what started this incident because there is an unknown portion of this incident that occurred prior to the Pts. son rolling the cell phone cam. But the Troopers did plenty wrong.

    The Medic was wrong, too. This was, despite your militia propaganda, was a lawful arrest. As I have posted earlier, a lawful arrest is not judged by the ultimate guilt or innocence of the arrestee. Unless new information comes to light, the Trooper was a) in his jurisdiction, b) was acting in the course of his duties, c) advised the Medic he was under arrest, d) advised the charge the Medic would be charged with and e) attempted to place him into custody using appropriate techniques. Yes, the Trooper let him go. That was a huge mistake. But a person cannot resist arrest simply because they say the arrest was unlawful. As I posted previously, I never arrested anyone who believed I was making a lawful arrest.

    Now, bigmouth, post one post where I said the Troopers did nothing wrong. We'll be waiting anxiously.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  19. #69
    Banned

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    They haven't released the dash cam, but the MEDIC they are arresting is inside the ambulance. You clearly see him going in the back door and closing it roughly 15 seconds passes, the medic is still inside. Next thing is the officer standing there saying he is under arrest. WTF!!!. I'm not sure the medic did anything wrong, and that video certainly doesn't show it. If the medic assaulted one of the troopers he should have been arrested immediately, not some 30 seconds later after they had a chance to make up a story.

    Personally, I didn't see the Medics doing anything wrong. We can't have these idiots with badges running around making arbitrary arrest for traffic violations. This is non-senses.

  20. #70
    MembersZone Subscriber
    LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,963

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post

    From George: The Cops didn't do anything wrong

    Posted at Officer.com
    I don't know where this comes from. George clearly said that the arrest and then subsequent "unarrest" was wrong - which is totally correct.

    He also said without more information he could not make a call on the rest.

    He also pointed out, and I agree, that the Medic was probably not without fault either.

    Its great that people come to the support of our own, but that support should not be blind support.
    Last edited by LVFD301; 05-31-2009 at 12:56 PM.

  21. #71
    Forum Member
    ThNozzleman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Jefferson City, TN
    Posts
    4,334

    Default

    Unless new information comes to light, the Trooper was a) in his jurisdiction, b) was acting in the course of his duties, c) advised the Medic he was under arrest, d) advised the charge the Medic would be charged with and e) attempted to place him into custody using appropriate techniques.
    If the statement of the medic that I read is even remotely true, this officer was certainly not acting in the course of his duties. I'd wager the reason the medic wasn't ultimately arrested was because they knew damn well there was no valid reason to do so, and the ******bag rookie trooper got orders from someone higher up armed with a little common sense, not just adrenaline and a lousy attitude.

  22. #72
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    If the statement of the medic that I read is even remotely true, this officer was certainly not acting in the course of his duties. I'd wager the reason the medic wasn't ultimately arrested was because they knew damn well there was no valid reason to do so, and the ******bag rookie trooper got orders from someone higher up armed with a little common sense, not just adrenaline and a lousy attitude.
    ******bag comment aside, you are no doubt correct about some cooler heads prevailed somewhere. But the only way the State can get out of a heap of trouble is to charge the Medic, and have the matter heard in court. If they don't charge him, the Trooper is absolutely screwed.

    But the arrest was lawful-if he had made it properly-was lawful. He announced the Medic was under arrest-plainly and clearly. The charge he was arrested for was a misdemeanor (I think), and the Trooper has the discretion to make an arrest for the offense. Guilt or innocence is irelevant in determining whether it was lawful.

    Whatsa matter Marcus-cat got your fingers? I am waiting for your posts where I said the Trooper did nothing wrong.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  23. #73
    Forum Member
    ThNozzleman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Jefferson City, TN
    Posts
    4,334

    Default

    But the arrest was lawful-if he had made it properly-was lawful.
    I don't think he could have made it properly. I think that once the officer let himself move into the realm of rage over rational thinking, he was damned either way.
    ******bag comment aside, you are no doubt correct about some cooler heads prevailed somewhere.
    Nah...this guy lost his head and ******d right the hell out from the very start. From what I can tell, he didn't do a single thing the right way. That patient's care and welfare trumped any hurt feelings suffered by any rookie with more badge than brains.

  24. #74
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Nah...this guy lost his head and ******d right the hell out from the very start. From what I can tell, he didn't do a single thing the right way. That patient's care and welfare trumped any hurt feelings suffered by any rookie with more badge than brains.
    Once I see or hear about the dash cam contents, I will probably agree with you.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  25. #75
    Forum Member
    ThNozzleman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Jefferson City, TN
    Posts
    4,334

    Default

    Once I see or hear about the dash cam contents, I will probably agree with you.
    Heh..we should start a legal firm and only accept cases we on which we have total agreement. Wouldn't be many, but Judge Judy wouldn't have **** on us.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Okla. City newspaper article
    By chiefengineer11 in forum Public Information & Media Relations
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-08-2008, 01:27 PM
  2. State Troopers And Other Funnies
    By MalahatTwo7 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-10-2004, 01:39 PM
  3. Are they Storm Troopers?
    By Adze39 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 04-09-2004, 11:37 PM
  4. Open query for Okla State FPST students/grads...
    By MrFreeze in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-21-2003, 04:19 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register