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Thread: Okla. Troopers

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    I might be misunderstanding this, but do your laws allow a police officer unfettered right to make an arrest using only his perception or judgement?
    Don't confuse "making an arrest" with stopping the vehicle. Regardless, no, the police officer must have reasonable suspicion, not probable cause, to stop a violator. The trooper could articulate that the RS to stop the vehicle was the driver's failure to yield, and the "attempted" arrest of the medic was subsequent to the traffic stop.

    This isn't really the time to get into the discussion of a LEO witnessing an illegal act (or possession of illegal material) secondary to an illegal stop.
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    I guess as of yesterday, there has been no action from The DA's office on this matter. Was it possible for them to see this case for what is really is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Yes. But I don't see where I said that an unlawful arrest had to be tolerated. Seems to me you are splitting hairs.
    The word is "resisted", not "tolerated."

    Citizens have the right to RESIST unlawful arrest, with force up to and including deadly force.

    You stated, in as many words, that citizens have no right to resist arrest, and that the lawfulness of that arrest will be determined later. That is simply not correct, and it is not splitting hairs to point that out.

    If that arrest was unlawful (and I agree that is probably was not) than the medic committed no crime by resisting. Period, full stop, end of story.
    Last edited by NewHampshireFF; 06-02-2009 at 02:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    BTW, we're still waiting for big mouth Marcus to show us his evidence.
    "We" are waiting, or "You" are waiting.

    I call it as I see it. You have stated that you believe the trooper was wrong, and always followed it with a "But..."

    You only narrowly admit a mistake on his part, but like to point out that for whatever misguided reason he wanted to arrest the medic, it is the medics fault the situation escalated.

    The way I read your posts on this topic my OPINION is that you think the cop is more right than wrong.

    Evidence? What evidence? Is this a court trial? The case of Marcus vs. George? I told you what I thought about your posts, if you don't agree, then you don't agree, end of story.

    The biggest problem with these boards over the last 6 months has been the fact that we cannot have a disagreement without it becoming a personal mission to find out who has a bigger penis.

    George, if we were sitting at the firehouse together I would have simply told you that I feel even though you are critical of the cops specific actions, your statements feel like you don't believe the cop was wrong for attempting to arrest the patient. And then we would have talked about it. But on here it becomes a case of quoting, requoting, then someone quotes someone again and changes their screenname to Idiotboy (not you George), and it becomes less about the actual topic and more about personal attacks and vendettas.

    I will repeat the thought of my original post:

    I feel even though you are critical of the cops specific actions, your statements feel like you don't believe the cop was wrong for attempting to arrest the medic.

    Once again, that is my opinion, and I'm not going to spend the next 45 minutes quoting you and explaining to you why I take your posts that way. Just because I feel that you are backing the cop here, does not mean that I think you are a ****ty person. It does not mean that I think any less or any more of you, for pete's sake I don't have an f-ing clue who you are and what you are like. I don't know why you are taking this as a personal attack.
    Last edited by MarcusKspn; 06-02-2009 at 02:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedic20 View Post
    I guess as of yesterday, there has been no action from The DA's office on this matter. Was it possible for them to see this case for what is really is?
    If you were the DA, would you want to get in the middle of this?

    While I personally doubt there is a racial issue here, it wouldn't surprise me if this were part of a larger jurisdictional p1$$ing match. I note that the medics were employed by the Creek Nation. If the OHP gets along with the Creeks as well as the Connecticut State Police get along with the Pequots, it's a wonder there wasn't gunplay.*

    * Obviously, this is pure idle speculation. Don't bother pointing that out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    "We" are waiting, or "You" are waiting.

    I call it as I see it. You have stated that you believe the trooper was wrong, and always followed it with a "But..."

    You only narrowly admit a mistake on his part, but like to point out that for whatever misguided reason he wanted to arrest the medic, it is the medics fault the situation escalated.

    The way I read your posts on this topic my OPINION is that you think the cop is more right than wrong.

    Evidence? What evidence? Is this a court trial? The case of Marcus vs. George? I told you what I thought about your posts, if you don't agree, then you don't agree, end of story.

    The biggest problem with these boards over the last 6 months has been the fact that we cannot have a disagreement without it becoming a personal mission to find out who has a bigger penis.

    George, if we were sitting at the firehouse together I would have simply told you that I feel even though you are critical of the cops specific actions, your statements feel like you don't believe the cop was wrong for attempting to arrest the patient. And then we would have talked about it. But on here it becomes a case of quoting, requoting, then someone quotes someone again and changes their screenname to Idiotboy (not you George), and it becomes less about the actual topic and more about personal attacks and vendettas.

    I will repeat the thought of my original post:

    I feel even though you are critical of the cops specific actions, your statements feel like you don't believe the cop was wrong for attempting to arrest the medic.

    Once again, that is my opinion, and I'm not going to spend the next 45 minutes quoting you and explaining to you why I take your posts that way. Just because I feel that you are backing the cop here, does not mean that I think you are a ****ty person. It does not mean that I think any less or any more of you, for pete's sake I don't have an f-ing clue who you are and what you are like. I don't know why you are taking this as a personal attack.
    So, in other words, you cannot demonstrate anywhere except in your little head that I believe the Trooper was right. Despite the fact that I clearly said he was wrong. Despite the fact that I have explained myself in painfully tedious detail. Despite the fact that I have been in situations and you have not involving arrests, you will continue to say, without basis that I believe the Trooper was right.

    You called me out on this, pal. You thought you would get a cute little dig in, that everyone would jump to support you and that you would get a rise out of me. Well, you got no support and your opinion is so clearly wrong and based on absolute fabrications that it is not even worth getting a rise out of me.

    You're right. You don't know me. But I think we have learned an awful lot about you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewHampshireFF View Post
    The word is "resisted", not "tolerated."

    Citizens have the right to RESIST unlawful arrest, with force up to and including deadly force.

    You stated, in as many words, that citizens have no right to resist arrest, and that the lawfulness of that arrest will be determined later. That is simply not correct, and it is not splitting hairs to point that out.

    If that arrest was unlawful (and I agree that is probably was not) than the medic committed no crime by resisting. Period, full stop, end of story.
    I think the key to this is my use of the wording "dealt with later". OF course it will be dealt with later. When else would it be dealt with? There is no referee that will come out to arbitrate the disagreement.

    In 99.99999999999999999999999999999999% of the cases, it is not possible for a citizen to determine the lawfulness of the arrest on the street.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post

    In 99.99999999999999999999999999999999% of the cases, it is not possible for a citizen to determine the lawfulness of the arrest on the street.
    Absurd. Just who do you think it is that will ultimately determine the lawfulness of an arrest? Citizens.

    The limits of the discretion we grant police officers didn't come down from the Mount graven on stone tablets. Discretion was granted by acts of democratically elected legislatures, or by the people directly via referenda. It can be modified, and if things continue to go the way they have been, I expect to see the discretion of police officers significantly reduced. Which, IMO, would be a bad thing. Which is why I hate to see cases like this one, where a jack-off of a trooper makes things harder for everyone.

    There is a department not far from me where the standard duty uniform is now full, military-style BDUs, complete with webbing. And they have adopted attitudes to match. Some of those officers suspect we are laughing at them, and they're right. That department just had its annual budget severely "adjusted" by the voters. It seems that the people don't necesarily want their police to look and act like an occupying army.

    Cops get understandably (if overly) upset about "contempt of cop." But it is the contempt of some cops for the free citizens of this country that causes a significant amount of tension between the police and law-abiding but non-cowed citizens.

    We need to foster an atmosphere of MUTUAL respect.
    Last edited by NewHampshireFF; 06-02-2009 at 03:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    In99.99999999999999999999999999999999% of the cases, it is not possible for a citizen to determine the lawfulness of the arrest on the street.
    David Koresh thought that way.... how did it work for him?

    Not so good.
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    [QUOTE=NewHampshireFF;1067701]If you were the DA, would you want to get in the middle of this?

    No way in hell. IF the DA folks there are like my friends in my local DA's office, they'd be having some serious conversations with those in command of the involved pd's over this.

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    I believe Dave Statter's site has the troopers' statements.

    I saw it on a Secret List email.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RspctFrmCalgary View Post
    I believe Dave Statter's site has the troopers' statements.

    I saw it on a Secret List email.
    All I see there is the same news article quoting the trooper's statements.

    Do you have a link tothe statements themselves?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewHampshireFF View Post
    Just who do you think it is that will ultimately determine the lawfulness of an arrest?
    Ummm. The courts. Just like it has been for about 225 years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    David Koresh thought that way.... how did it work for him?

    Not so good.
    What are you talking about. Even the majority of the people on here cannot state what makes an arrest lawful. It is the court's job to sort disputes like this out.

    David Koresh? That was a little over the top, don't you think?
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewHampshireFF View Post
    Absurd. Just who do you think it is that will ultimately determine the lawfulness of an arrest? Citizens.

    The limits of the discretion we grant police officers didn't come down from the Mount graven on stone tablets. Discretion was granted by acts of democratically elected legislatures, or by the people directly via referenda. It can be modified, and if things continue to go the way they have been, I expect to see the discretion of police officers significantly reduced. Which, IMO, would be a bad thing. Which is why I hate to see cases like this one, where a jack-off of a trooper makes things harder for everyone.

    There is a department not far from me where the standard duty uniform is now full, military-style BDUs, complete with webbing. And they have adopted attitudes to match. Some of those officers suspect we are laughing at them, and they're right. That department just had its annual budget severely "adjusted" by the voters. It seems that the people don't necesarily want their police to look and act like an occupying army.

    Cops get understandably (if overly) upset about "contempt of cop." But it is the contempt of some cops for the free citizens of this country that causes a significant amount of tension between the police and law-abiding but non-cowed citizens.

    We need to foster an atmosphere of MUTUAL respect.
    I think if one wanted to take the time to search about 12000 posts, you would find a few advocating the concept of community policing. Except for tactical officers, wearing military style uniforms, IMO, is unprofessional.

    Let me ask a serious question. How tall is their police chief?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    So, in other words, you cannot demonstrate anywhere except in your little head that I believe the Trooper was right. Despite the fact that I clearly said he was wrong. Despite the fact that I have explained myself in painfully tedious detail. Despite the fact that I have been in situations and you have not involving arrests, you will continue to say, without basis that I believe the Trooper was right.

    You called me out on this, pal. You thought you would get a cute little dig in, that everyone would jump to support you and that you would get a rise out of me. Well, you got no support and your opinion is so clearly wrong and based on absolute fabrications that it is not even worth getting a rise out of me.

    You're right. You don't know me. But I think we have learned an awful lot about you.
    This is the reason I come on here less and less...
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    What are you talking about. Even the majority of the people on here cannot state what makes an arrest lawful. It is the court's job to sort disputes like this out.

    David Koresh? That was a little over the top, don't you think?
    Yea, David Koresh is over the top, that's why it's a joke.

    Sorry ya didn't get it. It pains me to put a sarcastic or smiley thing in my posts. I do it, but it's so... cheesy.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewHampshireFF View Post
    All I see there is the same news article quoting the trooper's statements.

    Do you have a link tothe statements themselves?

    http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/...perscuffle.pdf

    Trooper Iker mentions that he felt the dash camera was not needed so
    he shut it off??????

    OMG.

    Trooper Martin makes no comment about his camera, at least I did not see it.

    Shut it off?

    Any properly installed law enforcement dashcam comes on automatically upon activation of the emergency lights. No one shuts it off because they think they won't need it. I will call utter BS on this one.

    The question remains, did trooper Martin have or not have a dash camera, and did he "turn it off"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Ummm. The courts. Just like it has been for about 225 years.
    And they will do so by interpreting and applying these things called, ummmm, laws. Which will be created, directly or indirectly, by the citizens, just as they have been for about 225 years.

    Also, the question of whether an officer's actions are within bounds will at least occasionally be a question of fact, rather than law. In which case, the determination will be made by the trier of fact, which is often a jury (of citizens).

    Not a lawyer and don't play one on TV, but I'm a fairly well informed citizen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/...perscuffle.pdf

    Trooper Iker mentions that he felt the dash camera was not needed so
    he shut it off??????

    OMG.

    Trooper Martin makes no comment about his camera, at least I did not see it.

    Shut it off?

    Any properly installed law enforcement dashcam comes on automatically upon activation of the emergency lights. No one shuts it off because they think they won't need it. I will call utter BS on this one.

    The question remains, did trooper Martin have or not have a dash camera, and did he "turn it off"?
    I read the troopers report:

    The statements along with his "opinions" on patient care scream "COVER OUR ***, COVER OUR ***....DRAW ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE REAL ISSUE".

    "I used an aggressive tone of voice"? etc? He released the medic cuz of his concerns to the ems needs of the residents of the county? come on.....what a DH.

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    Right or wrong that is not my determination. That's for the power that be.
    But with that said, I believe the trooper made the initial mistake. If it was such an issue and he had any sort of professionalism, he would have waited for that rig to complete the patient care and transport. Then argue or make his case on what he felt was the indiscretion.
    He initiated the problem.
    He escalated the problem.
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    After reading the reports (even the one from the police that had the right side of the page cut off). I have come to several personal conclusions:
    1. The driver of the ambulance failed to yield (for whatever reason)
    2. The Paramedic resisted arrest (the first time, prior to the camera rolling)
    3. The Paramedic resisted arrest the second time (after the camera was rolling)
    4. If this same scenario of resisting arrest were to have involved anyone besides a paramedic the person would have probably been thrown to the ground and tazed (that's what I'd have done), but this is speculation on my part.
    5. Everyone got carried away and things should never have gotten to where they did.

    Quotes:

    From Driver’s Report:
    • I did not see this unit approach...(speaking of the trooper)
    In my opinion the driver’s report sucks. There is no real information there. I was asked to write a police report for a call I went on and it turned out to be several pages long for something that only took a couple of minutes in real time.

    From the Medics Report:
    • ..after a brief struggle…(sounds like resisting arrest to me).
    • When officer 606 was again unable to maneuver my right arm behind my back…(resisting arrest again).

    From Trooper Iker Report:
    • Martin related to the Medic…that he [missing] under arrest. (By my inference 606 was placing the medic under arrest and he would be physically taken into custody at the hospital.
    • Martin and White became involved in a physical altercation. (resisting arrest).
    • I related to Martin and White we should sort [missing] at the hospital.

    From the Police Officer 606 Report:
    • I observed the ambulance [missing] have any emergency equipment activated and was travelling approximat[missing] speed limit. The ambulance continued west , failing to yield… (failure to yeild)
    • Mr White continued to obstruct my [missing] continuing to position himself between me and the driver, not allowing [missing] talk to Mr. Franks. (obstructing the officer)
    • I attempt[missing] take Mr. White into custody but he flexed his arms up to his chest preve[missing] me from having control of his arm to place him in handcuffs (sounds like resisting arrest).
    • We quickly became involved in another altercation after Mr White to[missing] of my left arm. (resisting arrest)
    • Mr White was against the ambulance and maintained his hold on me. (sounds like resisting arrest).


    If this were to happen again, I would hope people would be able to keep their heads. As it looks to me the medic blew the whole thing out of proportion. If he had just let the driver deal with this they probably would have gotten back on the road within a short period of time. Yes, the police officer got upset. Understandably so. You don’t get in a police officers face and argue. White had no business getting involved in the way he did.

    We're all on the same team people. Can't we act like it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewHampshireFF View Post
    And they will do so by interpreting and applying these things called, ummmm, laws. Which will be created, directly or indirectly, by the citizens, just as they have been for about 225 years.

    Also, the question of whether an officer's actions are within bounds will at least occasionally be a question of fact, rather than law. In which case, the determination will be made by the trier of fact, which is often a jury (of citizens).

    Not a lawyer and don't play one on TV, but I'm a fairly well informed citizen.
    And a judge, jury, attorney, legislator or whoever else you want to lay this on will NOT be on the street at 3 AM when the meth maggot decides to resist because he is of the opinion that it is unlawful to arrest someone for exercising their right to free enterprise by distribution of meth.

    Thanks for making my point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanWert View Post
    After reading the reports (even the one from the police that had the right side of the page cut off). I have come to several personal conclusions:
    1. The driver of the ambulance failed to yield (for whatever reason)
    2. The Paramedic resisted arrest (the first time, prior to the camera rolling)
    3. The Paramedic resisted arrest the second time (after the camera was rolling)
    4. If this same scenario of resisting arrest were to have involved anyone besides a paramedic the person would have probably been thrown to the ground and tazed (that's what I'd have done), but this is speculation on my part.
    5. Everyone got carried away and things should never have gotten to where they did.

    Quotes:

    From Driver’s Report:
    • I did not see this unit approach...(speaking of the trooper)
    In my opinion the driver’s report sucks. There is no real information there. I was asked to write a police report for a call I went on and it turned out to be several pages long for something that only took a couple of minutes in real time.

    From the Medics Report:
    • ..after a brief struggle…(sounds like resisting arrest to me).
    • When officer 606 was again unable to maneuver my right arm behind my back…(resisting arrest again).

    From Trooper Iker Report:
    • Martin related to the Medic…that he [missing] under arrest. (By my inference 606 was placing the medic under arrest and he would be physically taken into custody at the hospital.
    • Martin and White became involved in a physical altercation. (resisting arrest).
    • I related to Martin and White we should sort [missing] at the hospital.

    From the Police Officer 606 Report:
    • I observed the ambulance [missing] have any emergency equipment activated and was travelling approximat[missing] speed limit. The ambulance continued west , failing to yield… (failure to yeild)
    • Mr White continued to obstruct my [missing] continuing to position himself between me and the driver, not allowing [missing] talk to Mr. Franks. (obstructing the officer)
    • I attempt[missing] take Mr. White into custody but he flexed his arms up to his chest preve[missing] me from having control of his arm to place him in handcuffs (sounds like resisting arrest).
    • We quickly became involved in another altercation after Mr White to[missing] of my left arm. (resisting arrest)
    • Mr White was against the ambulance and maintained his hold on me. (sounds like resisting arrest).


    If this were to happen again, I would hope people would be able to keep their heads. As it looks to me the medic blew the whole thing out of proportion. If he had just let the driver deal with this they probably would have gotten back on the road within a short period of time. Yes, the police officer got upset. Understandably so. You don’t get in a police officers face and argue. White had no business getting involved in the way he did.

    We're all on the same team people. Can't we act like it?
    After reading the reports, my opinion hasn't changed much. Aside from the above, which I mostly agree with;

    * There was an awful lot of this incident that was not on tape.

    * Aside from resisting, the Medic hindered and he should be charged with that. THAT is what escalated this incident.

    * The Trooper is screwed internally.

    * I never heard of any cop shutting off his dash cam in a situation like that. There is only one reason he would shut it off; because he knew it was bad.

    * ALL of the reports were self serving.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    And a judge, jury, attorney, legislator or whoever else you want to lay this on will NOT be on the street at 3 AM when the meth maggot decides to resist because he is of the opinion that it is unlawful to arrest someone for exercising their right to free enterprise by distribution of meth.

    Thanks for making my point.
    If that maggot is wrong, he will go to jail.

    If that maggot is not wrong, he will not.

    If Oklahoma highway patrolmen continue to pull over ambualances for failing to yield to a cruiser, legislation will be passed stipultating that ambulances need not yield to a cruiser.

    If Oklahoma highway patrolmen are caught on camera applying sloppy chokeholds, that behaviour will be criminalized.

    If discretion is abused, discretion will be taken away. And then police will be less effective, and we will all pay the price.

    So someone at OHP should tear this angry child a new one. Not for "unarresting" the medic. But for being a ******, embarassing his agency, and jeopardizing the relationship between law enforcement and the citizenry in that county.

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