Okla. Troopers

[LVFD301]

They have released the name of the second trooper now. B. Iker. B. Iker is listed in 2005 as being a board member of the Hughes County EMS board. Hughes County is also where trooper Iker is located out of.

One and the same?

That would be an interesting twist.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

could you be more arrogant? you must have absolutely no friends to come on here and be an internet bully. I tended to ignore most of what you said, which was why I must have missed that it was posted below on of your posts.

I was going to stay out of this, because it's pretty obvious who was in the wrong here. even though some people refuse to see the obvious

I think the Trooper should be arrested and charged with interfering with a paramedic treating his patient. He should be fired. He should be made an example. and the family should sue him and the department for potential causing harm to the patient by delaying transport to definitive medical care. I'm sure Norm would hire him for his consulting firm, because he thinks the only thing the trooper did wrong was not finish arresting the medic. After all, like Norm, he's an infallible cop

Most of the posters on officer.com think the cop was out of line, firehouse.com's posters think the cop was out of line, even the experts referenced in http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/...vestatter.html, which is a well known public safety reporter's blog, say the trooper was wrong. not to mention the family who just wanted the ambulance to treat the patient. but of course, our resident harebrain will gladly stand proud saying the cop is always right, and the medic should be in jail following the obviously legit arrest.

of course, this whole situation could have been avoided if the cop had acted like an mature professional, and met the crew at the hospital after the patient was transferred to the ER staff. But since cops never make mistakes (according to a certain former cop), that is just an absurd idea

Coming from the poster with the history of being the most anti-cop person on these forums, this garbage does not surprise me.

First of all, if you are taking a poll as to who thinks the Troopers were wrong, add me to that list. I have posted such a bunch of times here. But that would require reading and that has never been your strong suit.

And you are another big-mouth who tries to spread the propaganda that I believe that all LEO's are infallible. Well, genius, if you had bothered to read the thread about the LEO dressing as FF to execute warrants, you would have read that I thought the police were 100% wrong. If you had read the thread involving the assault case involving an officer who kicked a surrendered suspect in the head, you would have seen where I said the cop was 100% wrong. Those are just two examples. There are more.

But those examples would not satisfy your utter hatred of LEO's. It must suck that a cop stole your girlfriend or something.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

BTW, we're still waiting for big mouth Marcus to show us his evidence.

[ChiefKN]

BTW, we're still waiting for big mouth Marcus to show us his evidence.

Gross, I don't want to see his "evidence".

[ScareCrow57]

Here is more on (or is it moron) this story:

Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper cites gesture in report on scuffle

[quote]A perceived obscene finger gesture apparently sparked a May 24 confrontation and scuffle between a state trooper and paramedic in Okfuskee County. ...[quote]. Rather thin skinned trooper I would say. Somebody flipped you the bird. Big Deal, be a bigger man and blow it off. What a dope

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I guess the newspapers in OK are not that sharp. If the OHP released the reports, why didn't they publish links to them? It will probably happen later today, I guess.

Now that we have heard from the parties involved, my opinion is that everybody except the patient was dead wrong.

DRIVER-wrong for not paying attention to traffic behind him. He was also wrong for giving the middle finger to the Trooper (you know he did).

TROOPER: Wrong for over reacting to a virtually meaningless gesture. Wrong for pulling the bus over before it reached the hospital for a minor violation. Of course, he may have been confused by the fact that the bus was not running hot, but as soon as he realized they had a pt., they should have been permitted to continue to the hospital. The gesture would have required a summons; something that could have been written at the hospital.

Trooper was also wrong for placing the other Medic under arrest, and then not following proper procedure.

OTHER MEDIC: Wrong for leaving the bus. If pt. care was his primary function (and it was), by leaving the bus to engage the trooper, he essentially abandoned the pt. He was wrong for interfering with the Trooper who was acting in an official capacity. I am fairly certain this medic (who wrote a very self-serving report) is responsible for escalating the situation.

He was also wrong for resisting arrest. You don't resist or fight the police. You just don't do it. As has been pointed out, if you are not guilty, you take the arrest and deal with it later. And remember, he had already abandoned the pt.

OTHER TROOPER: He was wrong for not removing his partner from the situation and trying to de-escalate the situation. It is conflict resolution 101 to seperate the parties and let cooler heads prevail. This responsibility is doubled if it is accurate that this Trooper has an EMS background.

Bottom line is that this incident is an embarrasment to both agencies. It will remain an embarrasment for a long time, in the timeless land of YouTube.

[LVFD301]

Now that we have heard from the parties involved, my opinion is that everybody except the patient was dead wrong.

Probably so, but...

DRIVER-wrong for not paying attention to traffic behind him. He was also wrong for giving the middle finger to the Trooper (you know he did).

I still don't know that he did, and if he did, so what?

Case law across the country says so what. Court cases on troopers
being flipped off across the country are thrown out - state supreme courts have told officers NOT to write for the simple act of being flipped off. Its
a BS trash ticket, obiously as the trooper wrote a warning for failure to yield
and not for anything about the bird.

TROOPER: Wrong for over reacting to a virtually meaningless gesture. Wrong for pulling the bus over before it reached the hospital for a minor violation. Of course, he may have been confused by the fact that the bus was not running hot, but as soon as he realized they had a pt., they should have been permitted to continue to the hospital. The gesture would have required a summons; something that could have been written at the hospital.

Trooper was also wrong for placing the other Medic under arrest, and then not following proper procedure.

While we agree he over reacted, it should not, and did not get a summons.

OTHER MEDIC: Wrong for leaving the bus. If pt. care was his primary function (and it was), by leaving the bus to engage the trooper, he essentially abandoned the pt. He was wrong for interfering with the Trooper who was acting in an official capacity. I am fairly certain this medic (who wrote a very self-serving report) is responsible for escalating the situation.

He was also wrong for resisting arrest. You don't resist or fight the police. You just don't do it. As has been pointed out, if you are not guilty, you take the arrest and deal with it later. And remember, he had already abandoned the pt.

And it does appear he may have in the letter of the law abandoned that patient. I again wish we could see the dash cam.


[QUOTE=GeorgeWendtCFI;1067593]
Bottom line is that this incident is an embarrasment to both agencies. It will remain an embarrasment for a long time, in the timeless land of YouTube.[/[QUOTE=GeorgeWendtCFI;1067593]]

Amen.

[NewHampshireFF]

John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529.

“Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed.”

While an old case, Bad Elk is good law.

It is simply not true that a citizen has no right to resist an unlawful arrest, nor is it true that a citizen must presume any arrest to be lawful.

That said, you better be sure that arrest is unlawful before you resist. And since a significant part of what makes an arrest lawful or not is what the officer reasonably believed, you may have a very tough time proving your case.

This trooper apparently stated he was considering using deadly force. I'm rather surprised no one has made more of that fact.

Bottom line: This guy is too hotheaded and immature to be entrusted with the great amount of discretion we give to our law enforcement officers.

[NewHampshireFF]

You guys need to brush up on the definition of abandonment.

[LVFD301]

You guys need to brush up on the definition of abandonment.

Maybe so. Help me out ....

I did find this.

Seems to me its one of those questions that can be debated until case law
is formed.

http://www.jems.com/news_and_article...andonment.html

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

That said, you better be sure that arrest is unlawful before you resist. And since a significant part of what makes an arrest lawful or not is what the officer reasonably believed, you may have a very tough time proving your case.

The arrest is lawful if;

1. The officer is acting within the scope of his duties. (In this case, the Trooper was on duty, in uniform and was reacting to a situation wherin he believed a motor vehicle and/or a disorderly persons offense took place).

2. The officer has reasonable suspicion to believe that an offense took place. (In this case, he had reasonable suspicion to believe that the medic was obstructing the officer from performing his duties. It happened in the officer's presence. It is called an "on-view" arrest).

3. Only the force necessary to overcome the resistance was used. (The force escalated as the medic resisted).

4. Guilt or innocence is not a factor in determining whether the arrest is lawful (that is demonstrated above in the OK law cited).

The cases of unlawful arrest are extremely rare. As I have now said about 10 times, I never arrested someone who didn't believe the arrest was unlawful. That bar is exrtremely high. I would not recommend that a person decide to resist with the intention of trying to claim later that the arrest is unlawful. It will most likely be unsucessful.

This trooper apparently stated he was considering using deadly force. I'm rather surprised no one has made more of that fact.

This is anecdotal at best. No source was attributed to it when it was mentioned. I would quesiton its accuracy. I am glad no one has mentioned it because it sounds bogus to me.

[BoxAlarm187]

DRIVER-wrong for not paying attention to traffic behind him. He was also wrong for giving the middle finger to the Trooper (you know he did).

First, and I mean this sincerely, I'm suprised that you would assume that the driver did give the troop the middle finger. You've always told us not to assume anything about law enforcement activities, I don't understand why you'd make a blanket statement like "you know he did." Actually, no, I don't know that he did.

I follow this case closely, as many years ago I had a trooper give me a hard time for not immediately yielding to him (I was in an ambulance returning to the station from the hospital) when he came from behind at 100+ MPH with lights and no siren. He was enroute to re-construct an accident where law enforcement had been on scene for an hour or more. I reminded him that when he was traveling 146FPS, that didn't give a lot of reaction time to the traffic in front of him, nor did I think he was being safe by tailgating me until I merged into the adjancent lane. We agreed to disagree. Still irks me, though.

OTHER MEDIC: Wrong for leaving the bus. If pt. care was his primary function (and it was), by leaving the bus to engage the trooper, he essentially abandoned the pt.

Does this mean that if we're treating a stable patient in thier home with a 2-person crew, and my partner needs me to help him move the stretcher up the stairs, I can't do it because I would have "abandoned" the patient? The term abondonment is, in my opinion, grossly misunderstood.

And remember, he had already abandoned the pt.

See above.

OTHER TROOPER: He was wrong for not removing his partner from the situation and trying to de-escalate the situation. It is conflict resolution 101 to seperate the parties and let cooler heads prevail. This responsibility is doubled if it is accurate that this Trooper has an EMS background.

For me, it was punctuated that the second trooper was trying to do what he could to help the situation, as he can be seen patting the patient's husband on the back as they walk away at the end of the video. I have no doubt that he either verbally, or through body language, tried to calm the first trooper down.

Bottom line is that this incident is an embarrasment to both agencies. It will remain an embarrasment for a long time, in the timeless land of YouTube.

Agreed.

[NewHampshireFF]

Maybe so. Help me out ....

I did find this.

Seems to me its one of those questions that can be debated until case law
is formed.

http://www.jems.com/news_and_article...andonment.html

How is stepping away from a patient in order to facilitate that patient's continued transport termination of care?

[NewHampshireFF]

The arrest is lawful if;

1. The officer is acting within the scope of his duties. (In this case, the Trooper was on duty, in uniform and was reacting to a situation wherin he believed a motor vehicle and/or a disorderly persons offense took place).

2. The officer has reasonable suspicion to believe that an offense took place. (In this case, he had reasonable suspicion to believe that the medic was obstructing the officer from performing his duties. It happened in the officer's presence. It is called an "on-view" arrest).

3. Only the force necessary to overcome the resistance was used. (The force escalated as the medic resisted).

4. Guilt or innocence is not a factor in determining whether the arrest is lawful (that is demonstrated above in the OK law cited).

The cases of unlawful arrest are extremely rare. As I have now said about 10 times, I never arrested someone who didn't believe the arrest was unlawful. That bar is exrtremely high. I would not recommend that a person decide to resist with the intention of trying to claim later that the arrest is unlawful. It will most likely be unsucessful.

I don't dispute any of that. But there is a non-trivial difference between stating that this arrest was lawful and threfore the medic had no right to resist and stating that citizens have no right to resist an unlawful arrest, and need to wait for the courts to sort it out.

This was probably a lawful arrest. That doesn't change the fact that the reason this event happened is that a young trooper was unable to control his temper.

[NewHampshireFF]

A statement from an uninvolved bystander:

To Whom It May Concern:
On Sunday, May 24th, 2009, my cousin and I were coming back from the Paden Cemetery and came to Main Street. Before we got to the stop sign at 62 highway and Main Street, we saw an ambulance pass and as we got to the stop sign, we say a highway patrol pass. We turned on highway 62 going west and we saw the ambulance pulled over in front of the bank and the patrol car behind it. The officer was standing in our lane of 62 highway talking to the driver and we could not pass since they were in our lane. The other EMT was in the ambulance with the patient. He opened the door and was trying to talk to the officer. The officer then came around the ambulance shouting, “I’ll arrest you for obstruction of justice”, and the EMT stated, “Hey Man, we need to get her to the hospital, follow us there.” By this time the lady in the ambulance family were running to see about her, and the husband was pleading with the officer to get his wife to the hospital. The officer would not pay attention to them. He, the officer kept yelling at the EMT that he was going to arrest him and then the officer pushed the EMT against the ambulance and was going to handcuff him. The EMT Never tried to strike the patrolman, he kept his hands up as if protecting his face. Then the patrolman got the EMT in a head lock. We were horrified by the patrolman’s behavior. He have NO thought to the poor woman in the ambulance or her family. As the patrolman was trying to handcuff the EMT, another highway patrolman came up and began to try to calm the situation down and in our opinion the first highway patrolman acted very unprofessionally. The EMT’s were trying to do their jobs, and he was keeping them from getting that poor lady to the hospital. He was flat rude and hateful to the family. We felt both EMTs tried very hard to remain professional and wanted their patient to be cared for. That first highway patrolman should be ashamed of himself. The time wasted on his actions could have been the time that meant life or death for that lady. In our eyes, the EMTs did nothing wrong and were treated very badly. He should have to publicly apologize especially to the lady and the family as well as the EMTs who were only trying to do their jobs.
Sincerly,
Diana Walkup
Peggy


It seems clear that the second trooper DID try to calm the situation down, so I'm not sure he can really be criticised.

On the other hand, this statement definately calls the whole, "He assaulted me before the tape started running" meme into question.

And if in fact the second medic didn't at first leave the truck, and the trooper "came around the ambulance shouting" than he is even more out-of-line. Shouting from a distance away is not obstruction.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Case law across the country says so what. Court cases on troopers
being flipped off across the country are thrown out - state supreme courts have told officers NOT to write for the simple act of being flipped off. Its
a BS trash ticket, obiously as the trooper wrote a warning for failure to yield
and not for anything about the bird.

You will note, of course, that I clearly stated that I believed the Trooper to be wrong to react to that situation.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I'm suprised that you would assume that the driver did give the troop the middle finger.

I guess this comes from my life experience, which may differ from yours. In the NYC Metro area, seeing (and sometimes using) this gesture is a regular occurrence.

When I visit relatives in Roanoke, I am continually counseled by my brother-in-law "This ain't Jersey".

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

How is stepping away from a patient in order to facilitate that patient's continued transport termination of care?

He didn't "step away".

He exited the bus, slammed the door and engaged the trooper in a dispute. Disagree with me, but don't mischaracterize what actually occurred.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

stating that citizens have no right to resist an unlawful arrest

Can you show mw where I stated this?

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

A statement from an uninvolved bystander:

To Whom It May Concern:
On Sunday, May 24th, 2009, my cousin and I were coming back from the Paden Cemetery and came to Main Street. Before we got to the stop sign at 62 highway and Main Street, we saw an ambulance pass and as we got to the stop sign, we say a highway patrol pass. We turned on highway 62 going west and we saw the ambulance pulled over in front of the bank and the patrol car behind it. The officer was standing in our lane of 62 highway talking to the driver and we could not pass since they were in our lane. The other EMT was in the ambulance with the patient. He opened the door and was trying to talk to the officer. The officer then came around the ambulance shouting, “I’ll arrest you for obstruction of justice”, and the EMT stated, “Hey Man, we need to get her to the hospital, follow us there.” By this time the lady in the ambulance family were running to see about her, and the husband was pleading with the officer to get his wife to the hospital. The officer would not pay attention to them. He, the officer kept yelling at the EMT that he was going to arrest him and then the officer pushed the EMT against the ambulance and was going to handcuff him. The EMT Never tried to strike the patrolman, he kept his hands up as if protecting his face. Then the patrolman got the EMT in a head lock. We were horrified by the patrolman’s behavior. He have NO thought to the poor woman in the ambulance or her family. As the patrolman was trying to handcuff the EMT, another highway patrolman came up and began to try to calm the situation down and in our opinion the first highway patrolman acted very unprofessionally. The EMT’s were trying to do their jobs, and he was keeping them from getting that poor lady to the hospital. He was flat rude and hateful to the family. We felt both EMTs tried very hard to remain professional and wanted their patient to be cared for. That first highway patrolman should be ashamed of himself. The time wasted on his actions could have been the time that meant life or death for that lady. In our eyes, the EMTs did nothing wrong and were treated very badly. He should have to publicly apologize especially to the lady and the family as well as the EMTs who were only trying to do their jobs.
Sincerly,
Diana Walkup
Peggy


It seems clear that the second trooper DID try to calm the situation down, so I'm not sure he can really be criticised.

On the other hand, this statement definately calls the whole, "He assaulted me before the tape started running" meme into question.

And if in fact the second medic didn't at first leave the truck, and the trooper "came around the ambulance shouting" than he is even more out-of-line. Shouting from a distance away is not obstruction.

The statement is contradicted in a couple of places by what we see on thre tape. It is also contradicted by what is in the official reports of both sides.

And, again for the record, I never defended the Trooper in initiating this action. He was clearly out of control.