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Thread: Okla. Troopers

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Can you show mw where I stated this?
    "Once a citizen is placed under arrest, they are legally required to submit to the arrest. They are not permitted to resist or physically assault the officer. The question of whether the arrest is lawful will be dealt with later. The question of guilt will be dealt with later. That medic had a legal responsibility to submit to the arrest."

    Sound familiar?


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    I might be misunderstanding this, but do your laws allow a police officer unfettered right to make an arrest using only his perception or judgement? Seems to me this could certainly be abused. Up here, the officer has to have " probable cause" to even stop a vehicle and a fingering is not probable cause. Here, if this happened, the officer would not have probable cause to stop the ambulance so anything that came after would be from the result of an improper act by the trooper in the first place. God knows, we've sure had our share of bad apple police actions up here in the last while so I'm not playing holier than thou. Probably a pretty good chance that there will be a lawsuit out of this, particularly from the family involved.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Here is more on (or is it moron) this story:

    Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper cites gesture in report on scuffle
    We still don't have the cops story. This is a story ABOUT the cops story. Not the same thing. It's technically hearsay. Yes, it's a news story, but there are no direct quotes. I still want to see the police report.
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    DRIVER-wrong for not paying attention to traffic behind him. He was also wrong for giving the middle finger to the Trooper (you know he did).

    Wrong???absolutely. illegal and warrants an arrest? doubt it. where is it illegal to flip the bird to anyone?


    emt in rig wrong for "abdoning pt"? I thought the trooper ordered him out of the rig cuz he was under arrest? if he didnt come out what would the trooper have done? called in SWAT?

    This is all ridiculous. Nothing good for any of the agencies involved will come out of this.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewHampshireFF View Post
    "Once a citizen is placed under arrest, they are legally required to submit to the arrest. They are not permitted to resist or physically assault the officer. The question of whether the arrest is lawful will be dealt with later. The question of guilt will be dealt with later. That medic had a legal responsibility to submit to the arrest."

    Sound familiar?
    Yes. But I don't see where I said that an unlawful arrest had to be tolerated. Seems to me you are splitting hairs.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    I might be misunderstanding this, but do your laws allow a police officer unfettered right to make an arrest using only his perception or judgement?
    Don't confuse "making an arrest" with stopping the vehicle. Regardless, no, the police officer must have reasonable suspicion, not probable cause, to stop a violator. The trooper could articulate that the RS to stop the vehicle was the driver's failure to yield, and the "attempted" arrest of the medic was subsequent to the traffic stop.

    This isn't really the time to get into the discussion of a LEO witnessing an illegal act (or possession of illegal material) secondary to an illegal stop.
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    I guess as of yesterday, there has been no action from The DA's office on this matter. Was it possible for them to see this case for what is really is?

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Yes. But I don't see where I said that an unlawful arrest had to be tolerated. Seems to me you are splitting hairs.
    The word is "resisted", not "tolerated."

    Citizens have the right to RESIST unlawful arrest, with force up to and including deadly force.

    You stated, in as many words, that citizens have no right to resist arrest, and that the lawfulness of that arrest will be determined later. That is simply not correct, and it is not splitting hairs to point that out.

    If that arrest was unlawful (and I agree that is probably was not) than the medic committed no crime by resisting. Period, full stop, end of story.
    Last edited by NewHampshireFF; 06-02-2009 at 02:15 PM.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    BTW, we're still waiting for big mouth Marcus to show us his evidence.
    "We" are waiting, or "You" are waiting.

    I call it as I see it. You have stated that you believe the trooper was wrong, and always followed it with a "But..."

    You only narrowly admit a mistake on his part, but like to point out that for whatever misguided reason he wanted to arrest the medic, it is the medics fault the situation escalated.

    The way I read your posts on this topic my OPINION is that you think the cop is more right than wrong.

    Evidence? What evidence? Is this a court trial? The case of Marcus vs. George? I told you what I thought about your posts, if you don't agree, then you don't agree, end of story.

    The biggest problem with these boards over the last 6 months has been the fact that we cannot have a disagreement without it becoming a personal mission to find out who has a bigger penis.

    George, if we were sitting at the firehouse together I would have simply told you that I feel even though you are critical of the cops specific actions, your statements feel like you don't believe the cop was wrong for attempting to arrest the patient. And then we would have talked about it. But on here it becomes a case of quoting, requoting, then someone quotes someone again and changes their screenname to Idiotboy (not you George), and it becomes less about the actual topic and more about personal attacks and vendettas.

    I will repeat the thought of my original post:

    I feel even though you are critical of the cops specific actions, your statements feel like you don't believe the cop was wrong for attempting to arrest the medic.

    Once again, that is my opinion, and I'm not going to spend the next 45 minutes quoting you and explaining to you why I take your posts that way. Just because I feel that you are backing the cop here, does not mean that I think you are a ****ty person. It does not mean that I think any less or any more of you, for pete's sake I don't have an f-ing clue who you are and what you are like. I don't know why you are taking this as a personal attack.
    Last edited by MarcusKspn; 06-02-2009 at 02:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedic20 View Post
    I guess as of yesterday, there has been no action from The DA's office on this matter. Was it possible for them to see this case for what is really is?
    If you were the DA, would you want to get in the middle of this?

    While I personally doubt there is a racial issue here, it wouldn't surprise me if this were part of a larger jurisdictional p1$$ing match. I note that the medics were employed by the Creek Nation. If the OHP gets along with the Creeks as well as the Connecticut State Police get along with the Pequots, it's a wonder there wasn't gunplay.*

    * Obviously, this is pure idle speculation. Don't bother pointing that out.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    "We" are waiting, or "You" are waiting.

    I call it as I see it. You have stated that you believe the trooper was wrong, and always followed it with a "But..."

    You only narrowly admit a mistake on his part, but like to point out that for whatever misguided reason he wanted to arrest the medic, it is the medics fault the situation escalated.

    The way I read your posts on this topic my OPINION is that you think the cop is more right than wrong.

    Evidence? What evidence? Is this a court trial? The case of Marcus vs. George? I told you what I thought about your posts, if you don't agree, then you don't agree, end of story.

    The biggest problem with these boards over the last 6 months has been the fact that we cannot have a disagreement without it becoming a personal mission to find out who has a bigger penis.

    George, if we were sitting at the firehouse together I would have simply told you that I feel even though you are critical of the cops specific actions, your statements feel like you don't believe the cop was wrong for attempting to arrest the patient. And then we would have talked about it. But on here it becomes a case of quoting, requoting, then someone quotes someone again and changes their screenname to Idiotboy (not you George), and it becomes less about the actual topic and more about personal attacks and vendettas.

    I will repeat the thought of my original post:

    I feel even though you are critical of the cops specific actions, your statements feel like you don't believe the cop was wrong for attempting to arrest the medic.

    Once again, that is my opinion, and I'm not going to spend the next 45 minutes quoting you and explaining to you why I take your posts that way. Just because I feel that you are backing the cop here, does not mean that I think you are a ****ty person. It does not mean that I think any less or any more of you, for pete's sake I don't have an f-ing clue who you are and what you are like. I don't know why you are taking this as a personal attack.
    So, in other words, you cannot demonstrate anywhere except in your little head that I believe the Trooper was right. Despite the fact that I clearly said he was wrong. Despite the fact that I have explained myself in painfully tedious detail. Despite the fact that I have been in situations and you have not involving arrests, you will continue to say, without basis that I believe the Trooper was right.

    You called me out on this, pal. You thought you would get a cute little dig in, that everyone would jump to support you and that you would get a rise out of me. Well, you got no support and your opinion is so clearly wrong and based on absolute fabrications that it is not even worth getting a rise out of me.

    You're right. You don't know me. But I think we have learned an awful lot about you.
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewHampshireFF View Post
    The word is "resisted", not "tolerated."

    Citizens have the right to RESIST unlawful arrest, with force up to and including deadly force.

    You stated, in as many words, that citizens have no right to resist arrest, and that the lawfulness of that arrest will be determined later. That is simply not correct, and it is not splitting hairs to point that out.

    If that arrest was unlawful (and I agree that is probably was not) than the medic committed no crime by resisting. Period, full stop, end of story.
    I think the key to this is my use of the wording "dealt with later". OF course it will be dealt with later. When else would it be dealt with? There is no referee that will come out to arbitrate the disagreement.

    In 99.999999999999999999999999999 99999% of the cases, it is not possible for a citizen to determine the lawfulness of the arrest on the street.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post

    In 99.999999999999999999999999999 99999% of the cases, it is not possible for a citizen to determine the lawfulness of the arrest on the street.
    Absurd. Just who do you think it is that will ultimately determine the lawfulness of an arrest? Citizens.

    The limits of the discretion we grant police officers didn't come down from the Mount graven on stone tablets. Discretion was granted by acts of democratically elected legislatures, or by the people directly via referenda. It can be modified, and if things continue to go the way they have been, I expect to see the discretion of police officers significantly reduced. Which, IMO, would be a bad thing. Which is why I hate to see cases like this one, where a jack-off of a trooper makes things harder for everyone.

    There is a department not far from me where the standard duty uniform is now full, military-style BDUs, complete with webbing. And they have adopted attitudes to match. Some of those officers suspect we are laughing at them, and they're right. That department just had its annual budget severely "adjusted" by the voters. It seems that the people don't necesarily want their police to look and act like an occupying army.

    Cops get understandably (if overly) upset about "contempt of cop." But it is the contempt of some cops for the free citizens of this country that causes a significant amount of tension between the police and law-abiding but non-cowed citizens.

    We need to foster an atmosphere of MUTUAL respect.
    Last edited by NewHampshireFF; 06-02-2009 at 03:05 PM.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    In99.9999999999999999999999999 9999999% of the cases, it is not possible for a citizen to determine the lawfulness of the arrest on the street.
    David Koresh thought that way.... how did it work for him?

    Not so good.
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    [QUOTE=NewHampshireFF;1067701]If you were the DA, would you want to get in the middle of this?

    No way in hell. IF the DA folks there are like my friends in my local DA's office, they'd be having some serious conversations with those in command of the involved pd's over this.

  16. #136
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    I believe Dave Statter's site has the troopers' statements.

    I saw it on a Secret List email.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RspctFrmCalgary View Post
    I believe Dave Statter's site has the troopers' statements.

    I saw it on a Secret List email.
    All I see there is the same news article quoting the trooper's statements.

    Do you have a link tothe statements themselves?

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewHampshireFF View Post
    Just who do you think it is that will ultimately determine the lawfulness of an arrest?
    Ummm. The courts. Just like it has been for about 225 years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    David Koresh thought that way.... how did it work for him?

    Not so good.
    What are you talking about. Even the majority of the people on here cannot state what makes an arrest lawful. It is the court's job to sort disputes like this out.

    David Koresh? That was a little over the top, don't you think?
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewHampshireFF View Post
    Absurd. Just who do you think it is that will ultimately determine the lawfulness of an arrest? Citizens.

    The limits of the discretion we grant police officers didn't come down from the Mount graven on stone tablets. Discretion was granted by acts of democratically elected legislatures, or by the people directly via referenda. It can be modified, and if things continue to go the way they have been, I expect to see the discretion of police officers significantly reduced. Which, IMO, would be a bad thing. Which is why I hate to see cases like this one, where a jack-off of a trooper makes things harder for everyone.

    There is a department not far from me where the standard duty uniform is now full, military-style BDUs, complete with webbing. And they have adopted attitudes to match. Some of those officers suspect we are laughing at them, and they're right. That department just had its annual budget severely "adjusted" by the voters. It seems that the people don't necesarily want their police to look and act like an occupying army.

    Cops get understandably (if overly) upset about "contempt of cop." But it is the contempt of some cops for the free citizens of this country that causes a significant amount of tension between the police and law-abiding but non-cowed citizens.

    We need to foster an atmosphere of MUTUAL respect.
    I think if one wanted to take the time to search about 12000 posts, you would find a few advocating the concept of community policing. Except for tactical officers, wearing military style uniforms, IMO, is unprofessional.

    Let me ask a serious question. How tall is their police chief?
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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