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    This my first and only post on this Topic.I have read over all post and find that The trooper and GW have similar issues!
    Last edited by coldfront; 06-09-2009 at 10:35 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Then you should very well know that number is meaningless.

    And if you don't...don't let Cisco know you are boasting about being Cisco trained.
    Haha, why is it meaningless? I've heard of the view counts being frozen, but not over-estimated. Do you think someone is sitting around with millions of proxies to inflate the count?

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    http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=10499495

    OHP refuses to release dash cam video, says it is not covered by the
    open records act.

    A stench is settling on the entire affair now.

    Oklahoma Open Records Act
    Section 24A.20 - Access to Records in Possession of Public Body or Official for Investigatory Purposes.

    "Access to records which, under the Oklahoma Open Records Act, would otherwise be available for public inspection and copying, shall not be denied because a public body or public official is using or has taken possession of such records for investigatory purposes or has placed the records in a litigation or investigation file. However, a law enforcement agency may deny access to a copy of such a record in an investigative file if the record or a true and complete copy thereof is available for public inspection and copying at another public body."

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanTurner View Post
    Haha, why is it meaningless? I've heard of the view counts being frozen, but not over-estimated. Do you think someone is sitting around with millions of proxies to inflate the count?
    Could be done with a simple botnet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=10499495

    OHP refuses to release dash cam video, says it is not covered by the
    open records act.

    A stench is settling on the entire affair now.

    Oklahoma Open Records Act
    Section 24A.20 - Access to Records in Possession of Public Body or Official for Investigatory Purposes.

    "Access to records which, under the Oklahoma Open Records Act, would otherwise be available for public inspection and copying, shall not be denied because a public body or public official is using or has taken possession of such records for investigatory purposes or has placed the records in a litigation or investigation file. However, a law enforcement agency may deny access to a copy of such a record in an investigative file if the record or a true and complete copy thereof is available for public inspection and copying at another public body."
    Obviously they are trying to hide the fact that the Trooper was 100% wrong, otherwise, why not release the dash cam and vindicate him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brivette View Post
    Lets just wait and see what the outcome is, if a warrant is not issued then good.

    On a different note, something the family may want to look into along with other families. I am sure not many are aware of this site nor the information that can be obtained from it.

    http://www.nremt.org/nremt/about/checkEmtStatus.asp

    No where is Medic White listed as a NREMT but his partner is......hmmmmmmmmmmm so was any laws violated by the trooper for assaulting a medic while he performs his duties?
    He probably doesn't need to be an NREMT to practice in Ok.
    FF/Paramedic

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    What in the world would national registry (Which to many is nothing more than a money making scheme) have to do with anything in this situation?

    The medic is certified in the state of OK without a doubt, as well as CCP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coldfront View Post
    This my first and only post on this Topic.I have read over all post and find that The trooper and GW have similar issues!
    It's your only post because you are a coward.

    What issues would they be? Especially since I have stated that the Trooper was wrong.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Post counts? CNN? Please.

    There is a huge difference between seeing a story or reading a post and

    millions around the world (like me) are following it with interest
    .

    Intellectual dishonesty abounds in this thread.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brivette View Post
    Lets just wait and see what the outcome is, if a warrant is not issued then good.

    On a different note, something the family may want to look into along with other families. I am sure not many are aware of this site nor the information that can be obtained from it.

    http://www.nremt.org/nremt/about/checkEmtStatus.asp

    No where is Medic White listed as a NREMT but his partner is......hmmmmmmmmmmm so was any laws violated by the trooper for assaulting a medic while he performs his duties?
    Oklahoma seems to be a lot like Kentucky when it comes to the NREMT. We use the NREMT test and if you pass you get a patch and CERTIFICATE from the NREMT and you LICENSE from the Commonwealth of Kentucky. You only need to maintain your license and can let your certification drop if you want to. So not showing up in the NREMT database is not that big of a deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Post counts? CNN? Please.

    There is a huge difference between seeing a story or reading a post and

    .

    Intellectual dishonesty abounds in this thread.
    Point taken. While millions may have seen it, on the various outlets,
    the number of people that are actually "following" it is much less.

    People are normally interested for a fleeting moment, then it dispels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Post counts? CNN? Please.

    There is a huge difference between seeing a story or reading a post and

    .

    Intellectual dishonesty abounds in this thread.
    Trooper, EMT in shoving match
    Trooper brawls with EMT

    CNN does not give counts, but these are from their broadcasts.

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    George,

    Having never had to face a similar situation, I contemplated how I would react to the same thing happening during an emergency transport of a patient, or running a fire scene with interior crews operating.

    I'm not sure what I would have done, or how I would have reacted. After all, as a professional I take every aspect of my job to the nth degree. That being said, being placed in cuffs and hauled off while those I am charged to care for are still in danger is not something I would roll over for. Especially when it is clear to me that I have done nothing wrong.

    So my question to you:

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    And, again for the record, I never defended the Trooper in initiating this action. He was clearly out of control.
    The Trooper is not "sorta", or "kinda", or "maybe", out of control. You stated he was "clearly." At what point do I have a right to defend myself from a clearly out of control (your words) Trooper with a gun?

    Before bitch-slapping me as a cop-hater, my brother is a deputy.....and while I may joke otherwise with him, he clearly has the more dangerous job. I have nothing but respect for police officers.

    P.S. - In no way does this imply that I agree with Scarecrow in anyway.

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    You might have noted in my previous posts that I stated I only act with disrespect towards idiots. There will be no disrespect here.

    First of all, let me say that I do not believe you would ever be in this situation. While the Trooper was out of control, he didn't start out that way. From all accounts, the situation escalated when the medic in the back of the bus decided that it was more important to argue with the Trooper than it was to provide patient care. The medic escalated the situation by acting like a jerk. I can tell from the way you deal with folks here that you would not react this way.

    That said, ask yourself this question...how many times have you had personal dealings with a LEO whjo was "out of control"? I'm guessing none. That is because you do not act in a manner that will get you there. If this is the case, you will not have any reason to defend yourself.

    In a general sense, let me say two things. First, there is no reason to bring up the gun. Every single person over the age of 3 knows that all police officers carry guns. That does not make all LEO a threat. LEO's are trained more on their weapons and the use of deadly force than any other subject. They are trained in these subjects FAR MORE than any subject a FF is trained in. Hands down.

    We have discussed here before the extent to which a private citizen can "defend: themselves against an unlawful arrest. It is clear that there is no black and white answer. As I have now stated about 100 times, no one that I ever arrested thought that their arrest was lawful. Just because a person believes their imminent arrest is unlawful, does not make it so. In 99.9999999999% of the cases, the arrest is perfectly lawful.

    If a person is involved in a situation in an official capacity where a LEO is out of control, my suggesiton is not to escalate it. You won't win. The smart thing is to get on the radio and begin to document what is going on. Request supervisors-yours and his-to come to the scene. Do whatever is necessary to de-escalate.

    It would be a good idea not to assault the LEO-no matter how out of control he might be.

    Hope this answers your questions.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    While the Trooper was out of control, he didn't start out that way. From all accounts, the situation escalated when the medic in the back of the bus decided that it was more important to argue with the Trooper than it was to provide patient care. The medic escalated the situation by acting like a jerk. I can tell from the way you deal with folks here that you would not react this way.

    I think this paragraph accurately covers this entire scenario. I have never been an LEO, but we do work with them multiple times each and every shift. I have also dealt with law enforcement on a personal level, be it thru a traffic stop or an accident.

    I have yet to see any of them act "aggressively", forcefully, or in an agitated state unless it was warranted.
    Generally speaking, when respect is given in the first place, it is given back, even with some of the sh*t-heads in the city.
    The question that I have is what provoked the trooper to act in the way he did?
    During the course of my career, I have never seen law enforcement go after anyone without provocation, of some sort.

    Granted, the trooper should have had more restraint, as LEO's are always the target of anger, hatred, or provoking type of behavior, but that is part of the job. (and part of why I want no part of that career)

    The trooper didn't take the action he did just out of the blue, something happened on the part of the EMS crew to provoke the trooper; that is a fact.




    On a side note, we have two officers here who could use some positive thoughts, and prayers. About 1500 hrs local time, two MPD officers were shot in the head, in broad daylight, yesterday, while attempting to question a suspicious person. Both officers were shot before either was able to draw their weapons.
    Last edited by jasper45; 06-10-2009 at 11:01 AM.

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    http://www.fox23.com/news/local/stor...hpovzMgcQ.cspx

    OHP says they will NOT release the dashcam video, local TV station is
    appealing the decision.

    OHP has a history of releasing dash cam video, yet for some reason they
    won't release this one. Their response can only lead one to wonder why?

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    George,

    Thanks for the reply. And yes, you did answer my question.

    FG
    IACOJ.... "Carpe Elkhartem"
    (Seize the Nozzle)


    "Victorious warriors win first,
    and then go to war,
    while defeated warriors go to war first,
    and then seek to win."

    SUN TZU

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    http://www.fox23.com/news/local/stor...hpovzMgcQ.cspx

    OHP says they will NOT release the dashcam video, local TV station is
    appealing the decision.

    OHP has a history of releasing dash cam video, yet for some reason they
    won't release this one. Their response can only lead one to wonder why?
    It doesn't look good for them. I'll grant you that. Particularly since they surely know they'll have no choice but turn it over when the subpoena from the first civil suit arrives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    First of all, let me say that I do not believe you would ever be in this situation. While the Trooper was out of control, he didn't start out that way. From all accounts, the situation escalated when the medic in the back of the bus decided that it was more important to argue with the Trooper than it was to provide patient care. The medic escalated the situation by acting like a jerk. I can tell from the way you deal with folks here that you would not react this way.
    That is the crap I am talking about George. The Trooper was wrong BUT.....

    My opinion from reading your posts on this subject reminds me of a little child that got caught by his parents. "I know I did wrong, but its his fault for making me do it!"

    "Sure the trooper was an ***, but its the Medic's fault for making him act like an ***!"

    I agree with you on most everything that you post, but I also recognize that you have a chip on your shoulder here. So go ahead and bully your way through this topic, I know you will.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    It's your only post because you are a coward.

    What issues would they be? Especially since I have stated that the Trooper was wrong.

    I just lied to you all.I am going to post again on this topic.

    GW -It's always easy to see both sides of an issue we are not particularly concerned about.

    Thats my view on this topic,however reading your view on most topics always enriches my day.
    Last edited by coldfront; 06-10-2009 at 03:47 PM.
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    Default Justification anyone?

    I can't wait until our self proclaimed LE expert chimes in with, " Well the trooper was a little bit wrong but that old lady was definitely the problem here!
    A traffic stop for speeding in Travis County, Texas, led to the Tasering of a 72-year-old great-grandmother by a deputy. Feisty Kathryn Winkfein apparently so frightened the law-enforcement officer when she "used some profanity" and "got violent" that he felt it necessary to subdue her with a potentially dangerous jolt of electricity.

    Winkfein was reportedly doing 60 in a construction zone where the posted speed limit was 45 when she was pulled over. She was ticketed but declined to sign the ticket, leading the police officer to place her under arrest lest civilization collapse for want of the surrender of a penny's worth of ink.

    At this point, the stories diverge. According to Precinct 3 Constable Richard McCain, Winkfein cursed and refused to cooperate. She says nothing of the sort occurred. "I wasn't argumentative, I was not combative. This is a lie," the woman told a news reporter for Fox 7.

    Either way, it's difficult to see how the issuance of a speeding ticket to an elderly woman devolved to the point where a grown, trained law-enforcement officer could be considered justified in subjecting the speeder to an electric jolt intended to disrupt her nervous system -- no matter what command of profanity she displayed.

    Given that the speeding ticket had already been issued, it's also difficult to understand what purpose was served by prolonging the encounter and demanding a signature. A similar incident in Utah in 2007 between a state trooper and a motorist also resulted in a Tasering after the driver declined to sign a speeding ticket. In that case, the officer escalated the matter to a violent conclusion even though Utah law doesn't actually require a signature. Texas law apparently follows the same reasoning, considering the signature merely a promise to appear in court, not a necessity for the validity of the ticket itself.

    Jared Massey, the Utah motorist, was ultimately awarded $40,000 as compensation for the abuse he suffered at the hands of Trooper Jon Gardner.

    On another note, it seems like maybe, just maybe the LE trooper in Utah was also wrong, contrary to the learned opinions of our same expert!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    That is the crap I am talking about George. The Trooper was wrong BUT.....

    My opinion from reading your posts on this subject reminds me of a little child that got caught by his parents. "I know I did wrong, but its his fault for making me do it!"

    "Sure the trooper was an ***, but its the Medic's fault for making him act like an ***!"

    I agree with you on most everything that you post, but I also recognize that you have a chip on your shoulder here. So go ahead and bully your way through this topic, I know you will.
    I have no chip on my shoulder here. I have said from the beginning that the Trooper was wrong. He was wrong.

    There is no rule that says there only has to be one party who was wrong. The Medic was wrong, too. Virtually every single poster on this thread has written the same thing. Yet, you continue to single me out.

    Why?
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coldfront View Post
    I just lied to you all.I am going to post again on this topic.

    GW -It's always easy to see both sides of an issue we are not particularly concerned about.

    Thats my view on this topic,however reading your view on most topics always enriches my day.
    Translation: "Yes, I am a gutless coward".
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanLoader View Post
    I can't wait until our self proclaimed LE expert chimes in with, " Well the trooper was a little bit wrong but that old lady was definitely the problem here!
    A traffic stop for speeding in Travis County, Texas, led to the Tasering of a 72-year-old great-grandmother by a deputy. Feisty Kathryn Winkfein apparently so frightened the law-enforcement officer when she "used some profanity" and "got violent" that he felt it necessary to subdue her with a potentially dangerous jolt of electricity.

    Winkfein was reportedly doing 60 in a construction zone where the posted speed limit was 45 when she was pulled over. She was ticketed but declined to sign the ticket, leading the police officer to place her under arrest lest civilization collapse for want of the surrender of a penny's worth of ink.

    At this point, the stories diverge. According to Precinct 3 Constable Richard McCain, Winkfein cursed and refused to cooperate. She says nothing of the sort occurred. "I wasn't argumentative, I was not combative. This is a lie," the woman told a news reporter for Fox 7.

    Either way, it's difficult to see how the issuance of a speeding ticket to an elderly woman devolved to the point where a grown, trained law-enforcement officer could be considered justified in subjecting the speeder to an electric jolt intended to disrupt her nervous system -- no matter what command of profanity she displayed.

    Given that the speeding ticket had already been issued, it's also difficult to understand what purpose was served by prolonging the encounter and demanding a signature. A similar incident in Utah in 2007 between a state trooper and a motorist also resulted in a Tasering after the driver declined to sign a speeding ticket. In that case, the officer escalated the matter to a violent conclusion even though Utah law doesn't actually require a signature. Texas law apparently follows the same reasoning, considering the signature merely a promise to appear in court, not a necessity for the validity of the ticket itself.

    Jared Massey, the Utah motorist, was ultimately awarded $40,000 as compensation for the abuse he suffered at the hands of Trooper Jon Gardner.

    On another note, it seems like maybe, just maybe the LE trooper in Utah was also wrong, contrary to the learned opinions of our same expert!
    Did you see the video?

    I would've tased her. She was annoying.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Did you see the video?

    I would've tased her. She was annoying.
    One would think that when an officer gives you an order while holding a tazer, and warning you that he's going to use it, that it would be a good idea to do what he's telling you to do. At 72, she should know that.

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