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    Default Murder of Self Defense

    Found this in the Fort Worth Star Telegram.

    Pharmacist charged with murder for fatally shooting robber
    Authorities in Oklahoma City have charge a pharmacist with first-degree murder after he shot and killed a 16-year-old would-be robber.
    According to the Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater, Jerome Ersland was justified in shooting the teenager once in the head during the attempted robbery to protect himself and two women who were in the store.
    But Prater said Ersland went beyond self-protection when returned to the unconscious teen and shot him five more times in the abdomen as he lay on the floor.

    -- Lance Murray
    Posted at 12:21 PM in Homicides | Permalink

    Thought a Pharmacist would be smarter than this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by txchf1 View Post
    Found this in the Fort Worth Star Telegram.

    Pharmacist charged with murder for fatally shooting robber
    Authorities in Oklahoma City have charge a pharmacist with first-degree murder after he shot and killed a 16-year-old would-be robber.
    According to the Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater, Jerome Ersland was justified in shooting the teenager once in the head during the attempted robbery to protect himself and two women who were in the store.
    But Prater said Ersland went beyond self-protection when returned to the unconscious teen and shot him five more times in the abdomen as he lay on the floor.

    -- Lance Murray
    Posted at 12:21 PM in Homicides | Permalink

    Thought a Pharmacist would be smarter than this.
    how can they prove that he wasnt already dead when he shot him the other 5 times? Is it against the law to shoot a dead body?

    shouldnt this be in the Off-Duty forum?

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    Quote Originally Posted by txchf1 View Post
    Found this in the Fort Worth Star Telegram.

    Pharmacist charged with murder for fatally shooting robber
    Authorities in Oklahoma City have charge a pharmacist with first-degree murder after he shot and killed a 16-year-old would-be robber.
    According to the Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater, Jerome Ersland was justified in shooting the teenager once in the head during the attempted robbery to protect himself and two women who were in the store.
    But Prater said Ersland went beyond self-protection when returned to the unconscious teen and shot him five more times in the abdomen as he lay on the floor.

    -- Lance Murray
    Posted at 12:21 PM in Homicides | Permalink

    Thought a Pharmacist would be smarter than this.
    Was a firefighter or fire deprartment invloved in this?

    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    Default My mistake.

    I should have posted this in the Off Duty forums. Sorry. Still new and learning how to navigate this site. Will try to do better in the future.

    This did not involve any firefighter or fire department.

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    I feel bad for the pharmacist. IMO, self defense. He probably saved a few innocent lives by taking this kid off the streets!!!!
    A Fire Chief has ONLY 1 JOB and that's to take care of his fireman. EVERYTHING else falls under this.

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    Self defense constitutes taking the fight out of the man. If the fight wasn't out of him, then the pharmacist was justified.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    I will be blunt - this crap needs to stop. Turning victims into criminals

    That punk aka would be robber came in and provoked an incident. The would be victim exercised self protection. Did he go overboad, did he use to much force - maybe. Who knows, maybe the body twitched, maybe the pharmacist didn't know if he hit the guy or what. The fact remains if the would be robber didn't start this, he wouldn't be dead and the true victims of this wouldn't endure the scars from the incident and those yet to come in court.

    I say set the bar very high for excessive use of force by a civillian (non-leo) and make it so only the most blatant excesses carry a threat of prosecution.

    This pharmacist should be given a pat on the back not a set of silver bracelets and a court date....

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    The OKC DA stated the Pharmacist was justified in shooting the man the first time. The reason he is being charged is that he then ran after the second suspect, returned to the store, got a different gun, then shot the man five more times.

    This link is to the video of the DA's press conference and it the video from the store.

    http://krmg.com/blogs/the_krmg_morni...shoots-ki.html

    I think the DA has done right on this one. He has to file this even if the jury will find him not guilty.

    Matt

    Oklahoma's law only allows you to respond to the threat with deadly force to the point the threat is reduced (if my phrasing makes sense).
    Last edited by GhostRider73; 05-28-2009 at 08:48 PM.

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    It was self defense, with a charge of desecrating a corpse.

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    If the robber is no longer a threat, it's homicide. Plain and simple.

    The first bullet, okay. He was trying to rob you, and you could have been harmed. But once the dude is on the ground bleeding, why would you continue shooting them unless you have some sociopath tendencies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ActionGoose View Post
    If the robber is no longer a threat, it's homicide. Plain and simple.

    The first bullet, okay. He was trying to rob you, and you could have been harmed. But once the dude is on the ground bleeding, why would you continue shooting them unless you have some sociopath tendencies?
    Because his Homies will come to kill you and your family if you don't send a message. I say the guy went overboard when he switched guns. If someone is scared for thier life they might shoot a twitching body.
    FF/Paramedic

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    I'm on the pharmacist's side this time.

    Oklahoma pharmacist kills armed robber, saves the lives of his staff
    May 24, 6:32 AM · 41 comments

    A little before 6:00 p.m., last Tuesday, two armed men rushed into the Reliable Discount Pharmacy in Oklahoma City, and demanded money and drugs. The store had been robbed two years earlier, a robbery in which the store’s employees had been forced into a back room and severely beaten.

    However, this time the store had a security system with doors armed with magnetic locks, which could only be opened from the inside. The masked-men apparently knew this and waited for someone to exit, at which time they pushed a board in front of the closing door and rushed into the pharmacy.

    Once inside, they demanded all of the cash and narcotics, two female technicians ran into the back room. But the pharmacist, Jerome Ersland who wears a large back brace, and is still recovering from recent surgery, could not run. But he could defend himself.

    The robbers began shooting at him, with one bullet grazing him on the arm, he said he heard another round whiz past his ear.

    Ersland recalled: "All of a sudden, they started shooting. They were attempting to kill me, but they didn’t know I had a gun. They said, ‘You’re gonna die.’ That’s when one of them shot at me, and that’s when he got my hand.”

    Ersland grabbed the semi-automatic Kel-Tec .380 in his pocket.

    "And that’s when I started defending myself,” he said. "The first shot got him in the head, and that slowed him down so I could get my other gun.”

    Ersland also kept a much larger pistol in a nearby drawer, which he was able to retrieve, a Taurus Judge revolver. At that point, the second robber took off. However, the other robber was now getting up off of the floor, despite the head wound.

    Ersland emptied his clip into the chest of the wounded robber, who turned out to be 16-year-old Antwun Parker.

    "I went after the other guy, but he was real fast and I’m crippled,” said Ersland. Once outside, he saw a third black male sitting in a car with what appeared to be a shotgun.

    Ersland said: "I pulled out my ‘Judge’ and pointed it right between his eyes and he floored it.”

    Police arrested the man in the car which turned out to be stolen, after he crashed it a few blocks away. The other robber is still at large, he is described as a black male in his 20s, 5 feet, 7 inches tall, and weighing 175 pounds. The suspect was last seen wearing a red shirt and dark pants.

    Ersland went back into the store and found his two technicians safe but shaken.

    Ersland said: "I asked if the girls were all right, and they were in the back crying. I was glad to know they were alive. We were lucky and I’m glad I defended us, because I feel that a person has a right to defend themselves at their home or at their work. People deserve to be safe and not be afraid of people that want to take money when they don’t work for it.”

    As if the attempted robbery was not enough, an angry black mob gathered outside the pharmacy later that night, shouting and accusing Ersland of being a racist because he had killed the teenaged thug, who was black.

    "I just regret anybody would get killed. But if I wouldn’t have been here, there would have been three people killed — the other pharmacist and the two techs.”

    "I was able to return fire and protect the girls’ lives. God was helping me.”

    Here are a few facts about armed Americans:

    -Armed citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as the police do every year in this country (1,527 to 606).

    -A 1996 University of Chicago study concluded that states which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rates by 8.5 percent, rapes by 5 percent, aggravated assaults by 7 percent, and robbery by 3 percent.

    -According to the National Safety Council, with guns being used 2.5 million times a year in self defense against criminals, firearms are actually used more than 80 times more often to protect lives, rather than to take lives.

    -A 1979 Justice Department study concluded that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32 percent were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3 percent of the attempted rapes were actually committed.

    -Another Justice Department study found that 57 percent of felons agreed that “criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running the police.”
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Origianally I would have said that the shots to the abdomen were uncalled for, but if one son of a b!tch is stupid enough to get up off the floor after a head shot (probably a grazing wound) then the Pharmacist did what he needed to in order to ensure his survival.

    One less thug, one less piece of human excrement to rob next time.

    I refuse to lay down and rely on localk law enforcement to defend and protect me. They are too busy doing other things to be everywhere at once and 3-4 minutes on the end of a 9-1-1 call is a very long time.

    As for the .380.........Go big or go home. I much prefer a .45.

    And as the old axim goes, better to be judged by 6 than carried by 12 - in Oklahoma this DA will likely lose.

    I'll have to swing a couple bucks to this guy's defense fund.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by ActionGoose View Post
    If the robber is no longer a threat, it's homicide. Plain and simple.

    The first bullet, okay. He was trying to rob you, and you could have been harmed. But once the dude is on the ground bleeding, why would you continue shooting them unless you have some sociopath tendencies?
    When a one person kills another person it is always homicide. The question is it justifiable homicide.

    FB

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    Psssssstttt....

    And as the old axim goes, better to be judged by 6 than carried by 12
    Caskets have 6 handles.

    Juries have 12 people.

    Other way around. But I won't tell anyone.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    pharmacist should have hung that little piece of **** from the front of his store! Let people know the only crooks we tolerate in this country is our own goverment!

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    The charge is valid...however, I wouldn't charge him.

    I'm guessing that the reason he got the other gun is because most people that start shooting empty their guns. He was probably out of rounds in the first gun and needed the other one to be ready for anything else.

    If I was on the jury I don't know what I'd do. the letter of the law would probably find him guilty, but my personal ethics says he did right.
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    With the larger story, looks like a clean shoot.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    The first shot was justified self defense. The second shot was intent to kill (walking past him, changing weapons). There was no longer a threat. I would have been more threatened by the guy that got away who could very easily turn around and come back for revenge. Now, that being said, I agree that he was not of sound mind and body after having experienced the shock of a being robbed at gunpoint. i would stress that in his case and seek to have charges dismissed. Also, there is no way to prove at this point whether the first shot killed and the others were post-mortem (I think, I'm no medical examiner). That leads to doubt whether the "unjustified" shots caused homicide- thereby clearing him of charges.

    Who knows though, We'll find out in court soon enough. Interesting case and good debate discussion.

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    The DA states that the reason he is charged is because the suspect was NOT trying to get up and was in fact unconscious when he was shot. Shooting a person who is no longer a thread is the reason the case was escalated from self-defense to murder. The following is an interesting follow up article on the case. Reading all the news it really sounds like the DA is trying very hard to keep a level head and look out for the pharmacist and make sure he is treated fairly and gets a fair trial, even though he is the one that charged him.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Druggist Jerome Ersland released after supporter arranges bail

    RELEASE PHARMACIST IS BARRED FROM GUN ACCESS, DESPITE REQUEST

    BY NOLAN CLAY
    Published: May 29, 2009

    A pharmacist charged with first-degree murder was barred Thursday from any access to guns, knives or other weapons while out on $100,000 bail.

    Jerome Jay Ersland, 57, of Chickasha was released from the Oklahoma County jail Thursday afternoon after a supporter arranged for the bail, defense attorney Irven Box said.

    District Judge Tammy Bass-LeSure set the bail amount. Most defendants charged with first-degree murder in Oklahoma County are denied bail, but prosecutors did not object to Ersland being freed.

    The judge ordered the weapons restriction after she watched a video of the pharmacist shooting robbery suspect Antwun Parker, 16, on May 19 at Reliable Discount Pharmacy in south Oklahoma City.

    In a twist in the already unusual case, District Attorney David Prater asked the judge to allow Ersland to have access to a gun at work in case the pharmacy is robbed again. The prosecutor said his position "sounds crazy” but he insisted that under the law Ersland has the right to defend himself and others at the pharmacy. At one point, spectators in the courtroom clapped in support of his statements.

    The district attorney said he worried crooks now will know it is "open season” at the pharmacy if Ersland is there. He also said Ersland could be fired.

    Prater said the pharmacist would not be in court if the two robbers had not come into the drugstore. The judge said, "Then, why did you charge him, Mr. Prater?” The district attorney replied that Ersland went too far.

    A clearly irritated Prater also told the judge, "I’m the one who filed the charge so my butt’s on the line.”

    The judge, though, refused to change the restriction, saying Ersland could get another job.

    "I am going to limit his access to guns,” the judge said. "If someone wants to be around him, they are not going to have access to guns.”

    Prater told her, "That’s wrong.” After the hearing, the district attorney said to Ersland, "I want you to be treated fairly.”

    The pharmacist was charged Wednesday with first-degree murder for shooting the suspect five more times in the abdomen after the suspect allegedly was incapacitated from a shot to the head. Prosecutors said Parker was unarmed and unconscious on his back when he was shot the last five times. Ersland contends he acted in self-defense when the suspect tried to get up.

    A police detective said Ersland lied to the police and news reporters about the shooting. Ersland, for instance, said the robbers shot at him. "Fortunately, God made them miss me, except for this minor scratch,” he told The Oklahoman. "I was able to return fire and protect the girls’ lives. God was helping me.” Prosecutors say there is no evidence anyone but Ersland fired inside the store.

    Two of Parker’s aunts attended the bail hearing Thursday.

    "We’re not mad. We’re trying to understand,” said one aunt, Sharon Jennings of Oklahoma City. "We don’t understand none of it. He’s not that type of kid. ... He was scared of guns. He was scared of the dark. ... I think it was peer pressure. Somebody talked him into it.”

    Ersland is restricted to his home except for trips to work, church, court, his attorney’s office, the grocery store, restaurants and the doctor’s office. Ersland is recovering from recent back surgery and wears a brace. His attorney said he is on morphine. Ersland has said he is a veteran who was wounded during the first war in Iraq.

    Ersland is getting support from gun-rights advocates, veterans and others. Mike Manning, a Vietnam veteran who came to court Thursday, said, "We feel this individual is being railroaded.”
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Good News Link

    The link has a few views of the surveillance camera. Here is the problem that the DA is having with the situation:

    Guys come in and rob him - OK
    You shoot in self defense - OK
    The suspect is down - OK
    You walk by the suspect (and according to the surveillance footage you don't even give him a second look) - OK
    You get a second gun, walk back to the suspect on the ground, and shoot him at point plank range five more times - Not OK.

    The big question is going to be this: Did he shoot him 5 more times after being on the ground because he thought he was still a threat, or did he shoot him thinking "This will teach you to rob my Fing store!"

    There is a line between Self Defense, and Vigilante Justice. And I believe that that is the question here.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Unless there's an angle that shows the dead guy's actions (or lack of actions), the pharmacist is going to walk free and clear. Putting extra rounds in someone down and out is wrong, but absent any other video then you go with the story as told by the guy that wasn't committing armed robbery.

    The DA's trying to play both sides of the fence. Charge him to satisfy the mob but then try to make nice with the pharmacist. It won't work and should cost him his job at the next election.

    Why didn't he take it to a grand jury and let them decide?

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    I am still on the side of the pharmacist.

    I didn't look at the video provided as it may or may not be complete. It has been said that we should let 1000 guilty people walk rather than imprison one innocent. In this case, the blame for the death is clearly on the punk commiting the crime. Did the pharmacist over-react. Maybe, probably doesn't matter to me. He didn't set out to commit a crime. He reacted in a very hostile situation. (I'd even say this if he used excessive force - he was shot at for god's sake!)

    As for the Mob - somebody needs to man up and tell them that 'The boy tried to kill 3 people and we don't tolerate that. If you think that's ok then maybe you need to re-evaluate your priorities. Race has nothing to do with it - the gun he used and fired in the commision of the crime is what did it. Of course, if they want to make it about race, ask them if its normal behaivor for all black people to shoot at people? That is after all what they are argueing about - thier poor innocent gun toting thug getting gunned down by a white guy right'. If we continue to give credibility to that BS then we'll have more Rodney king like riots and more discrimination based on race.

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    Just some quick updated info

    The 16 yr old that was shot was not armed. The 14 yr old that ran was the one with a gun. The police have did not find any evidence of shots being fired by anyone but the pharmacist.
    The 14 yr old is in custody along with an older (30's) man who was somehow involved. I forget how.

    Matt

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFNG View Post
    I am still on the side of the pharmacist.
    I'd even say this if he used excessive force - he was shot at for god's sake!
    That is part of the problem the DA is having right now, the pharmacist says he was shot at and was even hit in the arm. But it appears that there is no evidence that anybody fired any shots other than the pharmacist.

    I live in Oklahoma County, and I have to say that the DA really is very pro-gun rights. He spoke out in favor of the "Stand your Ground" law that was passed not too long ago. It is really somewhat of a surprise that he charged the pharmacist, and just because of the DA's history I would have to think that there is some good evidence to back this up.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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