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  1. #1
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    Default standard or initial flow for 1 3/4 on structure fires

    Ok, here is another question for you folks out there.
    What are you normally flowing for GPM on your preconnect or initial attack lines?
    ie, are you flowing 150 gpm through 200 feet of 1 3/4" hose with a 100 psi fog nozzle, or what is your current setup/ discharge gallonage?

    Thanks again, will be by in a couple of days to see where we are at.

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    For my engine we are set up with...

    #1 100 ft. red rubber 1.5" w/ TFT auto (trash/auto fires) = 100 gpm Pump set to 125 psi

    #2 250 ft. 1 3/4" w/ 15/16ths SB = 185 gpm Pump set at 170 (usually broken and connected to side discharges for shorter lengths)

    #3 250 ft 2.5" w/ 1 1/4" SB = 326 gpm Pump set at 125 psi (usually broken and connected to side discharges for shorter lengths)

    #4 Static Bed of 400 ft 3" for blitzfire flows 500 gpm w/ 1.5" tip (50 NP + 25 Appl FL + 25 FL per 100 ft.)
    Originally Posted by madden01
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    In my humble opinion a medium sized line, 1 1/2. 1 3/4 or 2 inch, should flow a minimum of 150 gpm. My volly FD uses 2 inch and we flow 160 gpm and 200 gpm from our low pressure combo nozzle and 300 from the slug.

    Personally I like going interior with 200 gpm flow. The only thing that happens flowing that much water if you come across a small fire is you shut the nozzle off faster because the fire is dead faster!

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    We run 125psi CAFS at around 180gpm though a combo nozzle on a 200' 1 3/4 preconnect. I don't remember the specifics but it was one of the early nozzles designed to work with CAFS.

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    1 3/4" hose. 200 gpm @ 75 psi nozzles.
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    Personally I like going interior with 200 gpm flow. The only thing that happens flowing that much water if you come across a small fire is you shut the nozzle off faster because the fire is dead faster!
    And if there are any victims trapped, you can just lean to the side and let 'em float out the front door.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    And if there are any victims trapped, you can just lean to the side and let 'em float out the front door.
    Huh? We use the same amount of water as a smaller nozzle just faster because of the high flow so the fire goes out faster. A greater nozzle flow does not automatically equate more water damage. If it does you need to retrain your nozzle operators to shut down the nozzle faster.

    Our guys are trained that the nozzle doesn't do water damage, THEY DO. When the fire darkens down they shut down, let it vent, and then finish extinguishment. Nozzle control, not flow is the villian. I feel much better with the capability to do high flow if needed to save myself and my crew. We have not had a complaint about water damage yet in a savable building, so our record speaks for itself.

    Although, maybe your post is meant to be humor and I misread it. It has been a long day and I am damn tired. Vacation is over, back on shift tomorrow.

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    We've haven't done any flow testing with our new nozzles (Akron SabreJets), but based on the info in Elkhart's smoothbore flow chart thing, we're around at least 180gpm with a 15/16" opening and 1-3/4 hose (150' usually). We're probably a little higher than that at times, I think some of our pump operators forget the new nozzles get pumped 50 psi less than the old ones.

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    200' of 1 3/4", 75 psi nozzles, between 160-170 gpm. If you remove the adjustable tip, between 170-180 gpm from the smooth slug.

    Pump pressure is around 130.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    My volly FD uses 2 inch and we flow 160 gpm and 200 gpm from our low pressure combo nozzle and 300 from the slug.

    I wish we had two inch as an option; we have inch and three-quarter, and a few of our engines now have a two and a half preconnect, which is nice.

    How easy is it for your volley guys to manage the two inch? I'm trying to slam them, just curious as to your manpower, and how it relates to operating a two inch line.
    I know that the two and a half can be a beast. Have you found the two inch to be a good exposure line?

    In the "old days", our two and half was our supply line and exposure lines, as well as the occasional attack line.
    Since then, three inch has been adopted as our supply/exposure line. There is nothing more fun than trying to horse a three inch around!

    However, since we are about 25 years behind the curve, we are just now getting LDH on our rigs. I guess I would like to see us phase out the two and a half, if it gives enough knock down as an exposure. The numbers are good, but I prefer an honest, real world experience factor.

    Is the two-inch enough easier to handle on a company level to justify changing, and does it give enough horsepower to work as an exposure line?

    Unfortunately, this is stemming from a "do more with less" thought process.
    Last edited by jasper45; 06-01-2009 at 09:27 AM.

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    Although, maybe your post is meant to be humor and I misread it. It has been a long day and I am damn tired. Vacation is over, back on shift tomorrow.
    Well, yeah. Seriously, though; this may be tactic The Great Educator might consider. Why search interior, when you can just float them out with water?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    I wish we had two inch as an option; we have inch and three-quarter, and a few of our engines now have a two and a half preconnect, which is nice.

    How easy is it for your volley guys to manage the two inch? I'm trying to slam them, just curious as to your manpower, and how it relates to operating a two inch line.

    We generally assume that any attack line will be operated, at least initially, by 2 guys. So far that hasn't been a problem. Obviously if we are making a second floor or making a lot of corners we need more than 2 but again so far it has not been a problem. The 160-200 gpm flow can be handled in an advancing attack mode. Switching to the slug and flow around 300 gpm is handled in a hit, shut down advance hit mode. This is for interior work of course.

    I know that the two and a half can be a beast. Have you found the two inch to be a good exposure line?

    My one concern is the reach of the slug tip. It seems to break up sooner than a regular smoothbore tip and my educated guess is the length of the slug is the issue. If I had my way we would be using a stacked tip set-up with a 1 1/4 inch base tip finished off with a 1 inch tip. I think the longer tip would solve some of the reach and breaking up issues. Reach is still in the 50 to 70 foot range.

    In the "old days", our two and half was our supply line and exposure lines, as well as the occasional attack line.
    Since then, three inch has been adopted as our supply/exposure line. There is nothing more fun than trying to horse a three inch around!

    3 inch attack lines seem silly to me...Well, unless you are using one of the new pocket monitors so you can take advantage of the extra flow capability of the 3 inch hose. We have an Elkhart RAM and that is a sweet little tool. One guy can advance a dry 3 inch and set it up and flow 500 gpm all by himself.

    However, since we are about 25 years behind the curve, we are just now getting LDH on our rigs. I guess I would like to see us phase out the two and a half, if it gives enough knock down as an exposure. The numbers are good, but I prefer an honest, real world experience factor.

    It is good enough that for us it is our only handline size and we are comfortable with the flow capability. We have used it successfully on house fires, barns fires, and vehicle fires. And we are confident that on the few industrial or commercial buildings we have the flows will be adequate. We are flowing on the high end more than most flow through their 2 1/2 inch lines.

    Is the two-inch enough easier to handle on a company level to justify changing, and does it give enough horsepower to work as an exposure line?

    YES, it is. Over 2 1/2 and definitely over 3 inch. The one limitation is hose length. We have found that for 300 gpm longer than 300 feet needs to be fed with a bigger line. We run 200 and 300 foot preconnects and then have a deadlay bed of 3 inch 500 feet long with a wye and 100 feet of 2 inch attached for longer lays.

    As for exposures, see my comments above.


    Unfortunately, this is stemming from a "do more with less" thought process.

    Dude we are all in that mode. Welcome to my world, both career and volly.
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    Good luck My Brother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    3 inch attack lines seem silly to me...

    It is, but there is an unfortunate mental defect on the department here. I am sure that someday a company will try and use our LDH as an exposure line. (a little tongue in cheek there)

    The three inch was never intended to be used as an exposure line, as they left a box of 2.5 on the back for that purpose. But, you know how it goes; pull up on a defensive fire, if the 2.5 is good, the 3 inch has to be better, right?

    And the rest is, as they say, history.

    Thanks for the info!

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    Columbia, SC:

    1 3/4" flowing 150 gpm@40 psi Nozzle Pressure.

    This can be upped to 200 gpm @75 psi.

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    Fyred,

    Also seeing the same with slug tips. Not as "tight" of a stream as a tip with a longer bore. I would suggest trying the 1" tip in comparison, based on the nozzle tip not exceeding half the diameter of the hose principle. Just compare the streams of the different slugs and see how the streams look. I found that comparing the 1 1/8" slug flow to a 1" slug flow on a 2" line showed a better stream quality with the 1". Just food for thought to try on a quiet day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    It is, but there is an unfortunate mental defect on the department here. I am sure that someday a company will try and use our LDH as an exposure line. (a little tongue in cheek there)

    The three inch was never intended to be used as an exposure line, as they left a box of 2.5 on the back for that purpose. But, you know how it goes; pull up on a defensive fire, if the 2.5 is good, the 3 inch has to be better, right?

    And the rest is, as they say, history.

    Thanks for the info!
    Do you know what brand your 1 3/4" hose is? If not, can you check it out and report back. Might have some good news.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    Fyred,

    Also seeing the same with slug tips. Not as "tight" of a stream as a tip with a longer bore. I would suggest trying the 1" tip in comparison, based on the nozzle tip not exceeding half the diameter of the hose principle. Just compare the streams of the different slugs and see how the streams look. I found that comparing the 1 1/8" slug flow to a 1" slug flow on a 2" line showed a better stream quality with the 1". Just food for thought to try on a quiet day.
    We feel it is directly linked to the length of the slug tip. If we put a regular 1 1/4 inch tip on the nozzle the problem mostly disappears.

    For interior work the stream degradation is not significant enough to be a problem.

    Like I said if I had my way we would have a double stack set up with a 1 1/4 base nozzle and a 1 inch tip as the initial nozzle. But unfortunately it isn't up to me!!

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    For our non-CAF 1 3/4" lines, we currently use TFT Handline "50-350gpm @ 100psi" nozzles, flowing...who knows, minute-to-minute, day-to-day...

    I'm hoping to see a switch at some point, with a 150-180 gpm initial target flow, using either a 75 psi Elkhart Chief fixed-gallonage fog break-away tip, or a 7/8" or 15/16" SB (preference for the second). Behind either of these would be a 1 1/8" SB, giving us a 250 gpm option at moment's notice for heavy fire conditions. IMHO, a 1 3/4" line with no intention of flowing more than 150 gpm might as well switch back to 1 1/2" and save some weight.



    Has anybody used the Elkhart shut-off's with a full ball valve and integral smoothbore? If their stream quality is not worse than a slug, I'm thinking that would be a good option, especially if the low-flow 150gpm tip is a fog (for length savings).

    Unfortunately I can't find a 1 1/8" & 15/16" (or 7/8") dual-stacked tip anywhere (Akron, Elkhart), which is unfortunate, as that would be the ideal setup.

    I may be wrong about this, but I seem to recall that Ft. Lauderdale, FL was using a ball shutoff, 1 1/2" stream shaper, full-length threaded 7/8" tip, and a LP Elkhart Chief fog tip as standard on their 1 3/4" lines a little while back. I may be remembering incorrectly, but I know it made for a very long nozzle - but probably excellent stream quality for the SB!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    For our non-CAF 1 3/4" lines, we currently use TFT Handline "50-350gpm @ 100psi" nozzles, flowing...who knows, minute-to-minute, day-to-day...

    I'm hoping to see a switch at some point, with a 150-180 gpm initial target flow, using either a 75 psi Elkhart Chief fixed-gallonage fog break-away tip, or a 7/8" or 15/16" SB (preference for the second). Behind either of these would be a 1 1/8" SB, giving us a 250 gpm option at moment's notice for heavy fire conditions. IMHO, a 1 3/4" line with no intention of flowing more than 150 gpm might as well switch back to 1 1/2" and save some weight.



    Has anybody used the Elkhart shut-off's with a full ball valve and integral smoothbore? If their stream quality is not worse than a slug, I'm thinking that would be a good option, especially if the low-flow 150gpm tip is a fog (for length savings).

    Unfortunately I can't find a 1 1/8" & 15/16" (or 7/8") dual-stacked tip anywhere (Akron, Elkhart), which is unfortunate, as that would be the ideal setup.

    I may be wrong about this, but I seem to recall that Ft. Lauderdale, FL was using a ball shutoff, 1 1/2" stream shaper, full-length threaded 7/8" tip, and a LP Elkhart Chief fog tip as standard on their 1 3/4" lines a little while back. I may be remembering incorrectly, but I know it made for a very long nozzle - but probably excellent stream quality for the SB!
    You can put a slug tip behind a plain smooth bore tip for any of numerous combinations of smooth bore tips. Also, you can get the integrated smoothbore tip style nozzles and out a smaller plain tip on the end. Akron Saber http://www.akronbrass.com/uploadedFi...Pipes_Tips.pdf, TFT VIT and Elkhart makes one I believe.

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    All you guys with nozzle pressures below 100, are you using smooth bore attack nozzles?
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    No. Adjustable nozzle. Akron, 75psi/175gpm.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    All you guys with nozzle pressures below 100, are you using smooth bore attack nozzles?
    Nope, Elkhart Chiefs 200 gpm at 75 psi.

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    Elkharts at 125 psi pump. About 160 gpm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    All you guys with nozzle pressures below 100, are you using smooth bore attack nozzles?
    Yeah, kinda.

    We're using the Akron SabreJet nozzle. For fire attack purposes, it's pretty much just a big smoothbore nozzle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Yeah, kinda.

    We're using the Akron SabreJet nozzle. For fire attack purposes, it's pretty much just a big smoothbore nozzle.
    Are you using the BJ on the 2.5" too?

    What size tips on the 1 3/4" and 2.5" 's?
    Originally Posted by madden01
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